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TheRat posted:To be honest, that definitely sounds like something said under duress/direction. E: Like the text messges paraded in the UN the other day. I personally don't find those statements that unbelievable/obviously coerced. Think about the soldiers making those statements - based on all the reports gathered thus far, it stands to reason that many of them are fresh conscripts, barely even 2-3 months into service. Multiple reports of POWs claiming they were lied to about the nature of their deployment. Now consider that of the hundreds (or thousands) captured to date, every one is supposedly being allowed to call home. They've just come to the realization that their training mission was actually a combat deployment to a neighboring country that by most accounts could be compared to Texas invading Oklahoma. I don't know if this is the Ukrainian MOD leaking these, but given the sourcing it obviously behooves them to filter for the most emotionally-charged statements. Nobody's going to get weepy over a transcript that says "Hello mother, I am fine. Got captured. Hope to see you soon. I am proud to serve the motherland." Cenodoxus fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Mar 1, 2022 |
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Mar 1, 2022 15:13
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I think the rhetoric about Zielinsky being the leader of a coup regime is probably some kind of indicatior that i missed in retrospect that the Minsk II agreements were basically just a smokescreen to stall and provide strategic ambiguity. It squares with their UN statements that Russia is not a party to the agreement and thusly, Russia would never have been satisfied with the ratification of the agreement because their ultimate goal was a Union State a la Belarus- something where it was irrevocably in the Russian orbit. Also, I think the thread would probably be better without posting Russian POW videos, regardless of your stance on the issue.
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Mar 1, 2022 15:15
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Russia's statements increasingly sound to me like North Korea's usual "we will retaliate against our enemies with great fiery vengeance you will regret this" responses to farts in the wind, which of course are also intended for internal consumption. e: the statements are for internal consumption, not the farts
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Mar 1, 2022 15:16
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Thom12255 posted:https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1498659320560504833 The Ukrainian ambassador already said on Twitter that while they used to have a good working and personal relatuonship if he was the Russian ambassador right now he would kill himself.
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Mar 1, 2022 15:16
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Jarmak posted:Nor is that what I described. Which I very specifically laid out how they might try to do such a thing without going on the offensive at all. There is no way to enforce a no fly zone without announcing that you are going to strike out of NATO airspace and attack Russian planes, killing their crews. If we could just put up a sign that says "pls no" we would've done that already. This would also end up killing SAM crews to enforce no fly zones. It requires offensive action to do it. Sure, you can say "I'm just gonna fly over here, and if I see anyone I don't like, I have to DEFEND myself," but come on... quote:I'm referring to the Turkey shoot down in Syria. Historically I'm referring to Soviet pilots attacking the US in Korea, and Soviet AA systems/operators attacking US planes in Vietnam. I do not think Turkey shooting down Russian aircraft that violated Turkish airspace is the same as NATO leaving the borders of NATO airspace to go shoot down Russian aircraft and kill Russian SAM operators. Turkey wasn't just fighter sweeping out of their border and killing any Russians they found. Korea and Vietnam war are just too dissimilar and distant past from the current situation to mention without heavy disclaimers.
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Mar 1, 2022 15:18
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barbecue at the folks posted:The French are not leaving anything to interpretation:  As a historian it's loving fascinating to see one change in the calculus reunite a fracturing NATO and EU and restore many alliances that were starting to fall apart Also fascinating to see France reascend to prominence as the leader of Europe with and Germany reversing course on pacificism. Putin effectively isolated Russia with this dumb poo poo better than any American CIA op or President could have done in 30 years. Nice job idiot 
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Mar 1, 2022 15:21
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Zwiebel posted:You know who's going to be really insufferable in 10 years? If Bitcoin/Crypto becomes the defacto way to bypass sanctions, I hope it becomes the catalyst that finally gets that nonsense regulated into oblivion.
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Mar 1, 2022 15:22
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Jarmak posted:Historically I'm referring to Soviet pilots attacking the US in Korea, and Soviet AA systems/operators attacking US planes in Vietnam. This was all done with a thin veneer of plausible deniability in an era with massively more fog of war. NATO, cannot by definition, declare a No Fly Zone without openly committing to confronting Russian aircraft and attacking Russian anti air defenses, and they are not going to able to spray paint an F-18 in a different livery and pretend Ukraine did it.
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Mar 1, 2022 15:22
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TheRat posted:This is pretty loving lovely. Laws and conventions are made by people and can be malformed or counter productive. The Geneva convention isn't holy writ on the righteous way to fight a war, it's an attempt by falable people to codify a measure of restraint. Discussing the morality of it isn't undermining its power, it's updating our understanding with new data. There hasn't been a war with a nuclear armed power invading a much weaker neighbour, blatantly lying to its populace about there even being a war in the first place and the invaded country has been able to in real time provide incontrovertible evidence of the lie. Yes the conventions have been updated with case law and interpretations, but if a novel situation delivers on the intention of the rules even if its against the letter, I think that's at the very least worth considering, and in Ukraine's shoes definitely worth trying. spacetoaster posted:There's a whole lot of poo poo that this kind of philosophy could be used for. Yeah, but that applies to any law. Russia is currently falsely using standards set by the West to intervene in other conflicts to justify this one and we can still blatantly see it crosses a line. Most laws aren't purely black and white for this reason, humans are messy and not perfect logic robots, so we need to build in discretion to handle edge cases, and it generally works out alright. Captain Theron fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Mar 1, 2022 |
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Mar 1, 2022 15:24
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Captain Theron posted:Laws and conventions are made by people and can be malformed or counter productive. I think your politically motivated means to an end thinking is bad and short-sighted and wrong
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Mar 1, 2022 15:26
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Y'all, we do this every 25 pages. Nothing new is ever discussed.
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Mar 1, 2022 15:29
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TulliusCicero posted:
Hopefully the US/NATO doesn't squander it by invading some other loving country, like they squandered all the goodwill between 9/11 and March 2003. That was a good 15-ish months of everyone being on the same side. poo poo, wasn't even Iran on the US's side then? The Onion has been so good at predicting the future before: "Biden Vows That If Russia Invades Ukraine, U.S. Will Invade One Country Of Equivalent Value" https://www.theonion.com/biden-vows-that-if-russia-invades-ukraine-u-s-will-in-1848401421
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Mar 1, 2022 15:32
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I just realized something: If it's true that many of the russian soldiers didn't even know they were going to war, then some of them will have died to drone strikes without even knowing they were in any danger. From just another boring training excercise to burning to death in a second without even any chance to desert or disobey orders. No chance to call home and tell their family they are going to be in danger. No way to say goodbye to their loved ones. He's sending thousand of teenagers on suicide missions. This is just monstrous, how can Putin work with the military if he treats them like this ? Do his generals not have any kind of sympathy for their own people ?
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Mar 1, 2022 15:33
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Some of y'all need to take a step back and chill out.MonikaTSarn posted:Do his generals not have any kind of sympathy for their own people ?
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Mar 1, 2022 15:33
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Is using thermobaric weapons against the Geneva convention? Nah, we should be looking to these videos of Russian prisoners for war crimes.
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Mar 1, 2022 15:35
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ravenkult posted:Is using thermobaric weapons against the Geneva convention? It is not, no. They are legal to use.
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Mar 1, 2022 15:36
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This might have already gotten posted, but apparently the "go gently caress yourself" Ukrainians on Snake Island are either all or mostly all alive: https://www.facebook.com/navy.mil.gov.ua/posts/324444389723150
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Mar 1, 2022 15:36
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ravenkult posted:Is using thermobaric weapons against the Geneva convention? Nah, we should be looking to these videos of Russian prisoners for war crimes. Trust me, there is plenty of other videos that do not involve POWs that document Russian war crimes.  There's some grim videos out there including a family and their dogs that Russian troops executed in a ditch, another of a sniper murdering a guys son right in front of himSaladman posted:This might have already gotten posted, but apparently the "go gently caress yourself" Ukrainians on Snake Island are either all or mostly all alive: Good, still balls of steel.
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Mar 1, 2022 15:36
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mlmp08 posted:There is no way to enforce a no fly zone without announcing that you are going to strike out of NATO airspace and attack Russian planes, killing their crews. If we could just put up a sign that says "pls no" we would've done that already. This would also end up killing SAM crews to enforce no fly zones. It requires offensive action to do it. Sure, you can say "I'm just gonna fly over here, and if I see anyone I don't like, I have to DEFEND myself," but come on... What are you talking about, I specifically said with SAM batteries. The way this works is NATO chooses a zone that's not painful enough for the Russians to avoid that the Russians aren't willing to risk an escalation to launch strikes on Poland to stop. Like a x mile strip on the western border calculated to get as much as they can short of what they think the Russians would seriously contest.
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Mar 1, 2022 15:37
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MonikaTSarn posted:Do his generals not have any kind of sympathy for their own people ? This has been Russian military doctrine for a long time. I really don't understand how they continue to do it every couple generations.
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Mar 1, 2022 15:38
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A quick thought on Geneva Convention chat. The Convention does have the idea of proportional retaliation. So if Army B summarily executes 100 POWs from Army B, Army B can do the same to 100 of it's POWs from Army A. In this case, I think Ukraine is on firm legal ground to video record POWs calling their parents and release those video recordings to the global public, in retaliation for Russia targeting hospitals, using cluster munitions in residential areas with no known combatants in those buildings, and looting and pillaging. Edit: See Dante's post below. It's a good refutation of my post, and they seem to be correct, and my post incorrect. Ynglaur fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Mar 1, 2022 |
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Mar 1, 2022 15:39
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Jarmak posted:What are you talking about, I specifically said with SAM batteries. In that case, it’s still war, but rather weakly, and would shatter NATO unity. A bad idea.
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Mar 1, 2022 15:40
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Ynglaur posted:A quick thought on Geneva Convention chat. The Convention does have the idea of proportional retaliation. So if Army B summarily executes 100 POWs from Army B, Army B can do the same to 100 of it's POWs from Army A. I don’t even like the dumb joke posts ITT
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Mar 1, 2022 15:41
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The United States spends more money than all other countries on earth combined on its military. They then use this money to prop up the neocolonial capitalist world order on behalf of American and Western European businesses. Furthermore, over the last 20 years that military has undeniably participated in acts that are clear violations of international law. It does not follow, however, that because Russia is strategically aligned against the United States that Russia’s behavior vis-a-vis the Ukraine is justifiable, or defensible. From my point of view, looking at this through the lens of a Marxist analysis, one must keep in mind that Russia has invaded its neighbor—a poor but developed European neighbor—in the name of “Greater Russia”; in other words, in the name of empire. What the Russian invasion of Ukraine is not is an attempt to stand up to the neocolonial capitalist order, but rather force itself into the upper echelons of that order. What is more, the government of Russia is explicitly a fascist government. A fascist government that props up a kleptocapitalist system that exploits the population of Russia in the name of a group of plutocratic elites who stole from the people of Russia when the Soviet Union collapsed. This war is a type of direct and open invasion of a sovereign state for the explicit purpose of territorial acquisition in Europe, and has every war mark of a continuation of a project that Europe thought ended with Hitler. Therefore to defend Russia here is not to stand up against the United States, nor stand up to imperialism—the opposite in fact, nor is it to stand up to the global capitalist order. Rather defending Russia now is defending the type of world men like Hitler dreamed of, the type of world upwards of 60 million people died to end. At the end of the day fascism is capitalism and imperialism with the direct crushing of the human spirit by means of violence. It is far more dangerous to the future of our species, and indeed our entire world, than “Western Style” capitalism and imperialism could ever be. Russia under Putin is a repudiation of the very ideals of the Enlightenment, which are the ideals that serve as our best, our only, weapon with which we can articulate opposition to imperialism and post-industrial capitalism. In fact, without these ideals, which the Ukrainian Army and people now defend, you are ceding the possibility of opposition to these things with any other language than that which is used by organizations like the Taliban and ISIS—themselves a direct result of the defeat of “socialism” in the Cold War, before which the vast majority of those who resisted the worst of the West did so with ideals inherited from the Enlightenment. Therefore, those of us on the left must not defend Russia, we must not advocate for Ukraine to be just left to Russia, and we must recognize that even with the evils of Western style imperialism, the West in being the so called inheritors of the Enlightenment, contains within it the very tools with which we must use to make a better world. My soapbox speech for the year.
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Mar 1, 2022 15:41
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fatherboxx posted:Sorry for linking a twitter thread but this is a good explanation That feels well written, but it still kinda feels like a western view on things. Like the thesis is communists actually love the nazis so they say they don't because they got betrayed and because they are embarrassed, then forgot because they said they always hated nazis. Like it might be not a bad actual analysis but I still don't really feel like I have a great grasp on who or what an average russian thinks of when they think of someone being "a nazi".
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Mar 1, 2022 15:42
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Ynglaur posted:A quick thought on Geneva Convention chat. The Convention does have the idea of proportional retaliation. So if Army B summarily executes 100 POWs from Army B, Army B can do the same to 100 of it's POWs from Army A. ......uh, what? I don't think that's true.
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Mar 1, 2022 15:42
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MonikaTSarn posted:I just realized something: If it's true that many of the russian soldiers didn't even know they were going to war, then some of them will have died to drone strikes without even knowing they were in any danger. From just another boring training excercise to burning to death in a second without even any chance to desert or disobey orders. No chance to call home and tell their family they are going to be in danger. No way to say goodbye to their loved ones. He's sending thousand of teenagers on suicide missions. This is just monstrous, how can Putin work with the military if he treats them like this ? Do his generals not have any kind of sympathy for their own people ? Sorry, but you're portraying those soldiers as more naive than it is reasonable. They crossed the border with countless tanks and other hardware. The only way they could have thought they were still peacefully doing their own thing within Russia, when some wild Ukranians started to shoot at them is if they accepted the propaganda that the Eastern Ukraine already declared to be part of it. They went to the border to do some posturing and suddenly Putin told them to cross it. There's no big ambiguity there.
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Mar 1, 2022 15:43
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mlmp08 posted:I think your politically motivated means to an end thinking is bad and short-sighted and wrong I`m really conflicted on this. I personally think there is something rather naive in expecting people facing literal annihilation to adhere to philosophical value-based principles. We are not talking about a rhetorical "These people pose a nebulous threat" rationale used to torture terrorists, but an actual gun pointed to the head. As much as this is a slippery slope, and as much as the Ukrainian regime should certainly face the music for such actions if they make it in the end, tut-tutting at them in the current circumstances comes across as extremely ivory-towery. I'd rather reserve judgement until the dust settles.
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Mar 1, 2022 15:43
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MonikaTSarn posted:I just realized something: If it's true that many of the russian soldiers didn't even know they were going to war, then some of them will have died to drone strikes without even knowing they were in any danger. From just another boring training excercise to burning to death in a second without even any chance to desert or disobey orders. No chance to call home and tell their family they are going to be in danger. No way to say goodbye to their loved ones. He's sending thousand of teenagers on suicide missions. This is just monstrous, how can Putin work with the military if he treats them like this ? Do his generals not have any kind of sympathy for their own people ?
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Mar 1, 2022 15:44
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ravenkult posted:Is using thermobaric weapons against the Geneva convention? Nah, we should be looking to these videos of Russian prisoners for war crimes. The geneva conventions don't address weapon use. That's regulated by several different sets of treaties, none of which Russia has signed (for example they're not party to the Convention on Cluster Munitions). Ynglaur posted:A quick thought on Geneva Convention chat. The Convention does have the idea of proportional retaliation. So if Army B summarily executes 100 POWs from Army B, Army B can do the same to 100 of it's POWs from Army A. Can we stop making this up about violations of humanitarian law in this thread
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Mar 1, 2022 15:44
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https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world...post_type=sharequote:One of Russia's richest men says the war in Ukraine should be stopped as soon as possible as it is a "tragedy" for both sides. He may find the sanctions terribly unfair, but somehow they got him to speak out.
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Mar 1, 2022 15:45
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mlmp08 posted:I don’t even like the dumb joke posts ITT My example is probably lovely because I am not an international law expert, and the Convention as written doesn't have a lot of specificity in this area. I definitely don't know the decades of case law in this area. Regardless, my reading has "showing POWs calling home to mom and dad in an attempt to cause your opponent to stop fighting" as pretty reasonable. Edit: I'm posting in good faith. Is my reading of the reprisals section completely wrong or something?
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Mar 1, 2022 15:45
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Russian state media claiming to have encircled Mariupol now https://twitter.com/rianru/status/1498638111156457480 Looks like that city will be center piece of propaganda push
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Mar 1, 2022 15:46
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cant cook creole bream posted:Sorry, but you're portraying those soldiers as more naive than it is reasonable. They crossed the border with countless tanks and other hardware. The only way they could have thought they were still peacefully doing their own thing within Russia, when some wild Ukranians started to shoot at them is if they accepted the propaganda that the Eastern Ukraine already declared to be part of it. Going off of actual no-poo poo unsecured short wave radio chatter from the Russian units themselves this is actually true. This thread includes actual recordings of the soldiers themselves, if you want to listen and can speak Russian https://twitter.com/sbreakintl/status/1498619309618503680?t=9avDDkfNwlSH8hH4thZpjQ&s=19
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Mar 1, 2022 15:47
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Aramis posted:I`m really conflicted on this. The point of these rules is that they must apply even when you are losing. You don’t get to execute prisoners while you retreat. You don’t get to abuse prisoners because your army is losing. You don’t get to deliberately kill civilians because you think it might be effective. If you are running out of supplies, you do not get to starve prisoners to death They are deliberately iron-clad rules that apply even while you lose a war and get killed and lose your homes. That’s by design. People can say “gently caress all these rules,” and go full partisan/terrorist, but there are serious consequences to this, both legal and otherwise.
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Mar 1, 2022 15:47
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cant cook creole bream posted:Sorry, but you're portraying those soldiers as more naive than it is reasonable. They crossed the border with countless tanks and other hardware. The only way they could have thought they were still peacefully doing their own thing within Russia, when some wild Ukranians started to shoot at them is if they accepted the propaganda that the Eastern Ukraine already declared to be part of it. No, see, in their most clandestine and successful operation of this "special action", the VDV went ahead and took down all the road and border signs.
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Mar 1, 2022 15:48
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Ynglaur posted:My example is probably lovely because I am not an international law expert, and the Convention as written doesn't have a lot of specificity in this area. I definitely don't know the decades of case law in this area. This is 100% false, which has been posted over and over in this thread. To quote the ICRC: quote:Accordingly, any materials that enable individual prisoners to be identified must normally be regarded as subjecting them to public curiosity and, therefore, may not be transmitted, published or broadcast. If there is a compelling public interest in revealing the identity of a prisoner (for instance, owing to their seniority or because they are wanted by justice) or if it is in the prisoner’s vital interest to do so (for example, when they go missing), then the materials may exceptionally be released, but only insofar as they respect the prisoner’s dignity. In addition, images of prisoners in humiliating or degrading situations may not be transmitted, published or broadcast unless there is a compelling reason of public interest to do so (for instance, to bring serious violations of humanitarian law to public attention) and the images do not disclose the identities of the individuals concerned. In general, the media should always resort to appropriate methods, such as blurring, pixelating or otherwise obscuring faces and name tags, altering voices or filming from a certain distance, in order to serve their function without disclosing the prisoners’ identities.
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Mar 1, 2022 15:48
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mlmp08 posted:while you lose a war and get killed and lose your homes... I'm seeing a fundamental flaw in this logic
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Mar 1, 2022 15:49
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ravenkult posted:Is using thermobaric weapons against the Geneva convention? Nah, we should be looking to these videos of Russian prisoners for war crimes. One of these two is explicitly a war crime, and it's not the thermobaric weapons.
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Mar 1, 2022 15:50
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CommieGIR posted:Trust me, there is plenty of other videos that do not involve POWs that document Russian war crimes. 
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