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SplitSoul posted:I was responding specifically to the claim that Ukraine, contrary to corrupt and fascist Russia, was a freedom-loving liberal democracy that doesn't mistreat its own people. As opposed to what? We let them get rolled over and do absolutely nothing? What in the world would give you the impression that Putin's going to stop at Ukraine or that the suffering ends with Russia stomping over a country? You're being very cute with your WWII references but your analogy falls apart completely looking at who the aggressor is. You gotta be completely broke brained to think that a minority of far right fascists existing in a democratic country makes it fair to deem the entire government and its people as Nazis. If that were the case, Sweden, with its 3rd largest party being SD, would be essentially Nazi Germany in your mind.
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Feb 28, 2022 17:32
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fnox posted:What in the world would give you the impression that Putin's going to stop at Ukraine or that the suffering ends with Russia stomping over a country? As an added note here from an observer since you ain't directing that at me: Putin is guided largely by pan-slavinist fantasies of guys like Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and Aleksandr Dugin. They want a slavic state composed of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus. He isn't looking to start some colonial war in Europe aimed at turning France into a breadbasket for Germany. Nor is he likely to want more, the ideology that guids his actions does not mandate that, unlike Hitler. That said none of that means we shouldn't support Ukraine, including by sending anti-tank weapons etc. I do however want to discourage the kind of pseudoorientalist "eastern horde" nonsense that comes out of the anti-russia circles everytime something like this happens. It isn't helpful or insightful.
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Feb 28, 2022 17:42
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:As an added note here from an observer since you ain't directing that at me: Pardon my ignorance, but is this the GULAG archipelago author, or someone else?
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Feb 28, 2022 17:44
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The Ukrainians want to defend themselves. They want to fight for their country and freedom. Even if it drags out the war. And they deserve our support.
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Feb 28, 2022 17:46
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fnox posted:As opposed to what? We let them get rolled over and do absolutely nothing? What in the world would give you the impression that Putin's going to stop at Ukraine or that the suffering ends with Russia stomping over a country? It doesn't matter how many molotov cocktails they produce or how many Kalashnikovs they hand out to untrained citizens, that's my entire point, it's only going to get them maimed and killed, any different expectation is purely magical thinking. What prevents Putin steamrolling the rest of Europe is the same thing that hopefully prevents NATO from intervening directly in the conflict, an aversion to nuclear war. fnox posted:You're being very cute with your WWII references but your analogy falls apart completely looking at who the aggressor is. I'm not the one comparing him to Hitler. fnox posted:You gotta be completely broke brained to think that a minority of far right fascists existing in a democratic country makes it fair to deem the entire government and its people as Nazis. If that were the case, Sweden, with its 3rd largest party being SD, would be essentially Nazi Germany in your mind. Then it's a good thing I never claimed anything of the sort. I keep forgetting why I despise D&D, but thanks for reminding me.
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Feb 28, 2022 17:48
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BonHair posted:
Makes them much modern than Sweden.
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Feb 28, 2022 17:52
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Rappaport posted:Pardon my ignorance, but is this the GULAG archipelago author, or someone else? The very one. He was also a nationalist opinionmaker, nostalgic for the Tsarist era etc. Russian integration with Ukraine and Belarus were a key part of his ideas.
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Feb 28, 2022 18:39
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SplitSoul posted:
Bye.
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Feb 28, 2022 18:39
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:The very one. He was also a nationalist opinionmaker, nostalgic for the Tsarist era etc. Russian integration with Ukraine and Belarus were a key part of his ideas. Huh, thanks for the info! I've only read the archipelago, but I've been ignorant about the man's "political" ideas. I just remember the archipelago focusing on misery and hating the Soviets, maybe I should read it again. vvvv  Sorry!
Rappaport fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Feb 28, 2022 |
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Feb 28, 2022 18:50
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Alright this derail has gone off the rails, and it's time to put an end to it. As a reminder, that this is the Scandinavian politics thread, not the ukraine thread. Discussing how this affects scandinavian countries is fair game, but overall discussions about the invasion, Russia, and Ukraine should go to the appropriate threads, which is not here.
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Feb 28, 2022 18:51
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:The very one. He was also a nationalist opinionmaker, nostalgic for the Tsarist era etc. Russian integration with Ukraine and Belarus were a key part of his ideas. Also a massive anti-semite, but people often leave out that part for some reason. KozmoNaut posted:Bye. You leaving? Imagine wanting to actually debate and discuss in a subforum ostensibly created for that purpose, instead of whittling down strawmen. McCloud posted:Alright this derail has gone off the rails, and it's time to put an end to it. That's cool. My original post concerned how Enhedslisten voted in favour of arming one side in the conflict.
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Feb 28, 2022 19:01
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SplitSoul posted:It won't make a difference except resulting in more dead civilians.
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Feb 28, 2022 19:04
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V. Illych L. posted:it's not really comparable with lend-lease, because that was a peer conflict with the outcome uncertain. the soviet union had a lot more strategic depth than does ukraine; it could afford a lot more losses than ukraine can in the present conflict. Arming ukrainians with modern AT weapons is precisely the kind of thing that did/can make a difference to the outcome. V. Illych L. posted:i don't really see "more people dead" as a success criterion tbh KozmoNaut posted:I would love to hear you guys' proposed solution to the current situation, one that isn't "let Putin do whatever he wants and repress the countries around Russia and eventually all of Europe". You can never appease fascists for very long. evil_bunnY fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Feb 28, 2022 |
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Feb 28, 2022 19:07
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evil_bunnY posted:And they've been getting their poo poo pushed in to bewildering degree. Putin can have a little imperialism, as a treat
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Feb 28, 2022 19:11
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McCloud posted:Alright this derail has gone off the rails, and it's time to put an end to it.
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Feb 28, 2022 19:23
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Ukraine is part of greater Scandinavia. I mean, the Vikings did sail the rivers of Eastern Europe, so... Actually, is Svalbard considered Scandinavia, and how's it going with the Russians up there?
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Feb 28, 2022 19:32
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BonHair posted:I mean, the Vikings did sail the rivers of Eastern Europe, so...
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Feb 28, 2022 19:43
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The Kievan Rus', which Russia, Belarus and Ukraine claim descend from, was a state run by primarily Swedish Norse akin to Normandy in the west. So a bit more than just sailing on rivers. So, what I'm hearing is "rightful Swedish clay"?
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Feb 28, 2022 19:52
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barentsburg is still populated and mining coal and they still have what i believe to be the last dedicated post office in norway. they don't have an air strip so they shouldn't be overly affected by the flight ban.
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Feb 28, 2022 19:53
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Ukraine is part of greater Scandinavia. So is Britain.
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Feb 28, 2022 19:56
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evil_bunnY posted:And they've been getting their poo poo pushed in to bewildering degree. i'm not criticising the ukrainians for fighting back. of course they're fighting back. i'm saying that we shouldn't send lethal aid - at least not unless we seriously believe that the ukrainians can actually win - because that's extending the complete horror that is modern war
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Feb 28, 2022 19:57
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Alhazred posted:So is Britain.
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Feb 28, 2022 20:24
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Politics aside, what are the ballistic effects of putting food-grade animal fat on bullets? And does it gently caress up the gun at all?
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Feb 28, 2022 20:28
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This is the perfect time for Sweden to invade Russia, while they are distracted. We will finally finish what we started in 1709
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Feb 28, 2022 20:33
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jeebus bob posted:Politics aside, what are the ballistic effects of putting food-grade animal fat on bullets? Animal fat burns when exposed to high heat. Even if the grease doesn't burn and shrink immediately after firing, the additional wind resistance from the grease negatively affects ballistics. You're going to end up with gunked up internals that will jam after a while.
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Feb 28, 2022 20:35
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V. Illych L. posted:i'm not criticising the ukrainians for fighting back. of course they're fighting back. i'm saying that we shouldn't send lethal aid - at least not unless we seriously believe that the ukrainians can actually win - because that's extending the complete horror that is modern war Like, do you not understand the difference between a conflict like WW1 where at any point the disconnected, unaffected power-that-be could have gone "alright that's enough of a butchery" to WW2 where if you don't fight, they'll just take everything, and kill everyone they don't like?
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Feb 28, 2022 20:52
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McCloud posted:Alright this derail has gone off the rails, and it's time to put an end to it. Please heed this post
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Feb 28, 2022 21:16
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I don’t know what it is with vänster. One step forward and two steps back. They keep shooting themselves in the foot and making really stupid rookie political mistakes. https://twitter.com/jsjostedt/status/1498264851780669445 Ulf loving Kristersson got to dunk on them today.
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Feb 28, 2022 21:25
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Beeswax posted:Please heed this post
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Feb 28, 2022 21:29
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Dirk Pitt posted:I don’t know what it is with vänster. One step forward and two steps back. They keep shooting themselves in the foot and making really stupid rookie political mistakes. They're considering maybe forming an opinion on the topic soon. https://twitter.com/dadgostarnooshi/status/1498389410441838592?s=20&t=l5z6RvN0H-Hffcv1Kl5ifg I've never seen Nooshi be so...... unspecific before. She's usually pretty straight forward.
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Feb 28, 2022 21:30
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To be honest Jonas Sjöstedt lost the plot a long time ago, he used to be a lot better but I think his time in Stockholm has rotted his brain a bit.
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Feb 28, 2022 21:35
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evil_bunnY posted:There's no "winning" when a country 3 times your size decides what's yours is now theirs. You go through the "horror of modern war" until they stop or you're dead, and it's a lot easier to stop them with ATGM. if ukrainian sovereignty is lost under any realistic outcome, the sane thing to do is to take the path there that leads to least death and destruction. a lot of these weapons *are* going to end up in the hands of extremely unsavoury characters, because that is the nature of dumping a bunch of expensive weapons in a war zone, and the more serious the fighting the worse the atrocities are going to get. i also don't understand your point with the ww1 vs ww2 scenario. if there is no victory and defeat does not mean extermination or enslavement, then relatively quick defeat is better than a drawn-out bloodbath.
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Feb 28, 2022 21:36
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Kamrat posted:To be honest Jonas Sjöstedt lost the plot a long time ago, he used to be a lot better but I think his time in Stockholm has rotted his brain a bit. Blaming everything on Stockholm all the time is just mean. When its the lantisar that bring most of the stupid here when they step off the train at centralen at age 21.
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Feb 28, 2022 21:38
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Threadkiller Dog posted:Blaming everything on Stockholm all the time is just mean. When its the lantisar that bring most of the stupid here when they step off the train at centralen at age 21. Without them there would be no Stockholm
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Feb 28, 2022 21:40
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All I'm hearing is cheaper apartments for the natives.
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Feb 28, 2022 21:43
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Dirk Pitt posted:I don’t know what it is with vänster. One step forward and two steps back. They keep shooting themselves in the foot and making really stupid rookie political mistakes. It's still V. They always do this. I know people like to meme on socdems here but V must have shoe in mouth as a part of their party culture. Now I'm sure they can boil it down to not wanting to support a beligirent power in a war etc.
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Feb 28, 2022 21:45
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:It's still V. They always do this. I know people like to meme on socdems here but V must have shoe in mouth as a part of their party culture. Now I'm sure they can boil it down to not wanting to support a beligirent power in a war etc. V have never missed the opportunity to be on the wrong side of history.
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Feb 28, 2022 21:55
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V. Illych L. posted:if ukrainian sovereignty is lost under any realistic outcome, the sane thing to do is to take the path there that leads to least death and destruction. a lot of these weapons *are* going to end up in the hands of extremely unsavoury characters, because that is the nature of dumping a bunch of expensive weapons in a war zone, and the more serious the fighting the worse the atrocities are going to get. Intel suggests that the Russians have compiled "kill lists" https://www.npr.org/2022/02/21/1082096026/russia-kill-list-ukraine?t=1646081782689 But sure think of the suffering. It's a war, atrocities are bound to happen, one way to not have atrocities, is that the Russians go home.
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Feb 28, 2022 21:58
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Feliday Melody posted:They're considering maybe forming an opinion on the topic soon. The swedish reflex of "Step 1: tillsätta en utredning" when faced with a problem never fails
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Feb 28, 2022 22:04
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Feliday Melody posted:They're considering maybe forming an opinion on the topic soon. The statement by the Communist Party and Revolutionary Communist Youth from a couple of days ago: quote:Statement: No to war - We condemn Russia's attack on Ukraine quote:Uttalande: Nej till krig – Vi fördömer Rysslands angrepp på Ukraina
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Feb 28, 2022 22:09
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