[Marx] I put on my anti-coat and wizard hat

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Marx] I put on my anti-coat and wizard hat

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Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
(and can't post for 20 days!)

I've brought it up before, but there's no amount of good rhetoric that will convince people to commit themselves to what they can clearly see is a no hope political movement. Communists have to build up real organizational power so we can make a material difference in people's lives. For people to believe in people power it has to be demonstrated.

The obvious downside to this is approach is, that's exactly why the Black Panthers were annihilated.

# ? Feb 23, 2022 05:40

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 09:20

Doktor Avalanche: Dec 30, 2008

if the only way to get into power is to do poo poo for people and the only way to do poo poo for people is to get into power, that's a catch 22

# ? Feb 23, 2022 05:44

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

When "leftists" think that the masses are unthinking dullards who don't understand their own self-interests, it's probably because they're insufferable pricks who don't understand how to communicate.

Orwell wrote a better book on this topic

# ? Feb 23, 2022 06:03

dead gay comedy forums: Oct 21, 2011

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

I've brought it up before, but there's no amount of good rhetoric that will convince people to commit themselves to what they can clearly see is a no hope political movement. Communists have to build up real organizational power so we can make a material difference in people's lives. For people to believe in people power it has to be demonstrated.

The obvious downside to this is approach is, that's exactly why the Black Panthers were annihilated.

# ? Feb 23, 2022 06:24

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

Doctor Jeep posted:

if the only way to get into power is to do poo poo for people and the only way to do poo poo for people is to get into power, that's a catch 22

It's not a closed system.

# ? Feb 23, 2022 06:31

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
(and can't post for 20 days!)

Halloween Jack posted:

Orwell wrote a better book on this topic

Yeah, Wigan Pier? That's why it's so funny that he'd later write fiction that pisses all over the working class. Wigan Pier itself was also a lot of poverty tourism from a middle class kid who would never really connect with their experiences.

# ? Feb 23, 2022 06:33

Pentecoastal Elites: Feb 27, 2007

Cpt_Obvious posted:

Imo the masses disassociating themselves from politics and losing faith in the current system is evidence that they are smart enough.

The average person who is mostly to totally apathetic about politics has a profoundly better understanding of their influence on, and the mental cost of, their investment in the political landscape of America on both an emotional and a material level than anyone who posts in cspam, including myself

# ? Feb 23, 2022 06:41

Sarrisan: Oct 9, 2012

Im an idiot. So take the below post with salt -

This notion that people are too stupid for revolution is kinda funny to me, since I'm currently listening to a podcast of Chinese revolutionary history. Thats a whole rear end country of largely illiterate ppl who realized what was up and largely succeeded in their struggle.

Was it hard? Yeah, gently caress loads of people died, including thousands of communists before the masses were organized to fight for themselves. The fact that they won anyway is amazing considering the body counts they routinely dealt with, frankly.

# ? Feb 23, 2022 07:02

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
(and can't post for 20 days!)

Sarrisan posted:

Im an idiot. So take the below post with salt -

This notion that people are too stupid for revolution is kinda funny to me, since I'm currently listening to a podcast of Chinese revolutionary history. Thats a whole rear end country of largely illiterate ppl who realized what was up and largely succeeded in their struggle.

Was it hard? Yeah, gently caress loads of people died, including thousands of communists before the masses were organized to fight for themselves. The fact that they won anyway is amazing considering the body counts they routinely dealt with, frankly.

If the Chinese communists had committed to People's War early on, they could've avoided all the stupid mistakes from trying to do German-style conventional warfare. They might've even avoided the Long March entirely.

# ? Feb 23, 2022 07:15

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

Pentecoastal Elites posted:

The average person who is mostly to totally apathetic about politics has a profoundly better understanding of their influence on, and the mental cost of, their investment in the political landscape of America on both an emotional and a material level than anyone who posts in cspam, including myself

I dunno about that, but I don't think you can sway people through propaganda so severely that you prevent instability and collapse. The internet's pandora's box ain't closing and people have educated themselves under much more difficult circumstances. People aren't "dumber" because they've lost brain mass, it's that garbage has been shoveled into their skull and now people are tuning out because it they smell something is off and are asking what the gently caress the Ukraine has to do with gas and food prices.

Cpt_Obvious has issued a correction as of 07:19 on Feb 23, 2022

# ? Feb 23, 2022 07:16

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

socialism is an answer. it's a very unpleasant answer because it implies that painful and risky changes are necessary. if people can find other answers to their questions they generally prefer those, or understandable reasons.

# ? Feb 23, 2022 11:59

R. Guyovich: Dec 25, 1991

Halloween Jack posted:

Orwell wrote a better book on this topic

without knowing precisely which book you're referring to i can say with 100 percent certainty that this is not true for any topic

# ? Feb 23, 2022 14:44

Fish of hemp: Apr 1, 2011; A friendly little mouse!

Sarrisan posted:

This notion that people are too stupid for revolution is kinda funny to me

This is not true, you are right.

It's that American leftists are too cowards for revolution.

"But we might face violence like Black Panthers!" :cry:

So? Panthers knew that and did it anyway. Every social revolution has met with violence. If you have problem with that then stop calling yourself communist or whatever.

Orwell went to Spain kill fascists. You can't even organize a loving union because you're afraid of "repression".

Capital has won, you can stop pretending that you care. If you did, you'd do something about it. Something real instead of posting.

# ? Feb 23, 2022 18:05

pissinthewind: Nov 11, 2021

Fish of hemp posted:

This is not true, you are right.

It's that American leftists are too cowards for revolution.

"But we might face violence like Black Panthers!"

So? Panthers knew that and did it anyway. Every social revolution has met with violence. If you have problem with that then stop calling yourself communist or whatever.

Orwell went to Spain kill fascists. You can't even organize a loving union because you're afraid of "repression".

Capital has won, you can stop pretending that you care. If you did, you'd do something about it. Something real instead of posting.

um sir, be careful with that kinda talk people might call you mentally ill or something

but also you are 100% right, the "left" as it is in the US will only fight for what is right so long as it doesn't have any effect on their own personal comfort, with some notable few exceptions. its mostly just theorycrafting chair sitters

# ? Feb 23, 2022 18:20

PhilippAchtel: May 31, 2011

Broke: Stalin was a strong man of color

Woke: Lenin was a strong man of color

https://twitter.com/kasperposting/status/1496224695473086477

Bespoke: Mussolini was strong man of color

https://twitter.com/FundanJacob/status/1496413907187032064

# ? Feb 23, 2022 18:21

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

Fish of hemp posted:

This is not true, you are right.

It's that American leftists are too cowards for revolution.

"But we might face violence like Black Panthers!"

So? Panthers knew that and did it anyway. Every social revolution has met with violence. If you have problem with that then stop calling yourself communist or whatever.

Orwell went to Spain kill fascists. You can't even organize a loving union because you're afraid of "repression".

Capital has won, you can stop pretending that you care. If you did, you'd do something about it. Something real instead of posting.

That moment when you definitely understand materialism.

Cpt_Obvious has issued a correction as of 18:54 on Feb 23, 2022

# ? Feb 23, 2022 18:22

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

pissinthewind posted:

um sir, be careful with that kinda talk people might call you mentally ill or something

but also you are 100% right, the "left" as it is in the US will only fight for what is right so long as it doesn't have any effect on their own personal comfort, with some notable few exceptions. its mostly just theorycrafting chair sitters

so this is probably gonna be dumb because i don't understand theory but isn't this the inherent problem with any revolution starting in the imperial core? by the time material conditions here deteriorate to the point that revolution is possible, other revolutions will have been popping off elsewhere for some time, so isn't it essentially pointless to ask how we can start a revolution here and instead we should look at how we can support workers abroad?

# ? Feb 23, 2022 18:25

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Azathoth posted:

so this is probably gonna be dumb because i don't understand theory but isn't this the inherent problem with any revolution starting in the imperial core? by the time material conditions here deteriorate to the point that revolution is possible, other revolutions will have been popping off elsewhere for some time, so isn't it essentially pointless to ask how we can start a revolution here and instead we should look at how we can support workers abroad?

quote:

Taking the entire globe, if North America and Western Europe can be called 'the cities of the world', then Asia, Africa and Latin America constitute 'the rural areas of the world'. Since World War II, the proletarian revolutionary movement has for various reasons been temporarily held back in the North American and West European capitalist countries, while the people�s revolutionary movement in Asia, Africa and Latin America has been growing vigorously. In a sense, the contemporary world revolution also presents a picture of the encirclement of cities by the rural areas. In the final analysis, the whole cause of world revolution hinges on the revolutionary struggles of the Asian, African and Latin American peoples who make up the overwhelming majority of the world�s population. The socialist countries should regard it as their internationalist duty to support the people�s revolutionary struggles in Asia, Africa and Latin America.

- Che Guevara

yes, you are correct; read Settlers by J Sakai

# ? Feb 23, 2022 18:29

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

gradenko_2000 posted:

- Che Guevara

yes, you are correct; read Settlers by J Sakai

Thank you

# ? Feb 23, 2022 18:40

pissinthewind: Nov 11, 2021

I think I probably agree with you, so far in the US even the revolutionary movements that have been made have had little lasting effect, the civil rights movement most notably, but also women's rights and LGBTQ movements are currently being stripped of the past decades of gains across the US with little or no pushback. Taking the Che quote in, is there value then in physically moving away from the core of imperialism to provide material support to socialist movements abroad? And if so where?

Or are 'revolutionaries' in the core of imperialism stuck just making as much noise as possible in support of movements abroad/sending money overseas to support revolutionary groups?

pissinthewind has issued a correction as of 18:45 on Feb 23, 2022

# ? Feb 23, 2022 18:40

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

I dunno, I feel like the unions are just now regaining strength in the imperial core. Does that mean it will play a major role on the world stage? Maybe not, but not everything has to be aimed at the big picture. Improving material conditions are worth pursuing as an end itself even if it only helps those living directly under the boot.

# ? Feb 23, 2022 19:24

dead gay comedy forums: Oct 21, 2011

Azathoth posted:

so this is probably gonna be dumb because i don't understand theory but isn't this the inherent problem with any revolution starting in the imperial core

that would be the preliminary thesis yes but as someone in the periphery I disagree vehemently. Especially as we are far past the 60s and 70s

we have quite a loving gap on Marxist thought in the West right now because the 80s saw it gone to a halt. I do not mean academic Marxist thought, though; I mean considerations about society and the world at large through Marxist framing, like Castro, Guevara, Marighella, Davis, etc. This gap is one hell of a loving problem that, imho, we are only addressing right now. In the first time in 40+ years, a lot of people worldwide at the same time are trying to come up with ideas on how you deal with the world right now in order to do a socialism.

The invulnerability of the imperial core is one of those past ideas that simply holds on but hasn't been up to much scrutiny. That idea hasn't been updated much to consider the peculiarities of financialization and deconstruction of productive capital, nor the Dengist theory of capital sequestration - how great is the so-called imperial core if they do not hold dominance over productive industrial forces? - neither how dramatic postmodern alienation would become, etc. Yes, of course that doing agitation in Los Angeles is going to be an absolute gently caress to do when there's a police apparatus worth a small army, but American labor has been able to exert critical pressure in ways unseen before the pandemic

a rather interesting one: the shift of productive forces towards China might have created exactly a possibility thus unheard of the imperial center suffering hollow spots of power, sorta like swiss cheese. Instead of the whole structure crumbling down more or less in a cascade failure, as empires usually do, several parts of it can be seized towards new ends

# ? Feb 23, 2022 22:19

Southpaugh: May 26, 2007; Smokey Bacon

Yeah the imperial core as we know it is hollowed out and de-industrialised. In material terms its not the imperial core that all our faves wrote about. I suppose it should be defined differently but our inheritance as anglophone marxist shitkickers is to take swings at the problem absent any major new or bright voices in the anglosphere.

# ? Feb 24, 2022 01:14

R. Guyovich: Dec 25, 1991

mao referred to imperialism as the primary contradiction facing world communists, and that is still true. if we understand the us to be the chieftan of the imperialist world-system and the prime enforcer of capitalist cartels, then it is our duty to fracture that system through whatever forms of resistance are possible with the present balance of forces.

this doesn't mean no domestic organization can be made for fear of interfering with that mission, it just means any action taken should be with a broader strategy in mind

# ? Feb 24, 2022 01:27

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

https://twitter.com/sssaoaopppp/status/1496444805534326787

# ? Feb 24, 2022 04:10

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

sigh

quote:

Why Socialist Alternative is Launching a Caucus in DSA
March 1, 2022

By Erin Brightwell, Member UPTE-CWA 9119, East Bay DSA, Socialist Alternative Executive Committee

Socialists face immense challenges and opportunities in 2022. The Republicans and even far right elements are gaining support due to the anti-working class nature of the Biden administration and rising capitalist crisis with historic levels of inflation. Historic attacks on women�s rights have already begun, with more likely coming in the next few months. At the same time, the �Great Resignation� and �Striketober� of 2021 have the potential to become widespread workplace action in 2022 with organizing drives, strikes, and attempts to transform existing unions into the fighting organizations that working people need. And now, with a devastating war in Ukraine, it is more important than ever that socialists take a fighting lead in building a working-class movement against imperialism and capitalist warmongering. This year will provide immense tests for the socialist left, and Socialist Alternative wants to fight shoulder-to-shoulder with DSA comrades in these looming battles as we debate the way forward to victory.

Socialist Alternative has had members in DSA for several years. We increased our involvement in DSA a year ago, and have worked on shared campaigns and brought our ideas into DSA debates. Preserving the seat of Seattle socialist city councilmember Kshama Sawant, a member of SA and DSA, who has always run independent of the two parties of capitalism, was a crucial victory for the socialist movement last December, and DSA members worked side-by-side with Socialist Alternative to help achieve this victory. Despite being forced into a defensive position by the right-wing recall effort, we waged an offensive campaign for rent control and against the ruling class attack on the Black Lives Matter movement. While taking the fight directly to the right wing, we relentlessly exposed the Seattle Democratic establishment which would have been quite relieved to see Kshama Sawant kicked off the council. The successful battle against the recall, as well as Kshama Sawant�s and Socialist Alternative�s eight years on the council, highlight the power of a class struggle, movement building approach to electoral politics.

Now we are launching a Socialist Alternative caucus in DSA. The goal of our caucus is to fight for the ideas that can best help build and strengthen the working class and socialist movement on all terrains of struggle, and for a more visible profile within DSA that clarifies our dual members� affiliation with our politics. The Socialist Alternative caucus will consist of SA members who are also members of DSA, and who fight for our program of a revolutionary transformation of society along democratic socialist lines. We are committed to an international approach to socialism, and are part of International Socialist Alternative. We are taking the step of launching a caucus because revolutionary socialist ideas are becoming more and more essential to the working class, as political polarization, the deep political crisis of the Democratic Party, and the absence of a strong independent left political force threatens to open the door to further growth of the far right.

Biden and the Squad

That the Democrats are in deep trouble heading into the midterm elections is not debatable. Biden�s poll numbers are in freefall, most particularly among young people. In a stark reversal from the beginning of 2021, more Americans now identify as Republicans than Democrats, and the gap hasn�t been this large in favor of the Republicans since 1995. The Democrats are paying the price for the utter failure of the Biden administration to improve the lives of working class Americans since the pandemic stimulus bill was signed back in March. The massive opening for the Republicans this November, whose ranks are dominated by right wingers loyal to the bigoted billionaire Trump, should be of grave concern to the socialist movement.

We have commented before on the rightward drift of the leadership of Democratic Socialists of America. To be blunt, since Biden�s election, many DSA leaders have provided left cover to Bernie Sanders and the Squad, as Sanders and the Squad have abandoned the program on which they were elected. From Force-the-Vote to the Bowman Affair, DSA leadership failed to confront their endorsed representatives as those representatives entered into a doomed compact with the longtime loyal servant of capitalism, Joe Biden.

The Squad, operating with the thin Democratic margin in the House, could have used that leverage to force through progressive reforms. As we have argued, there was a huge opportunity for them to fight for pro-working class demands like Medicare For All and a Green New Deal in the halls of Congress while also helping to mobilize a movement for their program in the streets that DSA could have played a major role in building. Instead of using their power to win concrete victories and build the socialist movement, they limited their activity to being the loyal opposition of the Democratic party in power, and they abandoned their own program.

The limited program the Squad did support, Biden�s original agenda, now lies in ruins and the Republicans are poised to reap the windfall of disappointment generated by those failures. The Democratic Party is increasingly discredited among large sections of the population. Socialists have every motivation to make a decisive break from the Democrats, firstly because, at its essence, the Democratic Party is a party of and for capitalism that will sell out the working class at any opportunity, but also because it is a deeply damaged brand. Biden is now the president of a failed pandemic response, expiring federal relief, and inflation. Furthermore, the �dirty break� inside-outside strategy toward the Democrats has not proven itself as a viable strategy to win concrete victories for our movement, or to strengthen the forces of movements from below. We believe that as an immediate step toward a new left party, DSA candidates should run as independent socialist candidates, not Democrats, as Kshama Sawant has done successfully now to win three elections in Seattle.

Massive Opportunities in the Labor Movement

The opportunities in labor are tremendous. The unionization of Starbucks represents a threat to the regime of precarious, low wage jobs on which corporate profits rest, if the drive succeeds through the use of class struggle strategies. There are many hard battles to be won before Starbucks workers have a union contract that wins gains in wages, benefits, and working conditions, but such a victory would put big employers into panic mode. Unionizing efforts at logistics behemoth Amazon would be an even more serious threat to the capitalist class. Workers and union leaders will need to have a discussion of the failed Amazon union drive in Alabama, as well as review the results and lessons from the upcoming re-vote, in order to win against one of the world�s most powerful corporations.

After decades when most labor leaders adhered to a policy of concessionary bargaining and avoiding conflict with the bosses, there is a new mood brewing in union halls. In recent months, workers at Kellogg, Nabisco, John Deere, and the Western Washington Carpenters Union voted down tentative agreements pushed by their leadership and went on strike or extended strikes to fight for more.

Workers defying the concessionary policies of their union leadership was an important feature of the �Red for Ed� teachers� strike wave beginning in West Virginia in 2018. DSA members played a vital role in building and leading several of these teachers� struggles � a contrast from DSA�s general approach of organizing strike support without taking a position on the questions facing striking workers. Going on strike means entering into an open battle with the employer, and questions of strategy and tactics are paramount, and are essentially political questions. Socialists should not concede strike strategy and tactics to the existing union leadership, but should fight for those steps that will further the confidence, organization, and political consciousness of workers who move into struggle, that are necessary to win.

The socialist movement needs to have a working knowledge of labor history, and an analysis of the political character of the labor movement so that it can take a position on what tactics will lead to victory for workers in struggle. In an amendment to the main resolution on labor that dual DSA/SA members raised at last year�s DSA convention we argued that, �The main barrier to [rebuilding a strong and fighting labor movement] is the majority of the existing labor leadership who run their unions in a top-down fashion with little involvement of the rank-and-file, accept far too many compromises and concessions, are unwilling to lead militant struggle, and give cover and support to the Democratic establishment.� From the ousting of the old guard in the Teamsters national elections, to the multiple rejected tentative agreements of �Striketober,� our analysis from last July proved highly accurate. We look forward to continuing to contribute our ideas on strengthening DSA�s labor involvement.

The current �labor shortage,� which is one of the factors creating a favorable moment for labor organizing, will not last forever. The socialist movement, including DSA, should be enthusiastically and critically involving itself in labor struggles, providing not just material support and �bodies on the line,� but also arguing for a strategy necessary to win, for labor leaders to take the fight directly to the employers, and for rank-and-file workers to organize to replace their leaders if necessary.

Fighting War and Oppression

In this age of inter-imperialist rivalry creating an increasingly volatile global political landscape, socialists have a historic role to play in leading the fightback. This will be no easy task. We will often be swimming against the stream, tasked with finding a program of demands that can cut through the sea of nationalist propaganda from all sides and mobilize a mass movement against imperialism and war. Millions of people in the U.S. and globally are watching the destruction and bloodshed in Ukraine, economic devastation facing working people in Russia, and alarming threats of escalation from Putin and NATO � are looking for ways to take a stand against war. By insisting that only a fighting cross-border working class movement � not capitalist diplomacy or the ruling class� �peace-keeping� attempts that have time and again resulted in disaster � can end the war and guarantee the right to self-determination, the left can expand the reach of socialist ideas, expose the rotten capitalist system at the root of the crisis, and build our forces into a real mass movement. DSA should call demonstrations and organize workplace actions with political messaging that emphasize an alternative to the dead-end strategy of �taking a side� between one or another national ruling class, and instead building a movement based in international working class solidarity.

In 2020, the biggest mass movement in history exploded onto the streets of America, with millions protesting racist police violence in cities, suburbs, and small towns across the country. Thousands of DSA members were undoubtedly out in the streets, but DSA as an organization offered no substantial socialist leadership in the BLM movement, which ultimately won very little in the way of tangible gains.

This year, it is likely that the right-wing Supreme Court will strike a serious blow at the right to an abortion with the Dobbs case, and it is possible that the Court will entirely dismantle Roe v. Wade. With the liberal women�s organizations doing little to nothing to organize a movement in the streets to defend abortion rights, DSA has an opening, and the responsibility, to play a leading role in building a movement and linking demands for abortion rights to the fight for Medicare For All and the broader struggle against capitalism. A robust intervention by an organized force like DSA could be the difference between a historically demoralizing defeat to women�s rights and an inspiring new fight against the right wing and the Demcoratic establishment with its long record of broken promises to defend abortion rights. Part of why we are launching our caucus is to promote the need for DSA to take up this historic fight at a crucial moment, and we want to help in this struggle, arguing for a movement-building class struggle approach.

Young people and workers are no less angry today at income inequality, climate destruction, racist and sexist oppression, and hyper exploitation of workers than they were during Bernie Sanders� presidential campaigns. Demands like Medicare For All and a Green New Deal are now widely recognized and popular, the political establishment is even more severely discredited, and unions are more popular than ever. What�s missing is working class leadership that bases itself on a class struggle approach. Leadership from a sizable left force, like DSA, clearly putting forward the need for a multi-racial, multi-gender working class movement to take on the billionaire class, including Biden and the corporate Democrats, could have a dramatic impact on politics in the U.S., and by extension, globally.

The Socialist Alternative Caucus aims to put forward the case for a DSA in 2022 that runs its candidates independently of the Democratic Party, that takes the initiative to build a coordinated movement to defend abortion rights, and that intervenes in the labor movement with a class struggle approach that aims our fire squarely at the bosses and exposes union leaders who have a sellout approach. What is needed is a DSA that actively engages with movements as they develop in society, with a left, pro-working class program that connects workers� and youth�s day-to-day demands to the need to transform society along democratic socialist lines. We look forward to continuing to discuss our perspective of the tasks and opportunities facing the socialist movement with our fellow DSA members. We encourage DSA members who agree with our ideas to join the Socialist Alternative Caucus.

# ? Mar 2, 2022 00:12

tokin opposition: Apr 8, 2021; I don't jailbreak the androids, I set them free.

WATCH MARS EXPRESS (2023)

We need a word for succ, but leftist. DSA, SA, even technically Bernie and the squad.

A word we're still allowed to post, anyway.

# ? Mar 2, 2022 02:31

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

tokin opposition posted:

We need a word for succ, but leftist. DSA, SA, even technically Bernie and the squad.

A word we're still allowed to post, anyway.

they're bad and they're wrong, so might i suggest "badong"

# ? Mar 2, 2022 02:33

AnimeIsTrash: Jun 30, 2018; Can't post for 10 hours!

tokin opposition posted:

We need a word for succ, but leftist. DSA, SA, even technically Bernie and the squad.

A word we're still allowed to post, anyway.

call them gay

# ? Mar 2, 2022 02:34

Southpaugh: May 26, 2007; Smokey Bacon

tokin opposition posted:

We need a word for succ, but leftist. DSA, SA, even technically Bernie and the squad.

A word we're still allowed to post, anyway.

Centre Left.

# ? Mar 2, 2022 03:12

mycomancy: Oct 16, 2016

tokin opposition posted:

We need a word for succ, but leftist. DSA, SA, even technically Bernie and the squad.

A word we're still allowed to post, anyway.

I thought "wrecker" was perfectly fine to post.

# ? Mar 2, 2022 03:19

Honky Mao: Dec 26, 2012

Isn't DSA a bunch of libs begging to be radicalized or has that been debunked

# ? Mar 2, 2022 04:28

Pentecoastal Elites: Feb 27, 2007

They're not begging for anything other than more tepid Democrats to vote for

# ? Mar 2, 2022 04:41

Doc Hawkins: Jun 15, 2010; Dashing? But I'm not even moving!

Pentecoastal Elites posted:

They're not begging for anything other than more tepid Democrats to vote for

that's only one component of membership in the bay area, and i assume in a bunch of other places

by default i am glad to hear about the salt caucus because hopefully it'll get more people motivated to remove the "demcent ban" from the org's bylaws, which are another remnant of its antisoviet past

but i wish them luck in Being Normal, a lot of DSA caucuses have trouble with that

# ? Mar 2, 2022 04:48

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

cross-posting from another thread:

quote:

MysteriousStranger posted:
Right but this isn't even a capitalism problem this is a human problem. It's in our DNA to be assholes to wreck other peoples poo poo to get more poo poo to us. You cannot undo that without the total extinction of the human race (which I am not opposed to). So we either have some sort of lack of massive wars due to peace among the rich, we go back to war all the time cause war, war, war. Or we get wiped out. There are no good options, just least bad options.

WorldsStongestNerd posted:
In all fairness in regards to something like slavery for instance, we only have about a 150 year example of it being considered bad. And even then it continues to this day in other parts of the world while we indirectly benefit. If we were slaughtering and enslaving each other for 10000 years, then the weather parts of the world kinda stopped less than two centuries ago, that seems like an anomaly. One of those relatively peaceful periods we achieve every once in a while.

Looking at world history, even just western history, and saying we've outgrown our nature is like an alcoholic saying he got clean because he managed to not have a drink for one day. Roughly a century of certain parts of the world swearing off raping and murdering is not really a trend yet in the greater context of history. Especially when it looks like we're going to backslide in the face of climate change and resource depletion.

all right, I'm going to take a moment here to quote from Andreas Malm's "Fossil Capital":

quote:
But the factory system also required �many work-people� � with Farey � of a rather peculiar training. A weaver, smith or farmer working in his own home, shop or field maintained a pace of his own choosing and performed the moments of production as his own skills instructed him. In the factory, the labourer had to conform to the motion of the central prime mover. She was under obligation to keep pace with it, carrying out the actions directed by its array of machines in unison with a whole team of operatives who had to begin, pause, restart and stop at signals. She must submit to the command of the manufacturer and his overlookers, who enforced compliance with the rules laid down; the hands � as they were so tellingly known � should know how to exert consistent effort, respect tools as the property of others, bow to strangers, work in a closely contained crowd.16

The water mill called forth the regime of factory discipline, which was, when it first appeared, intensely repugnant to most. Who could possibly be persuaded to enlist in these barracks? �It is hard for one born in a mature industrial region, inhabited by patient and disciplined factory workers,� economic historian Arthur Redford wrote in 1926, �to realize the difficulties involved in the deliberate formation of a factory community.� The traditional culture of relatively free work, cherished not as a distant utopia but as the only known way of life, made even the destitute hesitate at entering the factory, whose architecture and regimentation resembled those of a workhouse. Even if hands did show up at the gates, there were no assurances that they would continue to turn up the next day, keep up the rhythm of work or execute the orders in due order: recruitment of workers acquiescing to the discipline soon proved to be a persistent headache for the first industrial capitalists.17

...

Meanwhile, there were the towns. Few transformations of early nineteenth-century British society were so conspicuous and widely commented upon as their explosive growth: �A new society had arisen, owing to the congregation of large masses of unskilled labour in densely populated towns,� one MP observed in 1844.65 In 1750, London was the sole English centre with a population exceeding 50,000; half a century later, there were eight such centres; another half a century later, twenty-nine, of which nine had more than 100,000 inhabitants. In 1801, 66.2 percent of the English population still resided in the countryside, but the share fell precipitously, and the 1840s saw the balance reversed forever: the census of 1851 for the first time registered a majority as living in urban areas. Scotland underwent a similar changeover with the rise and rise of Glasgow, passing Edinburgh around 1800, Paisley trailing one step behind.66

British urbanisation was a process sui generis: in 1851, the rest of the world remained overwhelmingly rural, perhaps one-tenth of humanity living in towns. The exceptionalism persisted throughout the century. In 1890, 61.9 percent of the population of England and Wales dwelled in towns with at least 10,000 inhabitants, while the figure for the country second on the list, Belgium, was 34.5 percent, France staying at 25 percent, China at 4.4 percent; by 1900, the metropolitan region of Manchester � including satellites such as Bolton, Oldham and Stockport � contained the largest concentration of human population on the planet. At no point in the century, however, did British urbanisation proceed faster than in the period 1811�1825. The first half of the 1820s marked the record with a 2.6 percent annual increase in the urban population of England. Certain towns evinced even more stunning rates, the population of Manchester swelling with an average of 3.9 percent in the 1820s, matched by several other northern industrial cities but outpaced by the metropolis growing faster than any other: Glasgow. Such a pace of urbanisation as Britain experienced in the run-up to the panic would not be attained in most advanced capitalist countries until the decades around 1900.67 In other words, the years of the most decisive transition from water to steam were immediately preceded by the greatest burst in urbanisation ever seen in Britain and probably anywhere else on earth too.

Well underway already in the seventeenth century, the exodus from the English countryside gradually accelerated before culminating in the early nineteenth, when the human flows were dominated by ex-farmers abandoning their villages for the new conurbations of Lancashire. In the forty years from 1776 to 1816, most of the increase of the urban population materialised through this steady drain of people bidding farewell to their valleys and moors. Such newcomers would hardly have been more apt to perform factory labour than if approached in their original homes, perhaps not too far from a waterfall, but they soon begot their own children. The manufacturing towns were disproportionately brimming with youth, the age cohorts most inclined to pack up and move, and all those young women and men � also the most fertile segments of the population, for whom reasons to postpone intercourse tended to disappear in cities � set about reproducing. Immigration gave way to natural increase as the largest source of urban population growth; as it happened, the shift occurred precisely in the 1810s and 1820s.68 From this point onwards, the ranks of urbanites swelled primarily with second generations: young boys and girls born and raised in towns with no personal memories of other forms of social existence. Now this offered manufacturers an unrivalled � both quantitatively and qualitatively � reservoir of labour power.

Do you understand what had happened here? During the birth of the Industrial Revolution, there was no proletarian mindset. People who were put to work in factories rebelled against the simplistic and mechanistic, yet exacting pace of factory work, because it was so much more different from their rural lives.

In order for people to become good little capitalist workers, there had to have been an entire generation born in the cities, who had no such memories of what it was like to live in a feudal, agrarian society, who would not struggle against working eighteen hours a day doing repetitive work, because they had no conception of better things being possible.

This is what Marxists mean by human behavior being shaped by the mode of production. People are not "inherently greedy" - people act according to what the system demands of them.

# ? Mar 3, 2022 15:35

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

gradenko_2000 posted:

cross-posting from another thread:

this book rocks

# ? Mar 3, 2022 15:39

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

It really is - there's been a lot of ink spilled over the question of transitioning humanity from a capitalist mindset to a socialist mindset, of the New Soviet Man, or the difference between Anarchists wanting to live as though the transition has already happened, within their communities, versus an orthodox Marxist acknowledging that this transition takes a long time and has to be planned for and marched towards, and that there will be struggles as people who still have a capitalist mindset fight against their impulses even as they already live in a socialist state, but this is the first time I've seen someone present the narrative of how it was that we'd made the transition to capitalism.

# ? Mar 3, 2022 15:45

dead gay comedy forums: Oct 21, 2011

gradenko_2000 posted:

cross-posting from another thread:

gradenko if you are enjoying that one, Karl Polanyi's The Great Transformation is going to be one hell of a read, you gonna love it

in fact that book is quite the loving answer to "humans are naturally assholes"

# ? Mar 3, 2022 16:54

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

I know I'm late to the "are humans innately evil" discussion, but if you've ever had kids I dunno how you can possibly hold that position. When a child is born, it literally doesn't even know how to eat or poo poo. A baby literally must learn how to suck titties and poop.

# ? Mar 3, 2022 17:39

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 09:20

mycomancy: Oct 16, 2016

Cpt_Obvious posted:

I know I'm late to the "are humans innately evil" discussion, but if you've ever had kids I dunno how you can possibly hold that position. When a child is born, it literally doesn't even know how to eat or poo poo. A baby literally must learn how to suck titties and poop.

It's Original Sin dogma repackaged for a secular capitalist world, OP.

# ? Mar 3, 2022 20:18

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