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CommieGIR posted:You really think Russia, an invading force currently winning a ground war, is going to negotiate on any of these things? Seriously? I don't think it's clear that your interpretation is the last word on the demands that have been made at least. As far as what's open to negotiation, it depends on what Russia's ultimate aims are and how much of a price Putin feels is worth paying/what sanctions pressure might be negotiable if they do come to terms. Maybe the Western reaction has been more unified than he was expecting when he invaded, who knows. In any case, Zelensky's said he'll negotiate, so presumably he doesn't think it's nothing but a waste of time. Even if there's a small chance of a breakthrough, it's worth pursuing.
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Feb 25, 2022 18:06
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Nenonen posted:OTOH it does making arranging STALKER larps that much easier. drat, so it suddenly does become impossible to say if it is good or bad.
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Feb 25, 2022 18:06
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https://twitter.com/ptskialadze_g/status/1497251401520463874 take back abkhazia and south ossetia georgia. russia's all tied up.
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Feb 25, 2022 18:07
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Sinteres posted:You're putting a spin on the demands with your interpretation of them and then presenting them as objective reality and saying Russia won't negotiate them. stupid motherfucker (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 25, 2022 18:08
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you always say you'll negotiate; refusing on principle just makes you the pariah. Then you negotiate over the terms of negotiation, e.g., a ceasefire and withdrawal to lines of control; that's where the huffy walkouts can take place
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Feb 25, 2022 18:08
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Estonia sending Javelins and anti-aircraft ammunition to Ukraine
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Feb 25, 2022 18:08
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:https://twitter.com/ptskialadze_g/status/1497251401520463874 Lmao if Putin just caused a domino effect of the collapse of the Russian sphere of influence WINNING 
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Feb 25, 2022 18:09
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Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:there are two likely causes for this other than people loving with the extremely notorious and wildly dangerous nuclear disaster: I'm betting on dust/dirt being kicked up. Even then, the readings are miniscule. Ciprian Maricon posted:No, people are pointing out that Zelensky would get something he presumably wants, which is an end to a conflict killing a lot of his people. There is value in that, maybe not worth accepting Putin's demands but your continued characterization of negotiations or diplomacy as just innately without value makes it seem like you value Putin getting a geopolitical black eye more than the lives of Ukranian people. Yeah, the thing Putin wants is Ukraine. All of it. And to be able to largely control it. Ciprian Maricon posted:There is a real chance that Putin gets everything he wants in Ukraine, only that its built on top of huge bodies of Ukrainians. Could we stop with this "think of the children" posting style? Its basically almost justifying Russian demands. Russia is holding a hostage that they already said they are gonna shoot anyways, and you are pretending there's a way out. Putin is coming in to round people up. He openly said they have lists. They will occupy Ukraine, negotiated surrender or not. You are outright inventing scenarios at this point while a madman stomps all over his neighbor. ronya posted:you always say you'll negotiate; refusing on principle just makes you the pariah. Then you negotiate over the terms of negotiation, e.g., a ceasefire and withdrawal to lines of control; that's where the huffy walkouts can take place If Putin wanted to negotiate he would've done so already. Zelensky straight tried to call him hours before the invasion. The invasion is the entire goal of Putin. Putins demands have not changed and even then, as others have pointed out: How do you negotiate with a bad faith actor who frequently goes back on his word and his deals?
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Feb 25, 2022 18:09
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 Forums functionality reminder - if you find someone insufferable, and don't want to seem them post, please use "ignore" function.
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Feb 25, 2022 18:10
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CommieGIR posted:I'm betting on dust/dirt being kicked up. Even then, the readings are miniscule. I saw discussion on German twitter that the soil there is way too wet for any meaningful dust effect.
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Feb 25, 2022 18:11
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cinci zoo sniper posted:
Agreed. Half this thread is on my ignore list and the quality of my experience has improved exponentially. Just mute the tankies. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 25, 2022 18:12
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CommieGIR posted:You really think Russia, an invading force currently winning a ground war, is going to negotiate on any of these things? Seriously? Its the entire point of the invasion in the first place Sigh. He invaded because he couldn't get what he considered the bare minimum. Yes absolutely he would rather stop the tanks and get his neutered Ukraine if he can. War isn't free even for Putin
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Feb 25, 2022 18:12
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cinci zoo sniper posted:
The posting gap must be maintained.
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Feb 25, 2022 18:12
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Sinteres posted:You're putting a spin on the demands with your interpretation of them and then presenting them as objective reality and saying Russia won't negotiate them. Zelensky has been spending most of the invasion saying "yes, the terms you've publicly presented sound reasonable, let's talk about them." The shooting is still ongoing. I think the assumption that Putin won't accept anything other than total capitulation and occupation is pretty reasonable atm.
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Feb 25, 2022 18:12
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CommieGIR posted:Could we stop with this "think of the children" posting style? Its basically almost justifying Russian demands. Russia is holding a hostage that they already said they are gonna shoot anyways, and you are pretending there's a way out. It's not "think of the children" its an objective fact. It is a possible outcome for this conflict that Putin gets everything he wants from his demands and that the only difference between that and a negotiated cease fire is the number of Ukranian people that die. It is not the only possible outcome, and I am not advocating for it, but it is a thing that can happen, even if it runs contrary to your personal boner for seeing someone else fight and die to stand up to Putin.
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Feb 25, 2022 18:12
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ZombieLenin posted:Why is this not a bigger deal? If they fired on not one, but two neutrally flagged ships that's a non-accidental act of war; and you are saying Moldovian flagged, but if a Romanian flagged ship were hit by Russian anti-ship missiles that's an act of war against a NATO state. I doubt those were fired on with anti-ship missiles, but instead naval guns. If those were hit by anti-ship missiles, they'd likely be at the bottom of the sea - those are absolutely devastating weapons, and Russia is no slouch in the technologies to develop/deploy them.
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Feb 25, 2022 18:12
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CommieGIR posted:If Putin wanted to negotiate he would've done so already. Zelensky straight tried to call him hours before the invasion. The invasion is the entire goal of Putin. Putins demands have not changed and even then, as others have pointed out: How do you negotiate with a bad faith actor who frequently goes back on his word and his deals? I'm referring to the news; it's important (and entirely normal) to be open to talks about talks it's making the rounds in certain spaces as "aha Ukraine is folding any time now" but it's the same move as Russia presenting ridiculous demands a week ago - you do need to lay it out (and then other people call bullshit on it, as they may, but it's important to have the podium to draw those lines)
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Feb 25, 2022 18:12
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Even I suspected stronger sanctions from the EU and US.Smeef posted:The World Bank data I peeked at only goes back to 1996 for all the post-Soviet states (sporadic before then) but was pretty interesting to look at. I admittedly do not know much about post-Soviet economic growth, so this is naive chartism at its best and is perhaps as much an illustration of the limitations of GDP per capita as a measure as anything. That said, the high-level pattern seems to be: 1996 was in the middle of the crash. As my link shows the entire iron curtain economy crashed. Your deductions aren’t completely wrong but to keep relevance to this thread: - The Soviet Union was at least on the same level of economic growth as its peers until the mid ‘70s. This is when things began to go off course. - Some countries soared in development but more have had mediocre or poor development. - Russia is one that has had mediocre development and most of the growth it had is largely due to rising oil prices.
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Feb 25, 2022 18:12
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TulliusCicero posted:Lmao if Putin just caused a domino effect of the collapse of the Russian sphere of influence I dont think Russia and Georgia have been the best of friends the past decade or two anyway, mate.
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Feb 25, 2022 18:13
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MikeC posted:Sigh. He invaded because he couldn't get what he considered the bare minimum. Yes absolutely he would rather stop the tanks and get his neutered Ukraine if he can. War isn't free even for Putin His bare minimum was all of Ukraine and a new government.
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Feb 25, 2022 18:13
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MikeC posted:Sigh. He invaded because he couldn't get what he considered the bare minimum. Yes absolutely he would rather stop the tanks and get his neutered Ukraine if he can. War isn't free even for Putin The bare minimum was basically already what he demanded now. The bare minimum was withdrawal of NATO west of Poland, guarantee Ukraine would not seek NATO accession, and giving up LNR/DNR. He also demanded the right to veto possible EU membership (read as: No membership whatsoever) The bare minimum was a bait and switch to get a casus belli to do the invasion anyways. If Putin was actually concerned about a NATO invasion or NATO threats, he'd be invading the NATO nations already immediately at his borders. This is not a good faith actor making reasonable demands.
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Feb 25, 2022 18:14
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MikeC posted:Sigh. He invaded because he couldn't get what he considered the bare minimum. Yes absolutely he would rather stop the tanks and get his neutered Ukraine if he can. War isn't free even for Putin *le dramatic sigh* Can you describe the difference between his minimum demands, his normal demands, and his maximum demands here?
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Feb 25, 2022 18:14
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I'm traveling and without access to any televised news....does anyone have a stream link that is tuned to a reasonable news org?
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Feb 25, 2022 18:15
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Interfax is now reporting a Japanese flagged ship has been hit by a Russian anti-ship missile in the Black Sea. If true this represents a serious escalation and NATO may be forced to send warship escorts for neutral ships in the Black Sea.
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Feb 25, 2022 18:15
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ZombieLenin posted:Interfax is now reporting a Japanese flagged ship has been hit by a Russian anti-ship missile in the Black Sea. Nobody is sending war ships to the black sea
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Feb 25, 2022 18:16
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CommieGIR posted:Okay guys we've defined tankie, move on with actual on topic chat Can we make more definitions? I have one in mind: bankie. It means someone with the same willingness to support authoritarian regimes as a tankie, but for capitalistic reasons. Example: "Mario Draghi absolutely opposes sanctioning trade of luxury items with Russia. What an absolute bankie!"
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Feb 25, 2022 18:16
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:https://twitter.com/ptskialadze_g/status/1497251401520463874 Lol I was having a shower thought earlier of "if 30-50% of the Russian army is tied down in Ukraine who is going to bail out Russia's puppets in central Asia and the Caucasus" and well. Honestly if this ends with Russia failing to win in Ukraine, another eastward expansion of NATO, and a weakening of Russian power in Asia it will be just desserts.
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Feb 25, 2022 18:17
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Sinteres posted:You're putting a spin on the demands with your interpretation of them and then presenting them as objective reality and saying Russia won't negotiate them. And we are back to "Putin is just a rational actor who is trying to negotiate, why don't you meanies listen to his reasonable demands?" and we have to act like this deserves to be heard instead of deserving the upmost derision and visceral disgust. Pathetic, pathetic and sickening. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 25, 2022 18:17
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TheRat posted:Nobody is sending war ships to the black sea Maybe not but its gonna draw out so international anger for sure.
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Feb 25, 2022 18:17
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cinci zoo sniper posted:
I wish to report a bug - it doesn't seem to be working, it says you're a moderator?  
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Feb 25, 2022 18:17
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This loving guy man https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/1497258980040589313?s=20&t=F_cKcQmGjVuX9bCr_m2UJA
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Feb 25, 2022 18:17
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There's been a weird undercurrent throughout this thread of people not understanding that maybe, just maybe, the armed forces and people willingly sticking around and picking up goverment provided arms believe in the independence of their country and people and think its something worth dying for. This isn't me saying that they are happy to die for the country. But they are being backed into a corner and instead of surrendering the reported response is basically "gently caress you come and take it".
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Feb 25, 2022 18:17
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TheRat posted:I dont think Russia and Georgia have been the best of friends the past decade or two anyway, mate. I actually figured Russia had installed a puppet in Georgia after the war. My bad
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Feb 25, 2022 18:17
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MikeC posted:Sigh. He invaded because he couldn't get what he considered the bare minimum. Yes absolutely he would rather stop the tanks and get his neutered Ukraine if he can. War isn't free even for Putin Honestly I sorta figured this too, but the extent of how bad this is going to be for Russia in the long term made me come around to the idea that is is a crazy old dude who wants to bring back the glory days with a ~Grand Military Victory~. It's the same type of thinking Trump had -- Trump was obsessed with a huge military thing backing his ascension into the pantheon of Best Rulers Ever, and Putin wants the same thing: to be the guy that got Russia's groove back. The problem is that it's not how it's going to come off because it's not like shooting Nazis which everyone accepted since they were awful, instead they're shooting people who are culturally very similar and also getting shot back at a lot and gonna pick up some sanctions to boot. Putin wanted to show that Russia is the strong, capable hegemon in Eastern Europe but instead he is coming off as a demented old dude throwing things into chaos for no apparent reason. It's all so sloppy that instead of intimidating other locals into line he's showing that his Russia doesn't have what it takes to lead, for good or ill.
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Feb 25, 2022 18:17
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Nenonen posted:Can we make more definitions? I have one in mind: bankie. It means someone with the same willingness to support authoritarian regimes as a tankie, but for capitalistic reasons. Example: "Mario Draghi absolutely opposes sanctioning trade of luxury items with Russia. What an absolute bankie!"  Are skankies skyrim tankies?
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Feb 25, 2022 18:17
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Sinteres posted:You're putting a spin on the demands with your interpretation of them and then presenting them as objective reality and saying Russia won't negotiate them. Can you be a little more specific with your post? And do you think that Russia will be willing to give any concessions on their previous/current demands? And do you think that Russia is willing to negotiate in good faith? If so, what rationale is there for Russia to be encircling/seeming to go after Kyiv when they're supposedly just trying to help eastern Ukraine's breakaway republics? Just for the record, here's a current source for this claim.
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Feb 25, 2022 18:18
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ZombieLenin posted:Interfax is now reporting a Japanese flagged ship has been hit by a Russian anti-ship missile in the Black Sea. That seems to be the Namura Queen, the one flying Panama flag from earlier.
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Feb 25, 2022 18:19
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https://twitter.com/NavyLookout/status/1497247647597486088?t=U99rZB5HcX9Im1swP82ORw&s=19
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Feb 25, 2022 18:19
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TheRat posted:Nobody is sending war ships to the black sea NATO routinely sends ships to the Black Sea. I am not saying it is a certainty, but now that we have reports of three neutral vessels being fired on, and hit by, Russian forces I do not trust in your absolute statement. Regardless of whether NATO warships enter the Black Sea to protect neutral vessels, it remains a serious escalation on the part of the Russian Federation; and they, not NATO, are really playing with fire.
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Feb 25, 2022 18:19
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Ashmole posted:https://twitter.com/NavyLookout/status/1497247647597486088?t=U99rZB5HcX9Im1swP82ORw&s=19 Yeah this is gonna get bad. There's no way there isn't some international uproar over this. Its one thing to block Ukraine's airspace and the immediate coast, you are now launching missiles at international shipping. Its like shooting down a civilian aircraft outside the conflict.
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Feb 25, 2022 18:20
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