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Sinteres posted:Most of France's Jews survived the Holocaust, which may not have been the case if Germany had occupied the entire country. Not to give anyone wrong ideas who's less well versed in the Holocaust, most jews with French citizenship survived. Vichy bureaucrats were happy to cooperate with the Germans when it came to Jewish refugees in France. Also, a few thousand more were denaturalized and handed over because they weren't French enough.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:03
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DandyLion posted:Yep this seems to be the case. Haven't seen any super flankers or T-90's in any of the leaked vids... i am sure i will be proven wrong, but i supsect they dont have that many outside prototypes. they probably have like 10-20 in all.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:03
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https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1497217148267253760 Kinda hard to make out, but it sounds like the usual "don't join NATO"?
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Feb 25, 2022 17:05
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TulliusCicero posted:My question continues to be where the hell is Ukranian air landing? Poland? While not ideal, war is never ideal, and so they could be landing almost anywhere that has paved or concrete roadways, etc. This was actually part of why Eisenhower wanted the US Interstate system - it would foster troop/material transport in the event of invasion, but also the roadways could act as makeshift runways for aircraft. Edit: Also, there was a myth about requirements for the Interstate to make it more readily usable by planes; this wasn't true, in part because it would make for obvious targets. It was always more of a "in a pinch you could land here, refuel and re-arm, and we'll keep moving the location of these so they're not easily targetable". Canned Sunshine fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Feb 25, 2022 |
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Feb 25, 2022 17:05
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SourKraut posted:One caveat on all of this is that Hitler had a... sympathetic view toward most of Western Europe and the UK, because he viewed them as descended from the same historical racial groups as the Germanic peoples, i.e. while they weren't Aryans like the true Germans were, they were still related. The Vichy government was evil, I fully agree with that. And yeah, I agree with Germany not treating the West the same way he treated the East. I'll admit that there may have been factors I didn't consider, so maybe the surrender didn't save as many lives as I believed it did, and it's probably a topic I should research further before making any more claims (or better yet I'll just drop it altogether and apologize if I gave offense--I didn't mean to minimize any of the crimes of the occupation government).
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Feb 25, 2022 17:05
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drunkill posted:Sending in the canon fodder first, newbies and older equipment to soak up the AT attacks, then send in the seasoned troops in convoys, presumably with the newer tanks, not the cold war era stuff. I have no military background, but isn't that actually a lot? You don't commit 100%, you need reserves and logistics and units to guard rear areas etc.. Or does it mean 1/3 of frontline combat troops?
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Feb 25, 2022 17:05
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Edmond Dantes posted:https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1497217148267253760 Yeah this is gonna be received well as Russia actively invades a country. https://twitter.com/Kivelart/status/1497232550447796224?s=20&t=1pESKCG9JXB8HZ6Lc9kxAg
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Feb 25, 2022 17:06
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So it looks like we should see a really huge push for Kyiv today? Are we expecting Russia to roll right through or what?
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Feb 25, 2022 17:07
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Apologies for the silly question, but wtf is a 'tankie'? I gather that it doesn't refer to tank crew, and the context make it sound like some kind of US slang for people falling pretty far to the right of the spectrum, but that's as far as I can infer.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:07
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e: ^^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanki...%80%93Leninism. Edmond Dantes posted:
Yeah it's the usual 'don't join NATO' except that as of 4am yesterday when Russia uses the phrase 'political and military consequences' at you you should probably sit up and pay a lot more attention than you did previously.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:07
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Judakel posted:I think this is all for domestic consumption. He knows what he has to do to demilitarize Ukraine, but a public appeal is a better look at home. We’ve had corpse photos and both government and journalists reporting that they got mostly killed and lost control of the airport as of yesterday 22:30 local time. Current situation is unknown, Russia did publicly brag earlier in the day that it took it again with 200 helicopter assault force (of which I’ve seen precisely 0 videos so far).
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Feb 25, 2022 17:08
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Edmond Dantes posted:https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1497217148267253760 The whole line of "there will be vague military/political/technical consequences if Finland joins NATO" has been their official line as far as I can remember. Now they just cannot actually do anything right now since they are maxed out in Ukraine so this seems more like an argument for NATO. Hearing rumors that a lot of Finnish politicians have done a complete 180 on NATO membership in the last 36 hours.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:08
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punishedkissinger posted:So it looks like we should see a really huge push for Kyiv today? Are we expecting Russia to roll right through or what? No, at best they'll try to encircle. Kyiv is huge and heavily populated and the Ukrainian army is actively moving into the city. cinci zoo sniper posted:We’ve had corpse photos and both government and journalists reporting that they got mostly killed and lost control of the airport as of yesterday 22:30 local time. Current situation is unknown, Russia did publicly brag earlier in the day that it took it again with 200 helicopter assault force (of which I’ve seen precisely 0 videos so far). Yeah, worth noting that SOMEONE would have a video of 200 helicopters. Not a sight. There were videos of about 7-8 helicopters, likely Russian, yesterday. But nowhere ear 200.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:08
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CommieGIR posted:Yeah this is gonna be received well as Russia actively invades a country. Holy poo poo that Tweet. 
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Feb 25, 2022 17:09
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punishedkissinger posted:So it looks like we should see a really huge push for Kyiv today? Are we expecting Russia to roll right through or what? Nobody has any idea what to expect, and if they're telling you otherwise they're lying.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:09
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FishMcCool posted:Apologies for the silly question, but wtf is a 'tankie'? I gather that it doesn't refer to tank crew, and the context make it sound like some kind of US slang for people falling pretty far to the right of the spectrum, but that's as far as I can infer.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:09
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FishMcCool posted:Apologies for the silly question, but wtf is a 'tankie'? I gather that it doesn't refer to tank crew, and the context make it sound like some kind of US slang for people falling pretty far to the right of the spectrum, but that's as far as I can infer. Stalinist
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Feb 25, 2022 17:09
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FishMcCool posted:Apologies for the silly question, but wtf is a 'tankie'? I gather that it doesn't refer to tank crew, and the context make it sound like some kind of US slang for people falling pretty far to the right of the spectrum, but that's as far as I can infer. It's probably lame to share a Wikipedia link, but it seemed like the best quick summary of the term. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanki...%80%93Leninism.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:09
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wetdela posted:What terms can Ukraine reasonably extract from a bilateral ceasefire agreement with Moscow? An open ended question. More time.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:10
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MikeC posted:These asinine Hitler comparisons ignore basic geopolitical realities. Hitler long before he got into power dreamed of Lebensraum in 1933 and said so publicly. In any who is giving in to what? Even if Putin intends to go for more, NATO sold you out. Why would you die for their security? The Hitler comparison is not irrelevant. Putin just two days ago gave a speech about "Greater Russia," called the Ukrainian nation-state a fiction, and very clearly was waxing longingly about re-establishing the Soviet "Empire." Yes, NATO countries are at risk, for a lot of reasons... while we have 'drawn a red line' with NATO territory, Putin is not exactly rational. It remains to be seen if he views his success at keeping NATO 'out' of his Ukrainian adventure as sign that, when it comes down to it, NATO will balk at actually using its military to defend NATO states and 'risk' the nuclear war he keeps threatening. On top of that, you seem to have blinders for Europe. The former Soviet "Empire" extended far beyond Europe. If Ukraine capitulates, what happens if Russia goes after Georgia again, but this time for keeps? What if Putin sees that NATO will only sanction him and not intervene, and all it will take is a couple days fighting before his non-NATO target capitulates? What happens when a fully Findalized Kazakhstan if forced back into the Russian Federation? What about Kyrgyzstan? What about Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, and Armenia? There is a far greater threat that you are giving a dictator a 'free pass' at territorial acquisition through military means than you seem to think there is if Ukraine just rolls over after a couple days of fighting. ZombieLenin fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Feb 25, 2022 |
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Feb 25, 2022 17:11
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didn't Russia drain actually quite a lot of its regional forces to put all those troops on Ukraine's borders - if it all gets committed then who's manning Kamchatka can't rely on nukes for everything; that existential calculus applies in reverse too those troops have to be there to hedge against a total fumble but they're kind of a fleet in being
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Feb 25, 2022 17:11
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TulliusCicero posted:Must be my "Anglo brain" malfunctioning then, but it seems like this "invasion" was hastily thrown together with no planning at the whim of a petty despicably evil despot Your anglo brain is absolutely malfunctioning. Its literally been one day. Ukraine is the second largest country in Europe. Its larger than France, larger than Germany. It has a population of tens of millions and a massive army. This is the largest conventional war in Europe since 1945. Obviously the Russians couldnt Desert Storm the Ukrainians, losses dont mean their invasion was "thrown together". Theyre still an enormous threat as you can tell by the absolute loads of Ukrainian people who are suffering tremendously right now.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:11
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CommieGIR posted:Yeah this is gonna be received well as Russia actively invades a country.  uncleTomOfFinland posted:The whole line of "there will be vague military/political/technical consequences if Finland joins NATO" has been their official line as far as I can remember. Now they just cannot actually do anything right now since they are maxed out in Ukraine so this seems more like an argument for NATO. Yeah I wonder if this is going to be a good time for other countries to stiff Russia while they are too tied up to do anything about it.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:11
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FishMcCool posted:Apologies for the silly question, but wtf is a 'tankie'? I gather that it doesn't refer to tank crew, and the context make it sound like some kind of US slang for people falling pretty far to the right of the spectrum, but that's as far as I can infer. Refers to the split within UK communists over the Soviets repressing the 1956 Hungarian Revolution with tanks. The pro-suppression "tankies" were the ones all in on authoritarian and using force to crush dissent. Really into Stalin, that sort of thing.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:11
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EvilHawk posted:Of course, I'm weary that we're only hearing this from Ukrainian-aligned sources and it might be different in reality. I think this is an important point. This thread is fast moving, so its difficult to keep track of everything that is posted, but most of the social media posts, videos, commentator pieces, etc, are posted either by the Ukrainian government, people, or by commentators sympathetic to them (understandably so). We are only getting an incomplete picture from one side here, and that may be giving us a misleading (and potentially overly optimistic) perception of how things are going. Whilst a lot of Russian media content/propaganda about the war is almost certainly unreliable trash - its still useful in some ways, even if only for presenting a picture of how the war is perceived by the other side (or how they want it to be perceived). Its difficult to get used to, as in most recent conflicts of this scale, its usually the US (plus allies) who are doing the attacking, and they aren't shy about engaging with the (Western) media. We're not seeing that with Russia here, who don't seem to be engaging with foreign media as much (plus language barrier, etc), so have a lot less to go on from their side.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:11
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FishMcCool posted:Apologies for the silly question, but wtf is a 'tankie'? I gather that it doesn't refer to tank crew, and the context make it sound like some kind of US slang for people falling pretty far to the right of the spectrum, but that's as far as I can infer. My understanding is that a tankie is someone who is a big fan of the Soviet Union and authoritarian forms of communism. Ostensibly they are communists, but basically just big fans of tanks, soviet era propaganda, and authoritarianism.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:12
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Have Some Flowers! posted:Kinda, politically actually super far left but pro-authoritarian and completely blind to the past failures of the USSR and communism generally. Ok fair enough, I read it the other way around then. Thanks for the clarification everyone. o/
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Feb 25, 2022 17:12
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FishMcCool posted:Apologies for the silly question, but wtf is a 'tankie'? I gather that it doesn't refer to tank crew, and the context make it sound like some kind of US slang for people falling pretty far to the right of the spectrum, but that's as far as I can infer. Roughly it came from apologizing away Soviet Union rolling in tanks to provide 'brotherly help' to regimes under danger (I guess Hungary and Czechoslovakia mostly).
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Feb 25, 2022 17:12
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wetdela posted:Tell me you don’t know any Ukrainians without telling me you don’t know any Ukrainians. Also, that you don't know the rich Ukrainian history of fighting Russian incursions. Ukrainians have been defending against Russia since before the Incan Empire. Also, feel free to fact check that since I didn't look it up, but my point remains.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:12
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FishMcCool posted:Apologies for the silly question, but wtf is a 'tankie'? I gather that it doesn't refer to tank crew, and the context make it sound like some kind of US slang for people falling pretty far to the right of the spectrum, but that's as far as I can infer. Anti-west authoritarian apologist
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Feb 25, 2022 17:12
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Edmond Dantes posted:Kinda hard to make out, but it sounds like the usual "don't join NATO"? But that can't be! Just couple of weeks ago I heard Lavrov explicitly say that Finland and Sweden are sovereign states who make their own decisions, could he have lied to us??? 
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Feb 25, 2022 17:12
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https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPR/status/1497227330414129155?s=20&t=o7MGAVW0YmpSsLaIFsYsPQ
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Feb 25, 2022 17:13
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Shes Not Impressed posted:https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPR/status/1497227330414129155?s=20&t=o7MGAVW0YmpSsLaIFsYsPQ What's happened there? Almost looks like shrapnel from something that got shot down landed on a building?
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Feb 25, 2022 17:14
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 After like 7 pages of rehashing WW2 history, I’d like people still interested talking about it to stop for a moment and clearly restate how the conversation contributes to the thread topic, or at least to the argument they’re having with someone.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:14
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FishMcCool posted:Apologies for the silly question, but wtf is a 'tankie'? I gather that it doesn't refer to tank crew, and the context make it sound like some kind of US slang for people falling pretty far to the right of the spectrum, but that's as far as I can infer. Historical usage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanki...%80%93Leninism. In recent years, in the 21st century, the term has expanded to include people who identify as left and support non-Marxist authoritarian regimes that they view as standing in opposition to "The West" in general. Regimes like Putin, the CCP, and Bashar al Assad in Syria for example.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:14
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https://news.bloomberglaw.com/banking-law/chinese-state-banks-restrict-financing-for-russian-commodities Looks like China isn't going to help Russia much with avoiding sanctions.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:14
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Kyiv being so close to the Belarus border is not doing them any favors, but it's not like they weren't aware of that.KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:that just means that the airspace is contested and neither side has air superiority
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Feb 25, 2022 17:14
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TulliusCicero posted:My question continues to be where the hell is Ukranian air landing? Poland? very doubtful as I don't think Poland/NATO are all that keen on further provocations Repairing airfields is not super difficult. Closing an airfield is easy temporarily but requires persistent attention and bombing to keep it closed.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:14
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CommieGIR posted:Yeah this is gonna be received well as Russia actively invades a country. Mannerheim looking through the window at that tweet: "YES... HA HA HA... YES!" William Bear fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Feb 25, 2022 |
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Feb 25, 2022 17:15
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TulliusCicero posted:Must be my "Anglo brain" malfunctioning then, but it seems like this "invasion" was hastily thrown together with no planning at the whim of a petty despicably evil despot You might be more used to the wars launched by the west in recent years which were rather more one sided, but the US lost nearly sixty thousand soldiers in vietnam, and thirty six thousand in the korean war, the same armed forces that went on to fight the gulf and iraq/afghanistan wars, but which I don't think anyone would suggest were not one of the most effective fighting forces in the world at all of those times. In reality, there is just no way to fight a war aganst a modern military, or even a committed irregular force in good terrain, without incurring losses in men and materiel. You expect to lose both. They are there to die in order to achieve the aims of the people in charge. You can plan as much as you like but ultimately you still expect some of your army to die, the question for military planners is how much they are prepared to lose in order to achieve what they want. No amount of planning would avoid that. I think what you are seeing, while it might not have been as breezy as the russians would have hoped, is probably a reality they at least had contingencies for in terms of military force, whether or not the political reaction is what they had planned for is another thing. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Feb 25, 2022 |
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