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Magnetic North posted:The recruiter is now complaining that I'm asking way too much and wasted everyone's time. Is it possible he doesn't understand negotiation? Or is this a ploy to get me to accept less?
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Mar 2, 2022 16:47
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^ Magnetic North posted:The recruiter is now complaining that I'm asking way too much and wasted everyone's time. Is it possible he doesn't understand negotiation? Or is this a ploy to get me to accept less?
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Mar 2, 2022 16:48
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Magnetic North posted:The recruiter is now complaining that I'm asking way too much and wasted everyone's time. Is it possible he doesn't understand negotiation? Or is this a ploy to get me to accept less? hes a dickhead gently caress him
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Mar 2, 2022 16:56
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Magnetic North posted:The recruiter is now complaining that I'm asking way too much and wasted everyone's time. Is it possible he doesn't understand negotiation? Or is this a ploy to get me to accept less? Is this a third party recruiter or one that works for the company you're trying to get hired at? If it is a third party you should've cut them out of communications weeks ago, and if it is an internal recruiter you should 
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Mar 2, 2022 16:56
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Corla Plankun posted:Is this a third party recruiter or one that works for the company you're trying to get hired at? If it is a third party you should've cut them out of communications weeks ago, and if it is an internal recruiter you should Oh well. This is probably the first time in my entire life I've (effectively) turned down an offer of employment. Doesn't feel good right now, but I am still getting like 7 LinkedIn messages a day, mostly poo poo.
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Mar 2, 2022 17:06
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Magnetic North posted:The recruiter is now complaining that I'm asking way too much and wasted everyone's time. Is it possible he doesn't understand negotiation? Or is this a ploy to get me to accept less? He doesn't get paid unless he places you in the job. Also you wouldn't believe what 3rd party recruiters can earn for placing someone in a position. I've seen 50% of annual salary paid to recruiters before, and that wasn't even for director or higher level management. Basically he feels you slipping away and now he's going to guilt/shame you into taking the position.
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Mar 2, 2022 17:06
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Magnetic North posted:Oh well. This is probably the first time in my entire life I've (effectively) turned down an offer of employment. Doesn't feel good right now, but I am still getting like 7 LinkedIn messages a day, mostly poo poo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4fTKmbtu8E You needn't worry. The second will be considerably easier.
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Mar 2, 2022 17:10
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Man, telling those guys to pound sand should feel great. They are assholes. After that last email you should feel free to tell him to gently caress himself with a rusty poleaxe.
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Mar 2, 2022 17:23
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Eric the Mauve posted:Man, telling those guys to pound sand should feel great. They are assholes. After that last email you should feel free to tell him to gently caress himself with a rusty poleaxe.
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Mar 2, 2022 17:44
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I'm still wondering if I somehow, somewhere in the process, I gave them the idea that what they talked about might be acceptable, and that makes me the rear end in a top hat here. Maybe I did, maybe I didn't, I don't think I did, I'm trying to never say a number, but it's kind of outrageous how badly the lost vacation time really hurt their offer in the end, which makes me think that this wasn't avoidable since I couldn't do the math until I saw the real number. If we assume for a second that I screwed up and lead them astray somehow, how do we avoid this? When they talk salary, just always say "I'll be happy to review that when an offer is made?" and leave it at that?
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Mar 2, 2022 18:00
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Hey, when a company has interviewed you and interviewed you and they do not extend an offer, are they searching their heart to see whether their job description led you astray to apply?
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Mar 2, 2022 18:09
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Magnetic North posted:I'm still wondering if I somehow, somewhere in the process, I gave them the idea that what they talked about might be acceptable, and that makes me the rear end in a top hat here. Maybe I did, maybe I didn't, I don't think I did, I'm trying to never say a number, but it's kind of outrageous how badly the lost vacation time really hurt their offer in the end, which makes me think that this wasn't avoidable since I couldn't do the math until I saw the real number. I begin to perceive why the recruiter thinks insulting you and guilt tripping you is the optimal way to get what he wants
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Mar 2, 2022 18:11
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Magnetic North posted:I'm still wondering if I somehow, somewhere in the process, I gave them the idea that what they talked about might be acceptable, and that makes me the rear end in a top hat here. Maybe I did, maybe I didn't, I don't think I did, I'm trying to never say a number, but it's kind of outrageous how badly the lost vacation time really hurt their offer in the end, which makes me think that this wasn't avoidable since I couldn't do the math until I saw the real number. They know their budget, they know their environment, they knew their needs. They are literally paying their people money for this time while they're not paying you. It's their job to present you with good information and ask you good questions to ascertain for them whether it's a good fit, and so that you can make a good decision. They failed. Their loss. Don't worry about it.
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Mar 2, 2022 18:18
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Magnetic North posted:If we assume for a second that I screwed up and lead them astray somehow, how do we avoid this? When they talk salary, just always say "I'll be happy to review that when an offer is made?" and leave it at that? There are plenty of companies/recruiters that are straight up ignorant about what is competitive compensation right now. The market is moving fast and most teams only analyze this stuff yearly or quarterly at best. But that's not your problem. You are aware of your market value, they are not. If they can't compete, it's just facts, nothing personal. The only other option is that they are aware of your market value and are trying to get a steal. And it's probably not limited to you. They know they can take advantage of people and they will do that if it can save them millions of dollars in the long run. That's not your problem, if you're aware of your market value. If you're really truly, at the top of your market value, it can definitely save time to just anchor high early in a negotiation. But you should know what the company typically pays. You don't want to anchor high if you know the company pays well. For me, I anchored high if I hadn't heard of the company, to save myself from wasting time. If I had heard of the company, I pushed the compensation talk off until they named a number. Eric the Mauve posted:I begin to perceive why the recruiter thinks insulting you and guilt tripping you is the optimal way to get what he wants Also this.
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Mar 2, 2022 18:21
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That's why I'm posting in this thread, in order to get maximally insulted so maybe these neurotic tendencies change. That sounds sarcastic, but I do mean it. These things feel rational in the moment but clearly do not hold up to scrutiny. I like the comparison of how my time has to be free but theirs they paid for. That thought is making me sufficiently angry.
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Mar 2, 2022 18:25
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Magnetic North posted:That's why I'm posting in this thread, in order to get maximally insulted so maybe these neurotic tendencies change. That sounds sarcastic, but I do mean it. These things feel rational in the moment but clearly do not hold up to scrutiny. It's totally fine to have the neurotic tendencies, we all think like that in what are very high stakes negotiations, as long as you don't communicate that to the other side of the table. This is why I try to use the minimal amount of communication necessary to express my needs, without justification. It's not about what's fair, right, or even necessary. It's about what will make me happy to sign away my time! But of course in the back of my mind I'm still thinking I made a mistake, I asked for too much or too little. It's just how our brains work. Don't try to beat it out of yourself.
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Mar 2, 2022 18:33
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Magnetic North posted:The recruiter is now complaining that I'm asking way too much and wasted everyone's time. Is it possible he doesn't understand negotiation? Or is this a ploy to get me to accept less? Magnetic North posted:That's why I'm posting in this thread, in order to get maximally insulted so maybe these neurotic tendencies change. That sounds sarcastic, but I do mean it. These things feel rational in the moment but clearly do not hold up to scrutiny.  reply to this recruiter is:"Future offers are contingent on an additional signing bonus equivalent to 20% of your commission. I'm happy to work with people and organizations who understand the current state of the market." You have all the power here.
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Mar 2, 2022 18:37
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leper khan posted:
I love this idea
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Mar 2, 2022 18:41
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Ok so trying to adjust past the dunking phase of this. You said it was 18% without the bonus, 30% with the bonus? Are you considering your current bonus as base or not? Maybe if you share numbers it'll be more clear if their offer is a good one or not. Them not negotiating isn't a bad thing, but since I am not sure of your numbers I have no idea if their offer is market rate or not. When you asked about how much PTO people take, did they tell you 2 weeks or are you just assuming that? Again, UPTO can be low PTO, or it can be normal. People posting in this thread have a wide range of experiences. Don't worry about what the recruiter is saying.
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Mar 2, 2022 19:28
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Magnetic North posted:That's why I'm posting in this thread, in order to get maximally insulted so maybe these neurotic tendencies change. That sounds sarcastic, but I do mean it. These things feel rational in the moment but clearly do not hold up to scrutiny. getting mad about any of this is an equally bad idea might as well get mad about the weather or the fact that it gets dark early in the winter or that the jetstream goes west to east
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Mar 2, 2022 19:32
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Lockback posted:Ok so trying to adjust past the dunking phase of this. I don't really want to share specific money numbers with the internet which is why I only spoke in percents. The 2 weeks PTO was based on a higher up saying that is what the allotment was before the policy change, so it seemed like a pretty reasonable estimate. Yeah, it could have been a lie, but I don't feel like it was; it'd be easy to disprove if any older employee spills the beans and lie would probably be less stingy than 2 weeks. Also, the advice from this thread was to kick it back with +X percent, and I saw no mention of it mattering whether the offer was a market rate or not. It sounded like it was just part of the game, and if they aren't prepared to respond, gently caress em. Is that not correct?
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Mar 2, 2022 19:55
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nobody can figure out whether anything is market rate unless you say dollars because human beings are paid in dollars. this is the money forum, it's important to post numbers. and you are unlikely to be a successful negotiator if you are generally uncomfortable with discussing comp.
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Mar 2, 2022 20:05
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:nobody can figure out whether anything is market rate unless you say dollars because human beings are paid in dollars. this is the money forum, it's important to post numbers. and you are unlikely to be a successful negotiator if you are generally uncomfortable with discussing comp. There's a difference between discussing it with some HR drone who will find out anyway and the internet. Hence, why I'm not asking "Am I adequately compensated" but rather "How do I negotiate".
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Mar 2, 2022 20:08
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Sure, but you kicked back and they shot it down. But that doesn't matter. If they offered 120 and were firm why is that worse than if they offered 100 and negotiated to 118? It doesn't matter how much you moved them, the only thing that matters is the number at the end. You're mostly playing yourself if you require them to go up 20% if you're not at all considering what their offer is. For example: I don't negotiate with my new (junior)hires much. I usually offer a good wage that is market rate and instead of having people range 30% based on their negotiating people at the same level are much closer clustered together. Now that doesn't apply directly to more experienced, but if they gave you their best offer it'd be stupid not to consider it just because they didn't start lower in the first place. So that's why I'm wondering on bonus. You're right not to consider bonuses the same as base, but it's also probably not right to consider it 0 (I'd rather have a job thats 100k+20% bonus than 105k and no bonus). So I was wondering if you were pulling out the bonus on your current base, or do you not get a bonus or what? Maybe tell us what the increase is on base amount and what would the increase be on bonus?
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Mar 2, 2022 20:09
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Magnetic North posted:There's a difference between discussing it with some HR drone who will find out anyway and the internet. Hence, why I'm not asking "Am I adequately compensated" but rather "How do I negotiate". the former is helpful in determining how to achieve the latter
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Mar 2, 2022 20:12
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nobody in this thread cares about your comp numbers beyond them being more helpful context than percentages. we've seen everything from 50k to 500k there's no personal judgement or jealousy here. pay transparency is good. that discussing pay has become a taboo only benefits employers trying to pay you less.
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Mar 2, 2022 20:19
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Magnetic North posted:I don't really want to share specific money numbers with the internet which is why I only spoke in percents. No one cares and it's no big deal. People have to get over the stigma about talking about salaries. There's people in this thread making 50K a year, and some probably north of 500K a year and everywhere in between. I made 92K a year base when I left my last job for a 27% raise, and a new base of 116Kish. See, no one cares. I sure wish I would have negotiated a bit though, turns out I was making the 9th percentile for my role (range was 108 to 192). Kinda kicking myself in the rear end for that one, but I was in a toxic situation and wanted out and 116K a year is more money than I ever thought I'd make in a year ever.
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Mar 2, 2022 20:19
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Magnetic North posted:The recruiter is now complaining that I'm asking way too much and wasted everyone's time. Is it possible he doesn't understand negotiation? Or is this a ploy to get me to accept less? About 5 years ago I had an interview where, when I made my counteroffer, the recruiter straight up told me "you must be smoking crack" I forwarded him the offer letter I got a month later for my ask + $5k
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Mar 2, 2022 20:23
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Basically, as per my above You seem to want advice on if this is a good deal and how you got there isn't really important. So thats why if you have numbers, great. If not, break it down better for us (current base, bonus, 401k vs new in terms of %). That will help a little, but ultimately this is your call, not anyone on here's.
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Mar 2, 2022 20:25
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I'd probably move on out of spite because of the recruiter but it's probably a good idea to at least examine the offer and figure out if it was a good one. I recall OP came in very anxious about finding a new job because this was the peak of the market for software engineering and if they did not get a new job in this market they would never be able to find as highly compensated a job again. It's tough to do well when you have that mindset. And it doesn't make sense really at all - demand for that type of stuff is increasing, not decreasing, and there are still far more jobs than bodies.
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Mar 2, 2022 20:32
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:or that the jetstream goes west to east Psh, typical. Fuckin jet stream.
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Mar 2, 2022 20:34
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n/m
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Mar 2, 2022 20:37
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You're right that I'm done negotiating. I haven't responded to the second salty response. I can imagine a dozen different more professional ways he could have responded, even if I'm completely off my rocker. So there isn't much reason to elaborate any further on this particular job unless he comes back with something different. It seems like the glib thread slogans of "Never say a number" and "Always Negotiate" are not so simple. Which makes sense, obviously, we all understand negotiation is complicated. This experience has given me a better idea of what I actually want out of this job search, and that PTO is going to be an important consideration on top of 401k which I was already considering.
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Mar 2, 2022 20:43
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Magnetic North posted:It seems like the glib thread slogans of "Never say a number" and "Always Negotiate" are not so simple. Which makes sense, obviously, we all understand negotiation is complicated. Yeah ultimately you are dealing with people, who have emotions and unique and independent thoughts, so you can't just robotically follow these rules to the death. There's a lot of nuance to negotiating and the best way to get better at it is to practice, as you're finding out.
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Mar 2, 2022 20:51
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sim posted:Yeah ultimately you are dealing with people, who have emotions and unique and independent thoughts, so you can't just robotically follow these rules to the death. There's a lot of nuance to negotiating and the best way to get better at it is to practice, as you're finding out. 100% no replacement for practice I post this a lot but not in awhile: Top 3 MBA class for me was negotiation. Not for the academic material but because I got to sit across the table from dudes who negotiated with Chicago labor unions and the Taliban. They beat my rear end and it was very eye opening. (The other thing I realized was that this thread sounds a lot like those people; there's tremendous value being just given away here and idk that people always appreciate. )
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Mar 2, 2022 21:30
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Xguard86 posted:(The other thing I realized was that this thread sounds a lot like those people; there's tremendous value being just given away here and idk that people always appreciate. ) That's because it's being given for free. 
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Mar 2, 2022 21:41
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Absurd Alhazred posted:That's because it's being given for free.  ... 12 years ago. 
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Mar 2, 2022 21:45
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Magnetic North posted:This experience has given me a better idea of what I actually want out of this job search, and that PTO is going to be an important consideration on top of 401k which I was already considering.
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Mar 3, 2022 00:16
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it's important to keep in mind that one of the rather likely outcomes of a salary negotiation is that the parties don't actually reach an agreement, which is really a negotiating win for both parties
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Mar 3, 2022 02:23
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One strategy when you get the "well your counter is way over our top of band" is simply asking "well if you did take this number to your boss, who would have to sign off on it?" "well, it would be the CXX person" "ok well do they want project N done? you guys picked a great candidate (me) and he wants more than your models show. can you take my counter offer to the CXX and get them to sign off on it?" "well, maybe, but-" "ok so let's do that, float the offer past them, see what they say and let's review then?" "yeah but it'll probably take 2-3 days" "i'm gainfully employed, happy to wait and see what they say" "...ok?" In both cases the VP or CXX approved my out of band. I later heard from my boss that the VP laughed when HR told them the band for my position and he pulled it up on levels.fyi, then immediately approved my new pay TL;DR talked the recuiter into going over their own head and getting me my money skipdogg posted:No one cares and it's no big deal. People have to get over the stigma about talking about salaries. There's people in this thread making 50K a year, and some probably north of 500K a year and everywhere in between. 
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Mar 3, 2022 04:17
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