|
mmkay posted:I wish to report a bug - it doesn't seem to be working, it says you're a moderator? There are threads in other subforums that discuss this, you're welcome.
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 05:30 |
|
|
One is a fluke, three strikes seem like a pattern. I guess they're trying to stop shipping to Ukraine?
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:20
|
|
|
Ashmole posted:https://twitter.com/NavyLookout/status/1497247647597486088?t=U99rZB5HcX9Im1swP82ORw&s=19 I can see that the Russian Navy is falling back to the Dogger Bank strategy.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:21
|
|
|
Really not sure why they're just shooting at any ship they see. I mean I guess obviously they want to stop them but that seems like a pretty bad idea politically.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:21
|
|
|
ZombieLenin posted:NATO routinely sends ships to the Black Sea. I am not saying it is a certainty, but now that we have reports of three neutral vessels being fired on, and hit by, Russian forces I do not trust in your absolute statement. NATO is not going to protect panama-regged ships in the black sea dude.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:21
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:If Putin was actually concerned about a NATO invasion or NATO threats, he'd be invading the NATO nations already immediately at his borders. Could you explain this part? Invading Nato and triggering article five seems way riskier than invading a non Nato country.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:21
|
|
|
TheRat posted:NATO is not going to protect panama-regged ships in the black sea dude. Not NATO, but messing with international shipping, let alone launching a missile at a non-Ukrainian ship is going to be a very loving big deal. Tezzeract posted:Could you explain this part? Invading Nato and triggering article five seems way riskier than invading a non Nato country. That's kind of the point. Putin is arguing that NATO is a threat to him, and that Ukraine (who was not on the way to joining NATO anyways) presented an immediate security threat because of it. Yet none of the NATO nations on Russia's border that have been there for years are security threats. Its bait and switch.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:21
|
|
|
Nenonen posted:Can we make more definitions? I have one in mind: bankie. It means someone with the same willingness to support authoritarian regimes as a tankie, but for capitalistic reasons. Example: "Mario Draghi absolutely opposes sanctioning trade of luxury items with Russia. What an absolute bankie!" We need something for this gem by Sn. Tuberville as well: https://twitter.com/KevinMKruse/status/1496950433344065543 ...besides "total moron", that is.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:22
|
|
|
ZombieLenin posted:NATO routinely sends ships to the Black Sea. I am not saying it is a certainty, but now that we have reports of three neutral vessels being fired on, and hit by, Russian forces I do not trust in your absolute statement. There are already NATO warships in the Black Sea, there always were, there always will be, on account of -Romania -Bulgaria -and of course, Turkey.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:22
|
|
|
TheRat posted:NATO is not going to protect panama-regged ships in the black sea dude. NATO does these escorts all the time in the Straits of Hormuz; and Russia is now firing rather indiscriminately on non-belligerent neutral shipping. Again, I do not place any trust in absolute statements about what NATO will or will not do in this case. Frankly, at some point NATO will feel forced to intervene. It’s one thing to not put themselves in the middle of an armed conflict between the Russia and the Ukraine and another thing entirely to let the Russian Federation indiscriminately attack neutral merchant vessels. ZombieLenin fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Feb 25, 2022 |
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:23
|
|
|
Tezzeract posted:Could you explain this part? Invading Nato and triggering article five seems way riskier than invading a non Nato country. If you are afraid of being invaded by nato then expanding your border closer to nato by attacking a non nato country does not make very much sense under any reasoning. It would be like if I said I was afraid of being invaded by france so i am going to invade ireland.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:24
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Yeah this is gonna get bad. There's no way there isn't some international uproar over this. Its one thing to block Ukraine's airspace and the immediate coast, you are now launching missiles at international shipping. Its like shooting down a civilian aircraft outside the conflict. Yeah cos there were sure a lot of consequences when they shot down a civilian aircraft the other year.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:24
|
|
|
TheRat posted:Nobody is sending war ships to the black sea Freedom of navigation is a pretty big deal.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:24
|
|
|
cinci zoo sniper posted:There are threads in other subforums that discuss this, you're welcome. It was very much tongue in cheek, sorry if it came off otherwise, I know the thread can get a bit hectic.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:25
|
|
|
steinrokkan posted:And we are back to "Putin is just a rational actor who is trying to negotiate, why don't you meanies listen to his reasonable demands?" and we have to act like this deserves to be heard instead of deserving the upmost derision and visceral disgust. Pathetic, pathetic and sickening. I don't agree with anyone who thinks Putin is going to have demands that are all palatable to Ukraine, but painting him as an irrational and unreasonable lunatic is also nonsense. This is the outcome of geopolitical jockeying over the status of Ukraine since 2013. Russia's choices are bad for everyone except Russia, and it's up to the international community to also make it a bad choice for Russia.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:25
|
|
|
Jamsque posted:Yeah cos there were sure a lot of consequences when they shot down a civilian aircraft the other year. That plane carried only people, those ships carry business assets. In our great capitalist world, this easily can receive more attention than MH-17. mmkay posted:It was very much tongue in cheek, sorry if it came off otherwise, I know the thread can get a bit hectic. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:25
|
|
|
Telsa Cola posted:There's been a weird undercurrent throughout this thread of people not understanding that maybe, just maybe, the armed forces and people willingly sticking around and picking up goverment provided arms believe in the independence of their country and people and think its something worth dying for. Yeah its amazing isnt it? I have a suspicion that the events on Snake Island where the defending Ukrainian soldiers told the Russians to 'Go gently caress themselves' might be the defining and galvanising moment for most Ukrainians.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:25
|
|
|
Jamsque posted:Yeah cos there were sure a lot of consequences when they shot down a civilian aircraft the other year. There's an active war now that Russia is trying to avoid dragging anyone into. They are dragging people into this now. Sure, maybe nothing happens, but given that we are already well under way with sanctions, hitting random ships in the Black Sea with missiles is not likely to get you less sanctioned. cinci zoo sniper posted:That plane carried only people, those ships carry business assets. In our great capitalist world, this easily can receive more attention than MH-17. This too.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:25
|
|
|
e: whoops, old
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:25
|
|
|
He doesn't... seem very rational at the moment tbqh.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:26
|
|
|
BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:I don't agree with anyone who thinks Putin is going to have demands that are all palatable to Ukraine, but painting him as an irrational and unreasonable lunatic is also nonsense. This is the outcome of geopolitical jockeying over the status of Ukraine since 2013. Russia's choices are bad for everyone except Russia, and it's up to the international community to also make it a bad choice for Russia. Very rational.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:28
|
|
|
Telsa Cola posted:There's been a weird undercurrent throughout this thread of people not understanding that maybe, just maybe, the armed forces and people willingly sticking around and picking up goverment provided arms believe in the independence of their country and people and think its something worth dying for. I think some folks just have a hard time imagining that anything is worth dying for.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:28
|
|
|
talks about talks: https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1497232195123036161
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:28
|
|
|
BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:I don't agree with anyone who thinks Putin is going to have demands that are all palatable to Ukraine, but painting him as an irrational and unreasonable lunatic is also nonsense. This is the outcome of geopolitical jockeying over the status of Ukraine since 2013. Russia's choices are bad for everyone except Russia, and it's up to the international community to also make it a bad choice for Russia. Have you ever considered, and I know this might be a hard one to hear so maybe sit down, drink some water, maybe do a breathing exercise: That Putin may in fact be LYING about NATO concerns and is in fact agressing on Ukraine because according to his words directly they have no right to exist? TulliusCicero fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Feb 25, 2022 |
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:29
|
|
|
BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:I don't agree with anyone who thinks Putin is going to have demands that are all palatable to Ukraine, but painting him as an irrational and unreasonable lunatic is also nonsense. This is the outcome of geopolitical jockeying over the status of Ukraine since 2013. Russia's choices are bad for everyone except Russia, and it's up to the international community to also make it a bad choice for Russia. It's not really good for Russia either tbh. He is not a mastermind. He's acting on purestrain nationalistic revanchism. This is not and never has been about NATO.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:30
|
|
|
ZombieLenin posted:Why is this not a bigger deal? If they fired on not one, but two neutrally flagged ships that's a non-accidental act of war; and you are saying Moldovian flagged, but if a Romanian flagged ship were hit by Russian anti-ship missiles that's an act of war against a NATO state. Did you know that during the Kosovar war, Americans bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrad? (They had outdated address data.) And another missile hit a block of flats in Sofia, Bulgaria. (The missile went haywire.) I could also tell you how many times Soviets bombed Sweden during WW2 or Nazis Ireland or Americans Switzerland, but the point is that this is not quite as big deal as you apparently think it is. For sure it is noteworthy but nothing that doesn't happen time to time at times of war.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:30
|
|
|
New York Times is now reporting Russian forces offensive momentum has been ground to a halt in Ukraine, but warns Russia has reserve forces and could commit them.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:30
|
|
|
BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:I don't agree with anyone who thinks Putin is going to have demands that are all palatable to Ukraine, but painting him as an irrational and unreasonable lunatic is also nonsense. This is the outcome of geopolitical jockeying over the status of Ukraine since 2013. Russia's choices are bad for everyone except Russia, and it's up to the international community to also make it a bad choice for Russia. Putin isn't "irrational" in the sense of randomly doing things for literally no reason, true. He wants to own Ukraine so he invaded it. That is rational in a narrow sense because he doesn't care about causing mass death in Ukraine or harming his own people as long as he gets his way and keeps power. I'm not sure this is a very interesting distinction though.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:30
|
|
|
A note regarding Putin's claims that he wants "denazification" of Ukraine: Ukraine still has the 5th largest Jewish population in the world, estimated at between 200,000 and 400,000 (exact numbers difficult to come by since so many either converted or hid their ancestry/religion during the pogroms and the Soviet occupation). Contrary to Russian propaganda, the level of anti-Semitism overall in the country is lower than most of Eastern Europe, and certainly most of Russia. While Putin calls for "denazification" he also claims that Ukraine is being controlled by "the West" and that he wants to purge "undesirables", which are making alarm bells go off in my head. Whenever there's a war in Europe the local Jewish communities suffer some of the worst damage.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:30
|
|
|
At the border now between Poland and Ukraine. Absolute mess, cold, terrified people coming through every once in a while. Since there’s no organization, me and some likeminded people waiting but despite the government announcements people will be free to go through, only cars are coming. I already have contacts to someone on the other side but they’re saying it’ll be two hours for them to cross. gently caress its cold.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:30
|
|
|
Dwesa posted:According to Putin himself, this is result of Lenin inventing Ukraine and Ukrainians. That's propaganda. It's weird but it's definitely targeted at some of his constituents and probably pro-Moscow factions living in Ukraine. It's good to take into account, but I wouldn't read it as definitive proof that he's no longer a rational actor. He is, although rational actors in geopolitics can miscalculate, and I think he probably has miscalculated pretty badly.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:31
|
|
|
Telsa Cola posted:There's been a weird undercurrent throughout this thread of people not understanding that maybe, just maybe, the armed forces and people willingly sticking around and picking up goverment provided arms believe in the independence of their country and people and think its something worth dying for. There is a lot of cheerleading and mythmaking going on ITT. I don't know about others but personally that doesn't resonate with me, its just loving awful, loads of people dying needlessly, and cool memes about "russian warship go gently caress yourself" don't make it any less awful for me
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:31
|
|
|
coelomate posted:Also, speaking of fog of war and propaganda, we're all taking at face value "Hi it is me your president from definitely Kyiv and not somewhere else, as you can see from this generic background I am standing in front of." I'm not sure when this was made or exactly where it is but the background isn't super generic: https://twitter.com/MisterFed/status/1497255140151238659
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:31
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Really not sure why they're just shooting at any ship they see. This. I understand why Putin is going into Ukraine, even though it's a demonstrably bad a provocative thing to do from a Western perspective. I don't understand at all why they're shooting at commercial ships though - that will eventually get a very different reaction.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:32
|
|
|
Kyiv livestream had a few police cars with lights on stop a few cars on the main boulevard a few minutes ago. They're all still sitting there. Not enough detail to make out what's up.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:32
|
|
|
Mokotow posted:At the border now between Poland and Ukraine. Absolute mess, cold, terrified people coming through every once in a while. Since there’s no organization, me and some likeminded people waiting but despite the government announcements people will be free to go through, only cars are coming. I already have contacts to someone on the other side but they’re saying it’ll be two hours for them to cross. gently caress its cold. You goddamn legend you.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:32
|
|
|
Mokotow posted:At the border now between Poland and Ukraine. Absolute mess, cold, terrified people coming through every once in a while. Since there’s no organization, me and some likeminded people waiting but despite the government announcements people will be free to go through, only cars are coming. I already have contacts to someone on the other side but they’re saying it’ll be two hours for them to cross. gently caress its cold. cool thing you're doing
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:32
|
|
|
ZombieLenin posted:New York Times is now reporting Russian forces offensive momentum has been ground to a halt in Ukraine, but warns Russia has reserve forces and could commit them. If that's about the earlier statement from Pentagon somebody, I believe the original wording was “In general, the Russians have lost a little bit of their momentum”, which could make this a NYT classic.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:32
|
|
|
ZombieLenin posted:New York Times is now reporting Russian forces offensive momentum has been ground to a halt in Ukraine, but warns Russia has reserve forces and could commit them. Man this is hugely embarrassing and bad for Putin. If the US was implementing this type of invasion we'd have actually done what we'd planned to do. Russian military might is a complete paper tiger, Putin is lucky he has 6,000 nukes to sit on and hold the world hostage with. Godspeed you brave Ukrainian heroes.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 05:30 |
|
|
cinci zoo sniper posted:I saw discussion on German twitter that the soil there is way too wet for any meaningful dust effect.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2022 18:32
|
|
