|
ninjewtsu posted:But have you considered that if mika was an adult who couldn't read him sitting in a makeshift classroom learning on a leapfrog would be a slightly more awkward scene that might need minor changes Wouldn't need to change a drat thing. If anything, it would have more impact because "a grown-rear end man is needing to learn letters for the first time because he spent his entire childhood living on the street or digging trenches."
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 19:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 22:27 |
|
|
ninjewtsu posted:You could probably do it just fine with anyone younger than the wrinkly old dudes holding political power. I bet you could make the same theme work for a 35 year old protagonist if you really wanted to. Actively getting screwed over by the older generation foisting problems onto you doesn't stop until you are the generation in power, and that absolutely does not occur at the precipice of adulthood You could debatably do it with a wrinkly old dude who doesn't hold power, because they're getting screwed just as hard as anyone younger in a lot of cases. They won't be getting screwed for as long in the future, but they've also probably been getting screwed for way longer in the past to balance it out. Someone who saw several generations fail, and is now seeing their own generation fail. Who has seen people old and young, rich and poor, male and female etc. screw up and get eaten up and spit out by a system that is bigger than any one person or their ideals. What kind of change can you enact when the machine of politics and society is set up to resist any change, and to corrupt, destroy or ignore those who try to make a difference on any kind of macro level?
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 20:14
|
|
|
yeah see that's kind of a sick story concept before i even start imagining grandpa sending out his funnels
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 20:17
|
|
|
tsob posted:You could debatably do it with a wrinkly old dude who doesn't hold power, because they're getting screwed just as hard as anyone younger in a lot of cases. They won't be getting screwed for as long in the future, but they've also probably been getting screwed for way longer in the past to balance it out. Someone who saw several generations fail, and is now seeing their own generation fail. Who has seen people old and young, rich and poor, male and female etc. screw up and get eaten up and spit out by a system that is bigger than any one person or their ideals. What kind of change can you enact when the machine of politics and society is set up to resist any change, and to corrupt, destroy or ignore those who try to make a difference on any kind of macro level? I unironically want this anime. Please give me a mecha show about the ennui felt by people who have been trying to fight and survive for so long only to see their efforts brushed aside every time and how they find the will to keep fighting in the face of that.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 21:08
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/rallymoon246/status/1489310097411121154?s=20&t=1X65uM4KXsHy-BnkpE1w8Q I'm sorry, I had to post it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 21:18
|
|
|
Warmachine posted:I unironically want this anime. Please give me a mecha show about the ennui felt by people who have been trying to fight and survive for so long only to see their efforts brushed aside every time and how they find the will to keep fighting in the face of that. This is basically that concept writ large: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyTam1KP6BI
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 21:21
|
|
|
I, a 31 year old man, could not possibly be one of the adults who perpetuates a broken system. Adulting is simply too difficult for me.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 21:48
|
|
|
Gripweed posted:I, a 31 year old man, could not possibly be one of the adults who perpetuates a broken system. Adulting is simply too difficult for me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBg99mH8pyA
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 22:53
|
|
|
tsob posted:How is the plot of a manga an indication of anime continuity? Does Miharu Zabi exist because she's noted as being the youngest Zabi in the setting notes? It's a manga set in the anime continuity. Bandai's "canon policy" (such as it is) is basically that manga and games can count as long as they don't interfere with how the main shows work, allowing for the right to ignore them or include them (and other shows, should the whim take them) in later animated works, but until an anime makes a statement one way or another, it's the "official" position. Miharu being a Zabi, meanwhile, is in discarded setting notes that were contradicted by later works.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 00:42
|
|
|
Banrise's policy, such as it was 20 odd years ago when some producers commented on the thinking of staff in regards to the matter (as opposed to any kind of official declaration by Sunrise themselves) was that only material on film (so just anime, basically) was official/canon. If a manga, novel, game etc happens to line up with that then it just means the creator did a good job researching it, and no more than that. They're still not official/canon. To put it another way; the events of the anime are canon to a manga like The Plot To Assassinate Gihren Zabi, but that doesn't make the manga canon to the anime. It is solely a one way relationship until and unless it gets animated, and even then, it's the animated version that would be canon and not the original work that it was based on. Whether that policy still holds with animated works Banrise appears to be treating as UC AUs like The Origin and Thunderbolt is another thing, especially with animation producers a few years ago saying they intended the Thunderbolt adaptation to be a "parallel" work, but it's still as close to publicly establishing a policy as anyone at Sunrise has ever come, to my knowledge.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 01:21
|
|
|
I think it was last month when in the RPG thread of all places I guess I made a petty bad take about the Gundam protagonists and poo poo. I only bring this up because I've been thinking about rewatching Evangelion and the recent talk of "evil adults" in here had me reflecting on the comparison/contrast I made there between Amuro/Kamille and Shinji. The thing about Shinji is that he is actually surrounded by evil adults so we are under no illusions he's being used and abused. Gunadam has many good adults, most of whom are main characters and close to our protagonist. Bright and Emma would be the most relevant here but most of the featured AEUG folks are adult and aren't bad people at all. They care for Kamille and Fa and the rest of humanity. I dunno, I just never felt the slap in the face "this is all wrong" precisely because our kid heroes in Gundam have these support structures of not terrible people.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 08:48
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:I think it was last month when in the RPG thread of all places I guess I made a petty bad take about the Gundam protagonists and poo poo. I'd say Revil is the most awkward fit for the pure "Adults are the enemy" read of the original Gundam. He's the man in charge, and the most obviously "old man" in the cast, complete with grey beard, and he does make use of the White Base, sending them to fight on the frontlines, and making strategies that essentially exploit them. Kai's cynicism of him isn't presented as entirely wrong. At the same time, though, he puts himself on the frontlines, despite being captured once and nearly killed much more than that. He sticks his neck out for the White Base too, with it being noted that, without his efforts, they'd have been left to die at best. He's even implied to be a Newtype, showing hints of being able to move beyond the conflicts and limitations that define the world to reach true empathy. While we aren't meant to think of him as purely righteous, Revil gives the impression of being a 'good adult', someone who acknowledges the failings of the system he represents, and who tries to use its power to aid those who will create something better. It's somewhat similar to Quattro's big speech at the end of Zeta. He has a role, but it's mainly to clear the stage for the ones after him. On a UC as a whole level, his death is a disaster, but within the show itself, it's him fulfilling his role to pass things to Amuro and Bright's generation, the people with a chance to do better. The AEUG, on the other hand... well, they have good intentions, but they're clearly flawed. Unlike Fa, who's basically a good person, and the good-hearted but hot-headed Kamille, the AEUG is shown in a mixed light, taking orders from corporate interests, beating the poo poo out of people for just asking questions, and compromising their ideals for the sake of pragmatism. They might not be an enemy, but they're not a friend, either. And when you continue into ZZ, they become part of arguably the most "Adults are the enemy!" of all Gundam, where people like Beecha are 'heroic' basically just because they're teens, while even the best adults like Bright are shown to be irreparably compromised, attached to a Federation with all its vices intensified (with a few new ones added in the bargain) and all its virtues absent. I'd say one of the most interesting scenes on this line comes from Iron Blooded Orphans. Towards the end, Julieta has started to empathize with Tekkadan, seeing them as her mirror. The difference, in her view, is that they only met "evil adults", while she had Rustal and Galan. Rustal is amused by this, pointing out that he's one of those "evil adults" as well. He's right, of course. He's textbook evil adult, a corrupt figure sending the youth to their deaths for his own ends, nearly sacrificing Julieta to protect the organization he works for. Julieta even acknowledges as much. And yet... she's not all wrong either. Rustal provided her with both tools and guidance that Tekkadan never had. Even the "good" adults around them were never able to play the parental role, protecting them from the worst effects of their own errors and letting them reach a future. Orga was forced to chart his own path, and thus wound up charging into disaster. Rustal was a "good adult" for Julieta (and Gaelio), and a very bad one for Tekkadan. But in both cases, it was only being an adult that let him have that impact, just like it was only maintaining the purity of youth that drove McGillis and Iok to their own particular disasters. Of course, for a different spin entirely, I think I saw a Tomino interview once (although I can't find it now, so it may not have been legit) where he talked about the Beatles, and how they only existed, they only could exist, due to adult opposition, that a more accommodating older generation wouldn't allow something like that to be created. In that light, adults are the enemy, and always need to be the enemy, but that doesn't necessarily make them bad. In the best case, adults are the loyal opposition, or even the sports anime rival, something that the hero should always fight, but never destroy, because the fight makes both of them better.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 10:00
|
|
|
As a follow up to my previous post, since I was posting from my phone last night and couldn't be arsed trying to find sources and then format them. Here is the interview from around about 2000 with some producers from Sunrise talking about how they perceive official/canon.Sunrise Staff posted:柴原:に“オフィシャル”の定義はどうなっているのでしょうか。 Film in this case referring to the physical medium i.e. camera film, since most anime was still produced traditionally at the time, and digital was still only just around the corner. The Horiguchi in question there being Sunrise producer Horiguchi Shigeru, who worked as a producer at Sunrise on Turn A, SEED Destiny, 0080, and Gundam Evolve at the very least. There were a few other Sunrise staff members at that interview though, including another producer and some writers; all of whom basically agreed with that view Here is a website laying out the relevant part in better English, presumably by someone with a far better understanding of Japanese than I have. You also have interviews like this, where a producer for the Gundam Thunderbolt anime talks about how it was produced with the idea it could be "parallel" in mind, since that was how the original manga was written and they wanted to preserve that intention as much as possible. They knew Sunrise might want to make it canon, so they never definitively made it non-canon, but they made it as ambiguous as possible so it could fit in either camp, depending on what Sunrise decide down the line. Which, given that the promotional material for UC Gundam Next 0100 and Gundam Hathaway, including the official site for Hathaway, either don't include Gundam: The Origin or Gundam Thunderbolt in the timeline of UC, or only includes them in separate sections from the main timeline, it would appear that Sunrise view them as alt UC stuff; at least for now. tsob fucked around with this message at 09:18 on Mar 5, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 10:51
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:I think it was last month when in the RPG thread of all places I guess I made a petty bad take about the Gundam protagonists and poo poo. To phrase this in a way I hope is clear and not indented to be offensive to you this is the same argument style as "not all men." Those characters stand out because they are exceptions but even then they are flawed. Also Bright was like 19 in original Gundam.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 16:58
|
|
|
Exceptions that prove the rule. And then all of them save Bright tend to die. Bright only survives because his punishment is not complete, as befitting a man who could not ride the rainbow.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 16:59
|
|
|
Arc Hammer posted:Exceptions that prove the rule. And then all of them save Bright tend to die. Bright only survives because his punishment is not complete, as befitting a man who could not ride the rainbow. Plus since they appear to be making Hathaway's Flash canon the dude even gets (falsely) accused of murdering his own son by the corrupt higher ups as a political ploy. Bright genuinely espouses his belief in younger generations and his loyalty to supporting them, even if he himself is aware he is part of the probelm. It is a flaw he recognizes and so he tries to help where he can.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 17:12
|
|
|
It seemed clear to me that 'Adults are the enemy' not because a switch flips in your brain at age 25 that makes you want to figure out how to use the ancient weapon to advance your political power, but because you are inevitably drawn into seeing people as objects, compromising on your dreams, losing hope, and so on as you get older. The process is not universal but is certainly common. Even in a world of peace and relative prosperity you would have conflict between the old guard and the new guard, which is also what Tomino seems to be getting out with the Beatles thing. But it would be one thing to have legal arguments over the Zabi media conglomerates' new space-manufactured merchandise sales, the 'Colony Drop'.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 17:15
|
|
|
I'm in disbelief people are this confused about the gently caress adults sentiment in Tominos work.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 17:18
|
|
|
Nessus posted:It seemed clear to me that 'Adults are the enemy' not because a switch flips in your brain at age 25 that makes you want to figure out how to use the ancient weapon to advance your political power, but because you are inevitably drawn into seeing people as objects, compromising on your dreams, losing hope, and so on as you get older. The process is not universal but is certainly common. gently caress I want *that* series now
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 17:18
|
|
|
"Hey babe wake up, Colony dropped."
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 17:19
|
|
|
Nessus posted:It seemed clear to me that 'Adults are the enemy' not because a switch flips in your brain at age 25 that makes you want to figure out how to use the ancient weapon to advance your political power, but because you are inevitably drawn into seeing people as objects, compromising on your dreams, losing hope, and so on as you get older. The process is not universal but is certainly common. This is colored by my politics, but I see this as misidentifying a class issue as an age issue. The reason people are drawn to that perspective is that the elites tend to outlive the working class. Since Gundam deals primarily in warfare, this translates to politicians and military brass outliving the enlisted soldiers, civilians, and generally "people who do the dying." I think the diner owner in Unicorn is the best example of this, because he's an old gently caress Federation veteran who absolutely isn't in the 'adults are the enemy' class, but has zero political power to affect change because he's some dude with a diner in the middle of nowhere. He's the kind of person who would probably make great decisions and support policies that actively help the people of the UC, but he'll never get within a sneeze of the levers of power. Meanwhile, the Marcenus family has been entrenched for nearly a century, and Riddhe was merrily jaunting his way down that same path until Merida got fridged. And don't get me wrong, there's lots of bitter old shits who survived the wars and would happily perpetuate the status quo. Working class folks can be as vicious as any elite. But survivor bias absolutely effects what is politically feasible, and so long as the voices who speak out against corruption and oppression and constant warfare keep getting shoved into the meatgrinder of those wars, the youth of today will become the enemy of tomorrow simply by attrition.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 17:57
|
|
|
It tracks because Tomino does expand beyond the *just* the dangers of adults to encapsulate a broader class struggle as his works continue. Hathaway's Flash is heavily influenced by class struggle, as is Turn A. His late era UC work has antagonists fully embracing feudal monarchies just in case the class struggle wasn't obvious enough. And then IBO goes for full on social revolution against the establishment.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 18:04
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:gently caress I want *that* series now I've come to realize that I want someone to somehow make a series that just goes over the dry drama stuff that must be happening in the background of stories that never talk about that stuff. Let me see the media responses to Operation British, or the war tribunal that logically follows the end of a Fire Emblem game.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2022 08:52
|
|
|
Cleretic posted:I've come to realize that I want someone to somehow make a series that just goes over the dry drama stuff that must be happening in the background of stories that never talk about that stuff. Let me see the media responses to Operation British, or the war tribunal that logically follows the end of a Fire Emblem game. You can see some of that in the manga. Like there's scenes in "The Plot to Assassinate Gihren" that are all about the Zeonic parliamentary system.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2022 09:03
|
|
|
There's that new Gundam Pulitzer manga about a journalist researching Amuro Ray's life after the Axis Shock, that could have good stuff about how the civilian world views the war
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2022 14:56
|
|
|
Not just any journalist; it's a grown up Kikka.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2022 15:27
|
|
|
more important manga news, Monsha gets a girlfriend and a Gelgoog https://twitter.com/zeonicscans/status/1499908024537731074?s=20&t=UaOp2RqN3zuEb60QUXS45w
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2022 15:41
|
|
|
0083 Rebellion is loving awesome. Such a good manga.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2022 16:35
|
|
|
I still cannot believe how 0083 Rebellion took one of the most vile and terrible characters in the franchise, went "hm nah him being that awful is completely pointless and adds basically nothing", and went in completely its own direction with Monsha.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2022 18:09
|
|
|
finally got around to watching narrative what a baffling series of creative decisions by sunrise
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2022 00:33
|
|
|
Stairmaster posted:finally got around to watching narrative what a baffling series of creative decisions by sunrise Yeah, it's not surprising that it's bad, there's plenty of bad Gundam. But the way it chops up the story, who it choses to focus on, the way any detail that would make us care about Jona is saved for the last act... it's just so odd. It's a film with no ambition to what story it's telling getting all the wrong kinds of ambitious in regards to how that story is told. (Also, it's in SRW 30, and man. That game was just such a disappointment.)
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2022 00:59
|
|
|
When it finally settles on the story being about the frustration of the sloppy seconds and people atoning for their sins it does get better. Unfortunately it takes 80 minutes to get there.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2022 01:27
|
|
|
After an amount of hindsight I finally decided what movie Narrative reminds me of: The Amazing Spider-Man 2. Just like that film, it feels to me sometimes like Narrative exists mostly for the purposes of continuity bookkeeping. It feels like the whole movie was predicated on the idea that there was some sequence of plot mechanisms that the monitors of the broader planners of the Universal Century felt needed to establish, and if a movie happened along the way that was nice. I have the strong sense that Narrative's "legacy" will be what Mineva and Banagher are doing in their respective faction of Zeon and that the overall events of Narrative really are only here to justify their actions in a future Unicorn movie. Maybe Jona will show up as a glorified cameo, but even in his own Narrative the movie seems uninterested in making the story about him. An approach like that would certainly explain why the miracle children plot line was so weirdly slapped together; if we assume that the actual "important" points are all the times Mineva and Banagher do a thing or speechify about how maybe Newtype magic is dangerous, and the broad concept of people reacting to Newtype magic then we have a plausible explanation for the 72 disjointed repeating flashbacks or the incredible failure to tell Jona's story in a remotely compelling flashback. They just didn't care. Of course, on the extreme off-chance I'm even in the same solar system as accurate I point out that The Amazing Spider-Man 2 was shoved out the door to chase a trend and exists in large part because of legal reasons vis-à-vis continued access to a licensed character by movie studio. As far as I'm aware, Bandai and its subsidiaries do not currently HAVE to make a Gundam movie every couple of years or permanently lose access to the ability to make Gundam movies and also can just go ahead and make Gundam movies about whatever the hell they want without having to take into account prior media by another group of writers, they are their own original.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2022 01:59
|
|
|
The miracle children plot feels weirdly slapped together because it is weirdly slapped together. Narrative is an awkwardly re-worked adaptation of Phoenix Hunting, a one-off Unicorn spinoff novel, and Phoenix Hunting was originally meant to be happening concurrently with the events of Unicorn rather than as a sequel to it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2022 03:12
|
|
|
Kanos posted:The miracle children plot feels weirdly slapped together because it is weirdly slapped together. Narrative is an awkwardly re-worked adaptation of Phoenix Hunting, a one-off Unicorn spinoff novel, and Phoenix Hunting was originally meant to be happening concurrently with the events of Unicorn rather than as a sequel to it. And this is honestly what makes my off-the-cuff, probably wrong comparison feel like there's anything to it at all. It was a questionable adaptation that was adapting material for reasons that really aren't apparent in the body of the text. Hopefully the original Phoenix Hunting made more sense, but I honestly have never heard anything about what the original novel is like so I'm working from the baseline of "it existed" and "they made Narrative" and I just… There is just nothing COMPELLING about Narrative as they created it. And I just don't get why you would choose to make something that feels so pointless except out of some kind of obligation.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2022 03:25
|
|
|
You're getting close to calling amazing Spiderman 2 bad, and that's not okay that movie is a solid B+. Better than any of Holland's for sure.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2022 03:31
|
|
|
Obviously not the place for this, but anyone besmirching the name of Spiderman: Homecoming is a gosh darn flipping fool. Pardon my language. Gundam Narrative, on the other hand, was extremely impressive. Impressive in that after the sickly wet fart Unicorn ended on, I didn't think it could get worse. Narrative proved me wrong.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2022 03:35
|
|
|
Gaius Marius posted:You're getting close to calling amazing Spiderman 2 bad, and that's not okay that movie is a solid B+. Better than any of Holland's for sure. It is kinda incredible that the scene where Osborn shows off all the Sinister Six gear wasn't to set up the Sinister Six as the villains for the next Spiderman movie, but to set up a Sinister Six spinoff which would have the Sinister Six doing their own thing before they would cross paths with Spiderman in Amazing Spiderman 4 or 5. That's up there with Universal Picture's Dark Universe Cinematic Universe in terms of cinematic universe hubris. A Gundam comparison would be if Narrative had a scene featuring some guy that at the end of the scene is revealed to be the Byarlant pilot from Torrington Base and the only purpose of that scene is to set up a standalone Byarlant movie that will come out after Unicorn 2.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2022 03:35
|
|
|
Gripweed posted:a standalone Byarlant movie I mean. I’d watch it. I think the weirdest part of Narrative is the bit where the Neo Zeong Two “chooses” the Gundam over Zoltan. Did that accomplish or lead to anything at all?
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2022 03:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 22:27 |
|
|
ManSedan posted:I think the weirdest part of Narrative is the bit where the Neo Zeong Two “chooses” the Gundam over Zoltan. Did that accomplish or lead to anything at all? If you choose to be incredibly generous that scene is meant to set up Jona as the anti-Banagher character that it is very very very very eventually revealed he is. But again, it takes until the back half of the final battle to properly get across the full scope of what Jona's whole deal actually is because Narrative is put together back to front and repeatedly makes very stupid decisions without structures itself and arranges its story.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2022 04:31
|
|