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Lol. Everyone else is getting squeamish about wargames while I instead buy Third Winter from Hexasim.quote:This is not to say that AA is the best COIN imo (that distinction goes to ADR, which has the most interesting faction interplay, even with the slight faults that it has). I'm in a mind that honestly the one designer that truly understood COIN and how to implement it well was Brian Train.
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Mar 3, 2022 12:37
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Yeah I meant A Distant Plain
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Mar 3, 2022 12:56
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How long does it take for current conflicts to end up as game designs? I wonder if those wargame magazines in the 80s had contemporary scenarios or still pulled from the deep well of historical or WW 2.
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Mar 3, 2022 14:05
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A Strange Aeon posted:How long does it take for current conflicts to end up as game designs? I wonder if those wargame magazines in the 80s had contemporary scenarios or still pulled from the deep well of historical or WW 2. Most wargame publishers are hesitant to do modern conflicts. Even doing stuff like Labyrinth or A Distant Plain was kind of a grey area for GMT.
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Mar 3, 2022 14:48
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A Strange Aeon posted:How long does it take for current conflicts to end up as game designs? I wonder if those wargame magazines in the 80s had contemporary scenarios or still pulled from the deep well of historical or WW 2. The general level of quality to get a game in a good publisher kinda demands more research than is currently available on happening conflicts. Third World War is based on 80s research which results in some interesting things. For example, in the game as published by GDW, the US had an "F-19 stealth fighter", which, in the modern incarnation has a replacement F-117 piece. There's also some other aspects which are a bit on the iffy side in terms of research, but they did have a method to picking unit strengths and quality. Strength in TWW being mostly a function of the MTOE equipment for a unit.
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Mar 3, 2022 15:11
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A Strange Aeon posted:How long does it take for current conflicts to end up as game designs? I wonder if those wargame magazines in the 80s had contemporary scenarios or still pulled from the deep well of historical or WW 2. There were a LOT of contemporary designs back in the old days. For example, SPI published a game about Vietnam in 1972 called Year of the Rat - in 1972. They weren't 100% staff planning operation accurate, of course, but they were based on basic analysis and reasonable guesses. Avalon Hill didn't produce that many, as they concentrated more on historical events, but SPI in particular published a lot of "it could happen tomorrow" games. When SPI folded and their designers became Victory Games they made a few games in this manner, like Gulf Strike.
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Mar 3, 2022 15:59
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Victory Games' Vietnam is interesting because it made a really deep mathematical model for commitment vs morale and its interaction with what happens in the game, though it has some fatal flaws in its historiography(for example, the Ho Chi Minh trail becomes irrelevant late in the game, where in fact it should be more so as the North relies more on conventional, heavily equipped units). It's a good game, and pretty nice for when it was made, but yeah, it's got a lot of inaccuracies. The mathiness behind it makes sense- the guy who made it went into wall street afterward.
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Mar 3, 2022 16:05
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Oh, absolutely. It's fun to drag out old wargames and see how the assumptions they made have shifted out from under them over time. You could probably write a paper on how WWII in the Pacific games didn't understand how important code breaking and intel work was until the 80's, for example. Or, hell, how completely off the understanding of the GPW/Russian Front was as a result of unquestioningly regurgitating Nazi propaganda.
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Mar 3, 2022 16:12
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Victory Games also published its Central America game about Reagan-era insurgencies and counterinsurgencies in 1987 (while those things were still very much going on) and there was an S&T issue game about Nicaragua in 1988, so there is a long history of wargames being designed and published for conflicts that are still in-progress. (The only thing I remember and Central America was the presence of a counter for an Israeli paratrooper company)
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Mar 3, 2022 17:30
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FMguru posted:Victory Games also published its Central America game about Reagan-era insurgencies and counterinsurgencies in 1987 (while those things were still very much going on) and there was an S&T issue game about Nicaragua in 1988, so there is a long history of wargames being designed and published for conflicts that are still in-progress. It's there to fight the PLO unit that the communist side gets, obviously. Central America is not even a bad game but it has some wild politics. The designer explicitly stated that he designed the game because he believed that revolutionary Nicaragua is a severe threat to USA and must be invaded immediately.
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Mar 3, 2022 20:11
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Obfuscation posted:The designer explicitly stated that he designed the game because he believed that revolutionary Nicaragua is a severe threat to USA and must be invaded immediately. If we don't invade Nicaragua, the SAU will invade us! 
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Mar 3, 2022 20:22
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A check of the components on BGG reveals that Central America wasn't about insurgency/counterinsurgency, but rather armies crossing borders with major foreign interventions - as the presence of the 82nd Airborne, 1st Marine, and 4 B-52 markers shows (along with a Soviet airborne company and 3 T-22 Backfire units): https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2080/central-america/images I wonder if anyone has done (or is planning to do) a COIN game for 1980s Central America? Another 1980s cold war series were the (very well regarded) Fleet games (also by Victory Games). Sixth Fleet, 2nd Fleet, 7th Fleet, etc. Just the thing for a nerdy teenager who has read too many Tom Clancy novels to spend his paper route money on! FMguru fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Mar 3, 2022 |
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Mar 3, 2022 20:34
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FMguru posted:A check of the components on BGG reveals that Central America wasn't about insurgency/counterinsurgency, but rather armies crossing borders with major foreign interventions I mean, yes and no. (I do own an actual copy of the game btw, but I've only ever played some of the smaller scenarios.) Central America doesn't cover the political element of insurgencies like COIN series attempts to, but a major feature of the game is how it models armed insurgency/guerilla troops vs conventional forces. There are several scenarios about the actual historical and at the time contemporary fighting between Nicaraguan army and the US-backed Contras. In game terms, insurgency units have the ability to leave the game board and reappear elsewhere later which makes them hard to pin down with normal units. The game has also bunch of other pretty interesting historical scenarios, like the actual Nicaraguan revolution against the Somoza regime and a scenario about the Football War between Honduras and El Salvador, which I'm pretty sure isn't covered by any other board game. And yes, then there's ton of content for gaming a possible US invasion. The game even has an entire separate rulebook dedicated to all the special rules for US forces.
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Mar 3, 2022 21:26
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If anyone is interested, mellonbread is reviewing The Sword and the Flame, an OG wargame from 1979 about British soldiers, their colonial levies, and the indigenous people who took exception to empire. Starts about halfway down this link; on mobile so couldn't figure how to jump to the start exactly but you can't miss the banner graphic. Be warned it's in a Fatal & Friends thread, so venturing outside the lines may expose you to roleplaying systems -- especially bad ones. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3898332&userid=222188&perpage=40&pagenumber=7 Admiralty Flag fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Mar 3, 2022 |
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Mar 3, 2022 22:20
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Obfuscation posted:I mean, yes and no. (I do own an actual copy of the game btw, but I've only ever played some of the smaller scenarios.) Central America doesn't cover the political element of insurgencies like COIN series attempts to, but a major feature of the game is how it models armed insurgency/guerilla troops vs conventional forces. There are several scenarios about the actual historical and at the time contemporary fighting between Nicaraguan army and the US-backed Contras. In game terms, insurgency units have the ability to leave the game board and reappear elsewhere later which makes them hard to pin down with normal units. There actually is a game from that era- Joe Miranda's Nicaragua, which actually does try to model politics and demographics relating to both the civil wars against the Somoza and Sandinista governments. It has some interesting aspects to it, but I think is underdeveloped. It also has a lot of US, Soviet, Cuban, and other troops from Central America available if the political situation leads there. Panzeh fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Mar 3, 2022 |
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Mar 3, 2022 22:56
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Obfuscation posted:a scenario about the Football War between Honduras and El Salvador, which I'm pretty sure isn't covered by any other board game. There's a scenario/mention of this in SPI's Air War.
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Mar 3, 2022 23:25
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I've mentioned it before but Nicaragua uses an in-depth system for sectors of the population that I really like.
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Mar 3, 2022 23:28
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I've got a copy of 1978's Insurgency from Battleline somewhere. It calls itself "a game of guerilla warfare in modern times" but upon inspection, it's more of a generic scenario based on experiences in Vietnam. That Nicaragua game looks rad as hell. I'm going to try and chase down a copy (edit: found one on BGG). 
AARP LARPer fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Mar 4, 2022 |
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Mar 4, 2022 01:03
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tomdidiot posted:Lol. Everyone else is getting squeamish about wargames while I instead buy Third Winter from Hexasim. LOL, I just bought The Third Winter from Leisure Games too, so you're not alone! Arrives today and I can't loving wait, I love stupid-huge Eastern Front games that I could never actually set up in my tiny flat. Vassal here I come. On another note, is anyone here into the GBACW series? I've had a lot of fun with Death Valley and have Into the Woods coming soon and the Death Valley expansion on P500, so now I'm looking at getting more games in the series. I can find good prices on Gringo!, Dead of Winter, and Red Badge of Courage -- anyone have any opinions/experience with these? I'm also a bit curious about the Civil War Brigade/RSS/LoB series from MMP, if anyone has any hot tips on good entries I'd be curious to hear them.
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Mar 4, 2022 14:56
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thorsilver posted:LOL, I just bought The Third Winter from Leisure Games too, so you're not alone! Arrives today and I can't loving wait, I love stupid-huge Eastern Front games that I could never actually set up in my tiny flat. Vassal here I come. Paging Tekopo
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Mar 5, 2022 01:51
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Sorry, I have no experience with GBACW. I've bought (but never played) LoB from MMP and it seemed good. The one that I really like is GCACW (campaigns, not battles). Yes, it's confusing.
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Mar 5, 2022 09:52
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Tekopo posted:Sorry, I have no experience with GBACW. I've bought (but never played) LoB from MMP and it seemed good. The one that I really like is GCACW (campaigns, not battles). Yes, it's confusing. Fair enough  I've only got Roads to Gettysburg II from the GCACW series but the scenarios I've tried so far were really good, so I'm hoping to get more into GCACW as well.On a whim I just grabbed a sealed copy of This Hallowed Ground, the Gettysburg game from the Regimental Sub-Series (also playable with the LoB rules). I heard good things about it, the price was reasonable, and somehow I don't have any Gettysburg games, so I thought I'd give it a go As far as GBACW goes, the ruleset is pretty chunky but the play itself is very immersive. The maps and counters are also gorgeous, which IMO adds a lot in more tactical games like these. Death Valley has been a lot of fun and is a LOT of game for the money, with five maps, seven countersheets and eight full battles for a really decent price. If you like LoB it may well be worth a punt.
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Mar 5, 2022 10:46
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I didn't even realize this by just looking at them, but I just tried to lay down the three European maps in Third World War and they fit together in a goofy u-shape that would require a huge table to actually play. My table is theoretically big enough for normal three map game like OCS Korea but none of the two-map combos for TWW Europe would fit because of the layout. I wasn't planning on playing any of the combined scenarios outside Vassal anyway, but it's an interesting design for the maps for sure. edit: Nobody has uploaded an image of the maps to BGG yet, so here's a lovely picture. There's an additional east Europe map that covers the gap, but it's not actually used in any scenarios. 
Obfuscation fucked around with this message at 12:13 on Mar 5, 2022 |
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Mar 5, 2022 11:48
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thorsilver posted:Fair enough GCACW's really good, one of the best wargame series out there. I have a lot of them. Obfuscation posted:I didn't even realize this by just looking at them, but I just tried to lay down the three European maps in Third World War and they fit together in a goofy u-shape that would require a huge table to actually play. My table is theoretically big enough for normal three map game like OCS Korea but none of the two-map combos for TWW Europe would fit because of the layout. In terms of quick-playing games, IMO the Battle for Germany is kind of the epitome of TWW, the combined stuff is fun as a long term project but BfG is, IMO the interesting core of the experience. And the battle area being this big oblong thing doesn't help with the form factor, for sure.
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Mar 5, 2022 13:04
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Obfuscation posted:I didn't even realize this by just looking at them, but I just tried to lay down the three European maps in Third World War and they fit together in a goofy u-shape that would require a huge table to actually play. My table is theoretically big enough for normal three map game like OCS Korea but none of the two-map combos for TWW Europe would fit because of the layout. Getting heavy Der Weltkrieg vibes from this map
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Mar 5, 2022 18:24
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Panzeh posted:GCACW's really good, one of the best wargame series out there. I have a lot of them. Any recommendations on where to go with the series after RTG II? The prospect of collecting the series is rather daunting, given the prices. I only finally got RTG II at all because I happened on a punched/clipped copy for less than half the truly huge retail price. I was tempted by Atlanta is Ours but the price put me off; maybe I'm spoiled by OCS and GMT stuff, but £130 for two maps and three countersheets is a bit crazy to me.
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Mar 5, 2022 18:31
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thorsilver posted:Any recommendations on where to go with the series after RTG II? The prospect of collecting the series is rather daunting, given the prices. Atlanta is Ours is interesting, though its grand campaign is very, very long. I like Stonewall Jackson's Way II, which includes both of the Bull Runs. Hood Strikes North is an interesting, not often done campaign that has a very doable big campaign along with its scenarios.
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Mar 5, 2022 18:33
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All Green Alike 
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Mar 5, 2022 18:43
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Tekopo posted:All Green Alike This is a pretty good game, though it's kinda out there in how the rules play out- it's part of Stonewall Jackson's Way II.
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Mar 5, 2022 21:02
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 Mommy says it's MY Turn to invade Ukraine.
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Mar 6, 2022 01:39
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What are people's thoughts on Nevsky? Can see some posts in the thread but reaction seems to be mixed and nobody goes into a ton of detail, so would be interested to know what people do/don't like about it. Does anyone know of any other games of a similar time period and scale? All medieval stuff seems to be either really high level or just battles from what I can find and I would like an "operational" scale game from that period.
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Mar 7, 2022 10:37
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I really liked Nevsky because it attempted to do operational-level logistics for medieval armies which is something that was fairly novel at the time, and the struggle to keep your armies fed and supplied is a really interesting puzzle. The issues with Nevsky is that the battles are relatively random and that you can really get screwed by the levy system, but I think that's still fairly accurate to the time period. I really enjoyed the game though and would recommend it.
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Mar 7, 2022 11:32
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Panzeh posted:Atlanta is Ours is interesting, though its grand campaign is very, very long. I like Stonewall Jackson's Way II, which includes both of the Bull Runs. Hood Strikes North is an interesting, not often done campaign that has a very doable big campaign along with its scenarios. Thanks for the recommendations I'll probably go for Stonewall Jackson's Way II, that seems like a great package with a tonne of variety. I read on CSW that there are some problems with the counters and the game is being fixed, but MMP has no date yet for when this will happen, which is a bit unfortunate, but I'll keep an eye out for it coming back into stock.tomdidiot posted:[Mommy says it's MY Turn to invade Ukraine. My copy of TTW arrived on Saturday, that box is absolutely crammed to the top with awesomeness. The OCS player aids and rulebooks have definitely taken a step up in quality recently too, which is great. On the topic of giant Ostfront games, has anyone played the East Front Series from GMT? I'm feeling a last-minute urge to add a copy of Barbarossa: Army Group Center to my Pacific War preorder; the rules seem straightforward but there's lots of neat chrome, special units and weather effects, so it looks pretty fun. Trying to decide between that and Thunder in the East.
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Mar 7, 2022 12:45
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Tekopo posted:I really liked Nevsky because it attempted to do operational-level logistics for medieval armies which is something that was fairly novel at the time, and the struggle to keep your armies fed and supplied is a really interesting puzzle. The issues with Nevsky is that the battles are relatively random and that you can really get screwed by the levy system, but I think that's still fairly accurate to the time period. I really enjoyed the game though and would recommend it. Thanks! When you say "fairly novel at the time" have there been similar games that have come out since?
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Mar 7, 2022 12:49
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thorsilver posted:Thanks for the recommendations The big change in the counters is to revert from the style they went to for two games (Battle Above the Clouds(Chickamauga and Chattanooga, very expensive now) and Stonewall Jackson's Way II, which were fairly weird and not very clear, but more 'artistic')
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Mar 7, 2022 13:08
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Found in a FB monster wargame group- guy set up World in Flames with Days of Decision- there's a further two card tables set up to the side. The amount of space it takes up is ridiculous.
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Mar 7, 2022 13:33
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NC Wyeth Death Cult posted:Found in a FB monster wargame group- guy set up World in Flames with Days of Decision- there's a further two card tables set up to the side. The amount of space it takes up is ridiculous. Yeah, i can't imagine playing the whole thing outside vassal. If i put it out there irl, i'd probably be playing the ger-ussr scenario or the Battle of the Atlantic scenario
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Mar 7, 2022 13:42
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MikeCrotch posted:Thanks! When you say "fairly novel at the time" have there been similar games that have come out since?
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Mar 7, 2022 14:54
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Can't wait to see the 4 player Nevsky: American War of Independence game! Edit: 4 games huh, Volko doesn't muck around does he MikeCrotch fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Mar 7, 2022 |
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Mar 7, 2022 14:59
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Tekopo posted:The system that Nevsky is based on already has a sequel, and is currently going through some of the same "square peg/round hole" designs that COIN has been plagued with. It's more that I'm worried about the future of the series more than anything. Yeah, that's kinda my big concern- for example, one of the in-development games is a Henry series because, of course, Agincourt, but I think that reaaallly misses the point of the system, and the map is tiny. Every operational aspect ends up being this thing where you have a thunderdome, and the battle system is there to serve the operational, not the other way around. Henry reminds me of an OCS game but played on a 5x5 hex map.
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Mar 7, 2022 15:48
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