|
I didn't want to talk numbers in this thread because I work in a fairly small industry and I don't want anything I post here to come back to me in the future. I know no one in this thread cares what I make, but we all live lives outside the Something Awful dot com forums. I was also able to get very helpful feedback with the vague information I gave, so thank you everyone for that. Salami Surgeon fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Mar 3, 2022 |
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 04:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 21:10 |
|
|
Magnetic North posted:You're right that I'm done negotiating. I haven't responded to the second salty response. I can imagine a dozen different more professional ways he could have responded, even if I'm completely off my rocker. So there isn't much reason to elaborate any further on this particular job unless he comes back with something different. "Always negotiate" is simple and nearly 100% true advice. "Never say a number" is a lot more complex. I accidentally turned on linkedin open for offers setting or something, so I was getting recruiter contacts regularly. I just started asking "What's the budgeted salary?" or some variation of that. Their responses were pretty interesting. Some came back with a number. Others responded by asking what my expectations were, which sort of felt like it made my budget question blow up in my face because if I were really interested I wouldn't have wanted to "say a number". Since I wasn't really interested in these I took the opportunity, for a few of them, to throw out a very largish number (not obscene but too much for some). They all responded with "that's above our maximum". So if I were really interested that would have weeded out a lot of positions that wouldn't be worth going after, but it could potentially have anchored me low against a position that actually did have a lot larger budget.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 03:46
|
|
|
You're not really negotiating there, you're just doing market research.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 13:19
|
|
|
Arquinsiel posted:You're not really negotiating there, you're just doing market research. Knowing the market and being informed to reduce the information gap is a really important part of negotiating.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 14:47
|
|
|
Lockback posted:Knowing the market and being informed to reduce the information gap is a really important part of negotiating. For sure, but they're right that it's not the same thing as actually negotiating.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 16:05
|
|
|
Warning: intense navel gazing ahead: Has anyone ever read anything about an inflation clause in a contract? I'm wondering, if you accepted a job last November at $100,000 and then inflation jumped from 4% and, hypothetically, inflation jumps to a sustained average of 10%, you will lose, in theory, 10% of your buying power*. Now you'll get an annual raise, most places commit to ~3% but that's probably not going to cut it this year Trying to imagine if I were an engineer right now looking to change jobs. If you take a job in November 2021, inflation 4%, and then your economic twin takes the same job in October 2022, would they be able to negotiate a higher base pay? Will engineering jobs continue to spike in pay, with inflation? I'm not sure how you would structure a clause like that. I switched jobs last summer for what I thought was a pretty substantial raise over my last job, but if we saw, say, 9% inflation for two years my buying power* would be eroded to ~just above where I was at my last job in 2021. Some kind of inflation clause would in theory trigger a minimum raise monthly if inflation stays above, say, 7%, or something, I dunno *inflation & buying power is counted with/without fuel and other things, and inflation hits different regions at different amounts, talking very high level here
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 17:29
|
|
|
yeah in Brazil during the hyperinflation period your pay was indexed to inflation, there was a neat thread from a dude in A/T about it. but in real life in America, no
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 17:34
|
|
|
but in real life in America, no(t yet)?
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 17:37
|
|
|
Yes, in collectively bargained contracts. Individuals? No. A big part of it is what do you use as an index? You'd probably need to use CPI, but then you'd also get pay cuts when that drops, which it can. That is probably not ideal for the average person. In CBAs there is usually a buffer where they use moving averages over a series of years. That works well when you're looking at a workforce as a whole that has 30 years of history, makes less sense when you're talking about an individual who will probably only work somewhere for 3-5 years. Tying compensation to things like company performance and growth deals with this by, in theory, seeing greater stock prices or profit shares that track with inflation.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 17:44
|
|
|
yeah like, i don't have an employment contract that specifies pay and poo poo like that with my employer, because this is 
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 18:18
|
|
|
I think I've heard of some companies (was it this thread? not sure) that were giving inflation adjustments along with the standard merit increase this year. I figure the companies that are doing so are interested in retaining talent. The ones that aren't are gambling that they won't have unreal amounts of attrition in an inflationary environment.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 19:32
|
|
|
Looking forward to my 3% raise this summer. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 19:51
|
|
|
Zarin posted:I think I've heard of some companies (was it this thread? not sure) that were giving inflation adjustments along with the standard merit increase this year.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 19:57
|
|
|
I'm hoping to get some advice on negotiating salary for a new position in the same company. Two weeks ago, my job had an in-person conference. Two of the speakers mentioned a topic I was curious about, and I asked about it at their breakout/networking session. One guy said "Oh, you should absolutely ask the other guy about that, he's working on that topic." The other guy listens to my question, talks about his project, then starts asking about what I do. Then he grabs a chair, we sit down, and he starts really talking about what he's doing. He asks what I do as an analyst, then talks about how he's got an analyst position or two approved to support his project, and they'll be internally posted shortly. We exchanged emails, and he just sent a follow-up today saying "HR still hasn't posted the new job, as I understand it it'll be on par with your current level, I'll keep you in the loop." The work he described was interesting, and I think I'm really well suited for it. Any advice on how to make sure I come away with a solid pay raise in addition to more interesting work when my current company knows what they're paying me? Some random points are: - I'll be able to see the pay range for this (and any other) posted position - Been here for 4 years. I'll find out my next raise in a month, but my salary went from $80K to $84K. Working in health care during a pandemic meant no raises in 2020, buuut still. - Getting a Masters in Data Science to be completed next May. - My current manager, who just got promoted, was very supportive when I mentioned I was casually looking for a new job during my annual review last month. - New position is under a different branch of the company, which I don't have a lot of connections with. - Company benefits are really good - 25 days of PTO, 50% 401K match up to 10% of my salary, said "everyone can stop working at 1 PM today for Employee Appreciation Day." Those wouldn't change with a different position, but would make finding another company tougher. Any advice on how I should start laying some foundation to get a better job and salary?
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 20:09
|
|
|
If you are moving from one role to another that has the same pay band typically there is no raise, this is usually an HR thing to avoid people jumping around the same levels to goose their salary. If it's not in the same pay band, you should get a raise but every time this has happened to me or to my people there was no negotiation, just a "Here's your new offer". It was up to the grace and goodwill of the managers. Your experience may be different. If its not different, my advice would be: 1. Try to get into this new role at a higher level than your current. Talk to the manager now. If the role isn't out yet you might be able to get it at a senior level. 2. I'd straight up tell that manager you'd be willing to move but are looking for a salary jump of (whatever). They may be able to grease the skids. 3. If you trust your manager, talk to them about it. If one of my people came to me with this I could do a bunch to get them a raise. If you don't trust your manager they might put up roadblocks to not lose you, so this one is your call. 4. Someone with experience and a MS in Data Science should probably make a lot more than 90k really easily even with those benefits (which, btw, are good but not necessarily amazing). Healthcare is not a great industry. Zarin posted:I think I've heard of some companies (was it this thread? not sure) that were giving inflation adjustments along with the standard merit increase this year. We did that, but it wasn't like automatic in a contract or anything.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 20:50
|
|
|
Arquinsiel posted:I may have mentioned it. My company pro-actively got out ahead of the panic when the news broke about increasing UK taxes and said that they were going to make sure that the business could handle it and that we weren't worse off. It wasn't a contractual thing at all though. Lockback posted:We did that, but it wasn't like automatic in a contract or anything. Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to suggest it was! I was basically saying that while I don't think there are too many people in the US with that sort of contractual setup, some companies are doing it voluntarily now to avoid a massive amount of turnover in the near future. Amusingly, my company has started tacking inflation adjustments on to customer orders, so I'm supremely interested to see if they do the same thing for employee pay  I'm guessing if they haven't mentioned it yet already, they aren't planning on it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 20:58
|
|
|
Lockback posted:If you are moving from one role to another that has the same pay band typically there is no raise, this is usually an HR thing to avoid people jumping around the same levels to goose their salary. A different time (also a promotion) I was able to negotiate the start date to be 12/31 instead of early the next year. That way my bonus for the following year would be calculated using the slightly higher target percentage. Had the promo been effective 1/1, my base bonus would have been 5% lower.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 21:05
|
|
|
spf3million posted:A different time (also a promotion) I was able to negotiate the start date to be 12/31 instead of early the next year. That way my bonus for the following year would be calculated using the slightly higher target percentage. Had the promo been effective 1/1, my base bonus would have been 5% lower. This is a good point. You may be able to negotiate other things, like remote work and such, even if you can't make them move on salary.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 21:08
|
|
|
Zarin posted:I think I've heard of some companies (was it this thread? not sure) that were giving inflation adjustments along with the standard merit increase this year. I got an inflation/market based adjustment this year, separately, which was highly unusual.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2022 21:31
|
|
|
Coco13 posted:- Getting a Masters in Data Science to be completed next May. I’ve still got half an MBA hanging out there that I’m not sure whether to bother finishing.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2022 02:09
|
|
|
In my program (Boulder Colorado MS in Data Science), they allow you to 'earn' your enrollment by completing fundamental statistics or computer science courses, and they were pretty intense. Statistics required an understanding of advanced calculus and summations/series, and was pretty challenging for me. The computer science courses were easier for me personally, but covered some pretty complex algorithms and problems like dynamic programming and searching trees. I haven't gotten into the more advanced stuff yet.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2022 02:23
|
|
|
Lockback posted:If you are moving from one role to another that has the same pay band typically there is no raise, this is usually an HR thing to avoid people jumping around the same levels to goose their salary. The new gig might be the same job classification (roughly meaning the scope of responsibilities would be the same) but the pay range might be different. I think the next step is bringing this up to my current manager and seeing what kind of strings she can pull. Maybe it's just acting as a great reference, but if in a few weeks I find out I got another 3% increase it'll be a great way of saying "So how does this company handle raises when job switching internally?" REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:Unrelated to the thread, but how tough is the coursework on this? I keep seeing jobs asking for it, but a bit concerned it’ll be math and/or programming heavy. Here's my program. I'm probably a bad person to ask, as I graduated with a math degree and have done some form of programming since I was like 14. There's the intro and capstone, 4 courses that are more writing and communication, and the other 6 being programming-focused. Some of those are working through stats in R. I'd say you should have some background in coding, even if it's just a walkthrough of a Python tutorial and a couple Project Euler problems afterwards. You want to get used to coding a problem, thinking you have the right answer, finding out you don't, and having to figure out where your made a bad assumption. The math has been mostly stats based: standard deviations, normal curves, different distributions. It was challenging enough that you wouldn't want to have to learn that and struggle with coding at the same time.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2022 04:08
|
|
|
Lockback posted:If you are moving from one role to another that has the same pay band typically there is no raise, this is usually an HR thing to avoid people jumping around the same levels to goose their salary. 2nding this as a Good Post. Obviously, if you or a friendly boss can manipulate the situation from a lateral move to a title promotion, you are no longer talking about a lateral move. This is the best way to play this, and is correctly numbered as the number one choice in this post. In my limited experience in getting cash in truly lateral moves, it often comes down to two things - 1. Looking at your current role and your desired role and determining how easy each one of them would be to backfill. If you're moving from an easier role to fill to a more challenging one, you have more room to push for cash. 2. how much your current and/or new boss helps you move the process along
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2022 19:56
|
|
|
Recruiter placed me in an interview last week that went really well. Now at salary negotiation point. Recruiter: This role is offering $100k Me: I need $125k Recruiter: I put you forward at $110k. They can't increase from a $110k base Me: Are there any CPI or band increases down the track? Recruiter: I'll check, in the meantime the manager has asked if you'd consider $100k Wtf. I went back and said yeah I'd consider $100k but only for a 4 day week. Wonder if they'll take the bait. I really like this organisation and the role, and the location is perfect, but lowballing leaves such a bad taste in my mouth.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2022 02:52
|
|
|
I wish I could string rear end in a top hat recruiters along and gently caress with them, but my time is more valuable than theirs so it's a losing proposition from the get-go. There's no winning response to them but "gently caress off and don't contact me again unless you have a real offer for me" In that particular situation the interaction ends with "They can't increase from a $110k base" -> "Sorry to hear that, call me back if they decide to offer a competitive salary, bye."
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2022 03:04
|
|
|
Jumpsuit posted:Recruiter: I put you forward at $110k. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2022 03:04
|
|
|
Jumpsuit posted:Recruiter: This role is offering $100k Ftfy
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2022 03:10
|
|
|
leper khan posted:Ftfy Correct
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2022 03:15
|
|
|
Asking the recruiter if they'll cover the spread personally might be good for a giggle.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2022 03:30
|
|
|
Eric the Mauve posted:I wish I could string rear end in a top hat recruiters along and gently caress with them, but my time is more valuable than theirs so it's a losing proposition from the get-go. There's no winning response to them but "gently caress off and don't contact me again unless you have a real offer for me" 
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2022 04:10
|
|
|
Just talked to a recruiter on the phone yesterday and has something similar: "What are you making now?" (not even 'what do you want', knew that was a bad sign) "Sorry, I'd need to see the whole offer, PTO and 401k to say anything about accepting an offer." "Oh okay just didn't want to waste your time etc etc." "Yeah, well, it's complicated and I can't say much until I see the offer." "Okay, this is (like 20% less than what I'm currently making and outrageously far under market), would that interest you?" "No." Can't imagine why that position is unfilled.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2022 10:03
|
|
|
Xguard86 posted:100% no replacement for practice That class sounds supremely interesting. I'm new to the thread but if you've posted about it before, is there a pointer?
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2022 11:49
|
|
|
nonathlon posted:That class sounds supremely interesting. I'm new to the thread but if you've posted about it before, is there a pointer? When I was LE these types of training classes were often called crisis/hostage negotiation training and were often very good, but I'm honestly not sure how available they are to the general public.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2022 13:50
|
|
|
nonathlon posted:That class sounds supremely interesting. I'm new to the thread but if you've posted about it before, is there a pointer? Rakeris posted:When I was LE these types of training classes were often called crisis/hostage negotiation training and were often very good, but I'm honestly not sure how available they are to the general public. Check out the book "Never Split The Difference"; it's written by a former hostage negotiator for the FBI and they talk a lot about guesting at one of those MBA classes. It seems like the tactics are very similar.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2022 17:26
|
|
|
Magnetic North posted:Just talked to a recruiter on the phone yesterday and has something similar: This is my experience on LinkedIn. I haven't even gotten to the phone call stage with recruiters in like six months, I've seen like 2 opening offers worth scheduling a call in that time, but their business plan was grim
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2022 17:36
|
|
|
yall are in the wrong industries, i guess
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2022 17:42
|
|
|
Yeah we read a few different negotiation books and other sources. Getting to yes, never split the difference were in there. Most of the class was doing different exercises like buying a house or an international business deal. The first few were very simple but they got progressively more complicated and realistic. No money but your grades did come from how good a deal you could make. The best part was getting to work with and against the classmates with serious negotiation experience. If nothing else then just to learn there's sharks out there.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2022 17:42
|
|
|
Ill throw bargaining for advantage on to the pile, I found that to be quite useful.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2022 17:44
|
|
|
Hadlock posted:This is my experience on LinkedIn. I haven't even gotten to the phone call stage with recruiters in like six months, I've seen like 2 opening offers worth scheduling a call in that time, but their business plan was grim I wish that was my experience, but god drat the number of recruiters who want to talk on the phone before sending me a loving job description is making me lose what little mind I have left. Seriously, do the recruiters get ranked by how much time they spend on the phone or something? I cannot imagine wanting to waste one's own time instead of just quietly playing Skifree? So long as we're on the subject, should I be insisting on seeing a salary range at that very early stage of feeling out things? My instincts say that's too early but knowing me and my history in this thread that probably means it's actually appropriate and expected. Seems like it'd be good to know, since I think that in theory I could know if I'd accept a job if I knew the PTO, 401k and salary. Also, if you do get a salary range early, does that change later negotiation? It feels like it would undermine it, since you're essentially accepting the band they say, but at the benefit of not bothering to waste time if it won't work out.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2022 19:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 21:10 |
|
|
Magnetic North posted:I wish that was my experience, but god drat the number of recruiters who want to talk on the phone before sending me a loving job description is making me lose what little mind I have left. Seriously, do the recruiters get ranked by how much time they spend on the phone or something? I cannot imagine wanting to waste one's own time instead of just quietly playing Skifree? If it's remote, and they don't want to provide a range, tell them you're considering moving to Colorado and ask for the range again.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2022 19:40
|
|