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CommieGIR posted:I think its fair to blame that stuff. But straight up saying "Euromaidan was a fascist US backed revolution, which is why the fascist nationalist party was unable to capture more than 2% of the vote and only one seat and couldn't stop a Jewish man being elected president" gets really really tiring. None of that stuff had happened as of a month ago, though. US foreign policy hadn't achieved any of them. What caused it all to happen was Putin's invasion order.
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Mar 1, 2022 15:04
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Orange Devil posted:As poo poo as Putin is (and again, this man is very, very poo poo), I haven't seen any indication he intends to genocide the Ukrainian people. And I think it is important that we continue to distinguish gradations in the bad things people do. If everything bad is immediately the worst possible thing then we lose perspective and also diminish the severity of the actual worst things. So like, fighting yourself to death even if you have no chance of winning against an enemy intent on genociding you is very understandable. Doing the same against an enemy attempting to enforce much less harsh demands on you is questionable. Yeah, I agree - no way is he going to start doing mass killings, he's not actually literally Hitler, or at least not Hitler on the eastern front. He might be like if Hitler in the Netherlands or in Luxembourg or Alsace or whatever (minus Holocaust-related murders) though. It would still have been pretty bad for the Netherlands even if 100% of the population had been white Christian Dutch. I think when people say "genocide" in this context they mean in the much liberal umbrella of "cultural genocide", or they are just hopelessly dramatizing things. Putin will absolutely 100% ban the Ukrainian language if he conquers the country. That said, it wouldn't be as dramatic as for, say, the Uighurs, since he's not going to ban orthodox Christianity or whatever. I agree it definitely diminishes the meaning of the word when it encompasses every bad act.
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Mar 1, 2022 15:26
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Knightsoul posted:Since I live in Europe I don't know what channels air in Russia. What about you? Are you in Moscow? Quit the intentionally obtuse act. It's one search away: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/russia-kremlin-censors-media-and-disperses-protesters-opposed-to-ukraine-invasion/ And we're still waiting for your undoubtedly illuminating answers: NihilCredo posted:Now stop dodging every hard question, for example:
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Mar 1, 2022 16:35
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NihilCredo posted:Quit the intentionally obtuse act. It's one search away: He's going to have trouble answering for a bit cause he's eaten a probe.
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Mar 1, 2022 16:41
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NATO expanded eastward against russia's specific wishes, it *really* doesn't get more specific than that. you can argue that it's stupid that russian leaders are "inconvenienced" over that, but they feel threatened by NATO meanwhile policy makers have known they feel that way since the 90s and didn't give a poo poo, and now we're in poo poo because nobody gave a poo poo about anything except expanding NATO to sell more NATO compliant weapons to new NATO members, and now we're about to enter cold war 2, and same people responsible for the bullshit get to make even more money selling even more weapons
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Mar 1, 2022 16:55
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Well fortunately Russia wrecking their economy, military, and political standing will stop NATO expansion once and for all lol
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Mar 1, 2022 17:09
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Saladman posted:Yeah, I agree - no way is he going to start doing mass killings, he's not actually literally Hitler, or at least not Hitler on the eastern front. He might be like if Hitler in the Netherlands or in Luxembourg or Alsace or whatever (minus Holocaust-related murders) though. It would still have been pretty bad for the Netherlands even if 100% of the population had been white Christian Dutch. I think Putin has been very clear that he wants to erase the idea of Ukraine as a culture or a country, to break it up and replace it with an idea of a pan-Slavic Greater Russia (which would also include Belarus). It is clear that his initial plan is to kill or imprison a broad swathe of Ukrainians that would resist being conquered (which certainly could include the leadership of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine), and that ultimately he wants to colonize the region with people that he views as culturally and racially reliable. While I understand that "genocide" is sometimes thrown around too freely, in this situation I'm not sure what other word to use. He wants to violently destroy the concept of being Ukrainian. Kaal fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Mar 1, 2022 |
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Mar 1, 2022 17:16
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Truga posted:NATO expanded eastward against russia's specific wishes, it *really* doesn't get more specific than that. you can argue that it's stupid that russian leaders are "inconvenienced" over that, but they feel threatened by NATO Ah yes, NATO bullied Putin into doing what he's doing. He feels threatened by a defensive alliance not capable or even designed to invade Russia. And again: A lot of Eastern European countries joined NATO precisely for the reason that Ukraine is facing today: They spent years under the USSR, they don't want to go back. Putin has made it clear, even in his early days, that his goal was to rebuild the Russian empire. This isn't about NATO. This is about imperial colonialism by a kleptocratic state.
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Mar 1, 2022 17:19
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Truga posted:NATO expanded eastward against russia's specific wishes, it *really* doesn't get more specific than that. you can argue that it's stupid that russian leaders are "inconvenienced" over that, but they feel threatened by NATO Really getting sick of of the arrogant stance purporting that NATO and the US had all the agency. EEU countries *wanted* to be part of NATO more than anything else, even the EU. Why? I dunno, maybe because of a few decades of imposed communism and occupation in the 20th century, and a few hundred years of Russian aggression and occupation before that? The general EEU stance relative to Russia can be summarized with “she can go and suck my dick”. And that’s for a whole bunch of reasons
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Mar 1, 2022 17:25
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CommieGIR posted:Ah yes, NATO bullied Putin into doing what he's doing. He feels threatened by a defensive alliance not capable or even designed to invade Russia. The Baltic countries explicitly asked to be allowed to join, because they knew from the beginning that, next to Russia, they were basically a speed bump.
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Mar 1, 2022 17:38
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morothar posted:Really getting sick of of the arrogant stance purporting that NATO and the US had all the agency. EEU countries *wanted* to be part of NATO more than anything else, even the EU. Why? I dunno, maybe because of a few decades of imposed communism and occupation in the 20th century, and a few hundred years of Russian aggression and occupation before that? NATO could have easily said "actually no" and we 100% wouldn't be in cold war 2 in europe right now, so yes, it had all the agency. of loving course ex-soviet countries wanted to join with putin next door who wouldn't? doesn't mean nato had to accept them knowing full well what it's leading to. them defence contracts tho
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Mar 1, 2022 17:44
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Truga posted:NATO could have easily said "actually no" and we 100% wouldn't be in cold war 2 in europe right now, so yes, it had all the agency. Of course we would. If we had said 'actually no' then free Europe would be staring at a row of destabilised Russian client states yearning to join the West and the trigger point for a colour revolution and a norm-shattering Russian invasion would have just been somewhere else. e: of course if your worldview is that this is all about defence contracts and nothing to do with democracy or human rights then there isn't really anywhere for this conversation to go. That's what the Ukrainian people are fighting for right now. Their right to buy overly expensive IFVs.
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Mar 1, 2022 17:52
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People are kind of repeating themselves here at the moment. We've quite established that NATO expansion to the east is something that runs counter to Russia's wishes. Maybe that wasn't always the case in the past, but it certainly is now. That said, accepting this fact does not mean we are willing to kick Ukraine under the tanks, quite the opposite. What we do lament is the failure of the diplomatic route, which gave way to Russian invasion, which brings with it all kinds of consequences not only to Ukraine, but for the whole continent on all levels, and we haven't even seen the final results. We've entered a new dangerous era, and we haven't a clue what it has in store of us. Which is on top of that whole climate change thing.
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Mar 1, 2022 17:55
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Truga posted:NATO could have easily said "actually no" and we 100% wouldn't be in cold war 2 in europe right now, so yes, it had all the agency. Again: Putin is the one who started a war. And he's been clear its NOT about NATO. Please stop pretending Putin is somehow devoid of responsibility for invading.
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Mar 1, 2022 17:57
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CommieGIR posted:Please stop pretending Putin is somehow devoid of responsibility for invading. i'm not? can everyone else please stop pretending NATO is?
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Mar 1, 2022 18:00
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Truga posted:NATO could have easily said "actually no" and we 100% wouldn't be in cold war 2 in europe right now, so yes, it had all the agency. 1) That NATO could have said “no” does not mean it had all the agency. Y’all are drawing a picture where NATO coerced EEU countries to join, due to some overarching conspiracy. That’s not the case: EEU countries had a choice 2) How deep into alternate bullshit history would you like to go? If EEU countries had not joined NATO, they would have mutual defense pacts as members of the EU - and poor, poor Putin would still have the same casus belli according to your logic. So what, EEU countries had a… what, loving moral or geopolitical duty to remain backwater shitholes, just in case Russia turns belligerent again? 3) Even if EEU countries remained unaligned backwaters, what leads you to assume Russia would not have taken them over, as they did with Belarus? Bottom line, I don’t see an argument for a scenario that does not end up with Russia being what they always have been: belligerent cunts. Looks like the only failure was to not allow the Ukraine to slip under one of the protective umbrellas, as that seems the only way to keep Russia out of your poo poo.
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Mar 1, 2022 18:03
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Truga posted:i'm not? can everyone else please stop pretending NATO is? It is. Putin has openly said for mode than two decades that Ukraine was not a real country, that is could be nothing but a Russian territory or satellite. The idea that this has anything to do with NATO is absurd. If he was worried about NATO, instead he could've readily dealt with Ukraine as a real state and made appeals. He did not. Because he wanted to conquer and control it. How is that NATO's fault? Mysteriously Russia keeps doing these invasion too, often to countries with no intent of being in nor anywhere near NATO. Is NATO responsible for Russia invading those as well? Is Russia so unhinged, so out of control that even the mere mention of NATO is enough to make Putin snap and invade?
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Mar 1, 2022 18:06
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morothar posted:So what, EEU countries had a… what, loving moral or geopolitical duty to remain backwater shitholes, just in case Russia turns belligerent again? i've no evidence to support russia wouldn't try this, but i'm of the opinion that currently, belarus is in a much better position than ukraine, and ukraine was trying to join EU/NATO while belarus wasn't that's not me endorsing russia, or saying there aren't big problems with the belorussian situation, just that trying to walk a tightrope between two great powers/empires is probably better than a just blindly believing one side they'll let you into their block *any day now* while the other keeps screaming at you that this is a bad loving idea. and that was before the whole invasion thing started CommieGIR posted:Is Russia so unhinged, so out of control that even the mere mention of NATO is enough to make Putin snap and invade? i mean, loving clearly?? we wouldn't be having this convo otherwise ffs
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Mar 1, 2022 18:09
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Truga posted:i've no evidence to support russia wouldn't try this, but i'm of the opinion that currently, belarus is in a much better position than ukraine, and ukraine was trying to join EU/NATO while belarus wasn't Belarus is also effectively a puppet state, with a referendum in the last week that effectively allowed Russia to use them as a staging area for nuclear weapons. Belarus also, apparently, had next to no say in the staging of a Russian invasion force against their neighbor. Are you saying that is what Ukraine should've been shooting for? Truga posted:i mean, loving clearly?? we wouldn't be having this convo otherwise ffs Then maybe NATO isn't the problem
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Mar 1, 2022 18:10
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CommieGIR posted:Belarus is also effectively a puppet state, with a referendum in the last week that effectively allowed Russia to use them as a staging area for nuclear weapons. if the alternative is an invasion and a war, yes, every time half of europe is a staging ground for US military, we can have this convo after we remove them otherwise it's just a bunch of hypocritic drivel CommieGIR posted:Then maybe NATO isn't the problem ah, yes, only russia/EE countries have agency
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Mar 1, 2022 18:12
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CommieGIR posted:It is. Putin has openly said for mode than two decades that Ukraine was not a real country, that is could be nothing but a Russian territory or satellite. Following Putin's logic here, it certainly wouldn't be beneficial to his goals if Ukraine went under the protection of NATO, since that would be Russian land under the rule of corrupt western power. But let's do a compromise, since it's getting tiresome, let's just say it may have something to do with NATO. 
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Mar 1, 2022 18:12
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Truga posted:i've no evidence to support russia wouldn't try this, but i'm of the opinion that currently, belarus is in a much better position than ukraine, and ukraine was trying to join EU/NATO while belarus wasn't You mean being a puppet state that’s de facto been absorbed into Greater Russia and that’s run as a dictatorship is better? I’m not sure even the Ukrainians would agree, or else they would no be fighting to keep Ukraine indpendent. Never mind that’s not the relevant comparison: it’s whether Belarus is in a better position than the other EEU countries. Because if not, it suggests yet again that the only mistake was not to make Ukraine part of NATO or a EU candidate.
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Mar 1, 2022 18:13
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Truga posted:if the alternative is an invasion and a war, yes, every time Who invaded whom again? One of these groups had the agency to not start a war, yet they did. It was not NATO. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Mar 1, 2022 |
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Mar 1, 2022 18:17
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lmao post-CW NATO as the staging ground for us millitary, just total ideological poisoning beyond any semblance of remaining reason - an utter failure to interface with reality
steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Mar 1, 2022 |
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Mar 1, 2022 18:25
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Guys, I'm not endorsing the Chinese government here, I'm just saying that if the Uyghurs had just been smart enough to speak Mandarin and renounce Allah they would be in a much better position today.
NihilCredo fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Mar 1, 2022 |
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Mar 1, 2022 18:28
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It's cool how we've all memory holed Libya. NATO is a imperialist tool, to enforce empire.you know how we know this?during the cold war there was a total of 0 (zero) military engagements by nato. After the cold war? a loving lot. Now, you maybe saying "AP, those are good things that NATO did." And I'm going"buddy, the gently caress is a defense alliance doing bombing Libya and training the afghan army to such resounding success?" The only thing Putin has against NATO it's that it's doing the empirelasing for the other side. We've learned nothing, continue to learn nothing, and the same poo poo keeps happening.
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Mar 1, 2022 21:22
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:It's cool how we've all memory holed Libya. I'm having trouble identifying if this post is sarcastic or not, especially with the grammar/spelling mistakes. Whatever it is, you do you!
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Mar 1, 2022 21:26
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Lenin Stimpy posted:I'm having trouble identifying if this post is sarcastic or not, especially with the grammar/spelling mistakes. Whatever it is, you do you! It's Schrodinger's sarcastic, because Diogenes is my spirit animal.
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Mar 1, 2022 21:31
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:It's cool how we've all memory holed Libya. Amazingly, NATO can be both an imperialist tool, and a defense organization that EEU countries want to join. Or, really pragmatically: a country may have a preference which imperialist sphere of influence they want to belog to. Turns out, if you’re a proper member of one, chances are you’re not going to be molested by the other.
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Mar 1, 2022 21:38
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Conversely during the Cold War the Warsaw Pact had many military engagements, although they were kind enough to keep them between themselves!
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Mar 1, 2022 21:49
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The GWOT era yolo interventions were really dumb but leaving the Baltics and Poland up for Russia to work off their postimperial frustrations on would have helped no one, least of all Russia.
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Mar 1, 2022 22:06
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The Baltics are incredibly lucky to be in NATO right now and this is reflected in their populations being incredibly pro-NATO. As tiny, militarily weak states that share a border with Russia, have large Russian minorities, and that were historically part of the Russian Empire, they would absolutely have been invaded by Putin without their current NATO membership. As hilarious(ly awful) as it is watching tankies from America or Western Europe trying to argue about how evil NATO is the proof is in the pudding: the number of former USSR/Warsaw Pact states that voluntarily joined it, and their populations that are all incredibly pro-NATO.
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Mar 1, 2022 22:38
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Truga posted:i've no evidence to support russia wouldn't try this, but i'm of the opinion that currently, belarus is in a much better position than ukraine, and ukraine was trying to join EU/NATO while belarus wasn't Who wouldn't want to live in a repressive shithole where voicing any opposition gets you disappeared? Seems like we should simply let Russia take over all of Europe, Putin won't feel threatened then!
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Mar 1, 2022 22:46
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Fame Douglas posted:Who wouldn't want to live in a repressive shithole where voicing any opposition gets you disappeared? Then Putin would be forced to scour the very depths of space in search of places to denazify
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Mar 1, 2022 22:49
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On the subject of surrendering or not to a much stronger enemy... Ukraine's position is similar to Croatia's in 1991. As a new-born country, it had no armed forces, while Serbia/Yugoslavia's were in the top 3 in Europe, if I remember correctly. The idea of surrendering wasn't even entertained at any level and, while circumstances are different, Croatia did win full independence after four years.
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Mar 2, 2022 00:16
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Putin does not want Ukraine in NATO but that in itself is entirely insufficient. Ukraine as a sovereign nation is anathema to Putin. We know this from his published essay On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians , his recent speech where he called Ukrainian statehood a fiction and the recently published op ed by another author on multiple Russian government media platforms on the "Ukrainian question" and "historic responsibility". Ideally Ukraine is no doubt to be subordinated to Russia following the Belarus model which is to say to gradually become a de facto Russian province with a president instead of a governor. The process was to start with Ukraine joining the Eurasian Customs Union but the revolution in 2014 meant Ukraine instead signed the EU Association Agreement. The turn towards the EU was the great schism from which everything has since developed. In a 2013 meeting in Yalta on the Black Sea ed the Russian representative directly told all involved what would happen if the agreement was signed: The Guardian posted:The Kremlin aide added that the political and social cost of EU integration could also be high, and allowed for the possibility of separatist movements springing up in the Russian-speaking east and south of Ukraine. He suggested that if Ukraine signed the agreement, Russia would consider the bilateral treaty that delineates the countries' borders to be void. The war in 2014 resulted not from an application for NATO membership but from a trade agreement with the EU. Since then Ukrainian public opinion has been thoroughly entrenched against Russia to the extent it is impossible to bribe Ukrainian elites or carry out a coup that will not immediately be overthrown again. In other words, Ukrainian democracy can no longer be subverted or co-opted to achieve Russian aims which leaves only the option to destroy it which can only be realized through force. Much is said of the Russian governments position on national security and how it is necesarry and even preferable to accomodate it. I accept that it is what it is but not that it is rational or in the interest of Russia. However, It is perhaps worth noting that the West also has an ideological foundation it takes very seriously. Democracy, free speech and other values are deeply embedded in our institutions and a source of immense pride while a sordid history of imperialism and colonialism looms large. For these reasons, if a democracy expresses its will to join the West and adopt its values in an equal partnership there is deep institutional, cultural and historical reasons why it will be taken very seriously and why a nation attempting coercion to prevent it, citing spheres of influence of all things, will only galvanize resolve. It's a fundamental misreading and miscalculation on part of Putin.
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Mar 2, 2022 03:32
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steinrokkan posted:Then Putin would be forced to scour the very depths of space in search of places to denazify Someone show him Iron Sky and maybe he'll gently caress off to the Moon and leave everyone on Earth alone.
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Mar 2, 2022 06:01
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Owling Howl posted:However, It is perhaps worth noting that the West also has an ideological foundation it takes very seriously. Democracy, free speech and other values are deeply embedded in our institutions I can understand that someone might believe this if they were to look only at our rhetoric. If you look at our actions though it is clear that this is utter horseshit.
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Mar 2, 2022 09:00
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Orange Devil posted:I can understand that someone might believe this if they were to look only at our rhetoric. If you look at our actions though it is clear that this is utter horseshit.
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Mar 2, 2022 09:48
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Orange Devil posted:I can understand that someone might believe this if they were to look only at our rhetoric. If you look at our actions though it is clear that this is utter horseshit. If you believe the EU does not take this seriously then you really don't understand Brussels or western Europe for that matter.
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Mar 2, 2022 10:25
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