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Until we have a clear picture, we can only conclude that he worked for and was killed by extraterrestrials.
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Mar 5, 2022 22:28
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Antigravitas posted:I guess this is where I risk expressing a controversial opinion. oh yeah but its a lower level of awful to the 16-19th century awful of international politics. There was an era where these wars were basically constant. NATO doesn't go around chopping up Africa.
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Mar 5, 2022 22:29
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Kamrat posted:I don't get why they would even do this, shooting non-combatants is just a waste of ammo and it makes the remaining people fight even harder for their land. It’s spite. They are getting their poo poo pushed in a straight up fight and it’s revenge for dead comrades. War is hell and Russia has always out and out atrocities and war crimes purposesfully or doing them big fucks. Plus what djarum said.
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Mar 5, 2022 22:29
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Gorman Thomas posted:Please don't conflate anti-war/anti-NATO and pro-Putin sentiments. It's childish.
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Mar 5, 2022 22:29
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goethe42 posted:You must be new to this forum, Jerry. quit ukraimering into the thread
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Mar 5, 2022 22:30
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Bremen posted:The problem is that these aren't normal circumstances. Russia might not have months, because every week the sanctions are destroying more of their economy and Ukraine is receiving more weapons from the west and mobilizing more of its population/foreign volunteers. And of course what they need to do for the slow and methodical advancement is the complete opposite of what the blitzkrieg strategy requires, so they can't do both and have to choose one. this is largely the thing i don't understand about how russia sees the war. the only thing that can end the sanctions is ending the war. a "victory" over ukraine is a poisoned chalice, because the sanctions remain indefinitely. the only way russia continuing to prosecute the war makes sense is if they quite simply see these as survivable. but i don't understand how that is possible, they very clearly are a huge problem.
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Mar 5, 2022 22:30
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cant cook creole bream posted:So both sides claim that this guy was actually working for them and that the other side killed him? No, both versions were reported as coming from Ukrainian intelligence. It may be as simple as misreporting or miscommunication by journalists rushing to get the scoop. Or it can be an attempt to save face as suggested... Who knows.
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Mar 5, 2022 22:31
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Russian command and control seems highly doubtful so if it is indeed true that Russians shelled evacuation points it's as likely to be stupidity as malice. I don't know why people keep giving Russia so much slack. There's a pattern of behavior here, they have a history of doing this.
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Mar 5, 2022 22:31
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is it likely that the war will accelerate the move away from fossil fuels?
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Mar 5, 2022 22:32
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Gorman Thomas posted:Please don't conflate anti-war/anti-NATO and pro-Putin sentiments. It's childish. I don't think anyone is conflating those things here, unless you want to clarify what you think anti-war means. I'm both anti war and anti NATO. What are you considering the anti war stance is? Because I'm seeing a lot of "don't help Ukraine, don't give them weapons, let Russia do what it wants to avoid bloodshed" which I'd argue isn't anti war at all.
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Mar 5, 2022 22:33
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ranbo das posted:Ukraine isn't winning, they're losing slower than anticipated. It's still an open question what the end result of the war is, but the major question is something like "do you consider everything east of the Dnieper including Kiev being Russian" a Ukrainian victory? Because right now that looks like the "good" outcome for Ukraine. The Russians haven't even taken Kharkiv (or Chernihiv, or Sumy) lol. Try again with "The Russians making some Crimea/DNR land bridge thing" and we might be in business. But all that ignores the laughable idea that Putin is willing to just give up on his main goals wisely and sagely when he is... 1. Clearly not getting good intelligence about what is going on. 2. Super obsessed with his personal image and that of Russia.
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Mar 5, 2022 22:33
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Many leftists refuse to internalize that the perfect is often the enemy of the good. It's a convenient stance, since it's hard to argue against the perfect. And I guess no skin off their back if nothing ever actually gets achieved. To be fair, a lot of horrible things have happened because the US Government decided to be pragmatic in the past and support the "lesser evil" only for it to backfire horribly. And if Ukraine really was controlled by the Azov battalion or similar groups, then I'd worry that this might be another one of them happening right now. But refusing to support a country that both needs and wants our help because they have a small minority of horrible people is going way too far in the other direction.
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Mar 5, 2022 22:34
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Shibawanko posted:is it likely that the war will accelerate the move away from fossil fuels? Nah...
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Mar 5, 2022 22:34
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Shibawanko posted:is it likely that the war will accelerate the move away from fossil fuels? In the sense that it will accelerate their use and the destruction of oil facilities, sure.
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Mar 5, 2022 22:35
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Concerned Citizen posted:this is largely the thing i don't understand about how russia sees the war. the only thing that can end the sanctions is ending the war. a "victory" over ukraine is a poisoned chalice, because the sanctions remain indefinitely. the only way russia continuing to prosecute the war makes sense is if they quite simply see these as survivable. but i don't understand how that is possible, they very clearly are a huge problem. The information supply is rotten. Putin learns about the outside world through a curated folder of info prepared to him by advisors. Imagine living inside a sycophant bubble for the past 20 years without looking for information by yourself. My man cant even google on his own. If you think "jack how do I open pdf" is how it is for american boomer politicians, imagine a paranoid spook who has not eaten a thing from a non-golden plate for a period equal to a lifetime of a conscript dying for his smoothbrain Imperialist project. Post-mortem books are going to be wild fatherboxx fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Mar 5, 2022 |
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Mar 5, 2022 22:35
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You know Russia's invasion of Ukraine short term is going to strengthen NATO, but I'm thinking that if Ukraine beats the invasion it could give support to the opposite position too. The idea being that Russia is so weak that it can't even win against one of the poorest countries in Europe that is right on its front door. Nationalists (or some leftists) may argue that if Russia can't win this, then they can't win anything and we don't need to strengthen NATO. Of course you could counter saying who wants to even have the chance of suffering a war in the first place. America Inc. fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Mar 5, 2022 |
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Mar 5, 2022 22:36
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Family Values posted:I don't know why people keep giving Russia so much slack. There's a pattern of behavior here, they have a history of doing this. Absolutely. The ridiculing of Russian abilities goes too far, they aren't completely cut off, it isn't anarchy in their ranks, they have orders, they have communications, they just aren't very skilled in some respects. Which means they are culpable for their actions. There was supposed to be cease fire, so the Russians went supposed to be firing at all, whether they were aiming specifically to kill, or just to discourage the refugees, they knew what they were doing - breaking the terms of the truce and endangering protected population. This is not up for a debate.
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Mar 5, 2022 22:36
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Shibawanko posted:is it likely that the war will accelerate the move away from fossil fuels? Yes, in Germany in particular.
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Mar 5, 2022 22:37
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fatherboxx posted:The information supply is rotten. Putin learns about the outside world through a curated folder of info prepared to him by advisors. Imagine living inside a sycophant bubble for the past 20 years without looking for information by yourself. My man cant even google on his own. Sounds strangely like what they did with Trump. He had a curated folder everyday with pictures of him looking "strong" with like pre-school level "intelligence" because he didn't have the intellect nor the attention span to read anything. Some even questioned if he could actually read.
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Mar 5, 2022 22:38
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Ghetto SuperCzar posted:I don't think anyone is conflating those things here, unless you want to clarify what you think anti-war means. I'm both anti war and anti NATO. What are you considering the anti war stance is? Because I'm seeing a lot of "don't help Ukraine, don't give them weapons, let Russia do what it wants to avoid bloodshed" which I'd argue isn't anti war at all. Yeah, there's the people hoping for a quick ceasefire (anti-war) and the people hoping for a quick annexation of Ukraine (pro-Putin, but they will try to justify it as anti-war because it's the quickest and easiest way to end the war since supposedly we can't reasonably expect Putin to accept peace on any other terms and that's just the way it's gotta be.)
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Mar 5, 2022 22:39
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Concerned Citizen posted:this is largely the thing i don't understand about how russia sees the war. the only thing that can end the sanctions is ending the war. a "victory" over ukraine is a poisoned chalice, because the sanctions remain indefinitely. the only way russia continuing to prosecute the war makes sense is if they quite simply see these as survivable. but i don't understand how that is possible, they very clearly are a huge problem. Likely Russia's plan was to "win" and then negotiate away the things they don't want in return for reducing sanctions. For example, if they only want eastern Ukraine then they might plan to take it all and then go "well, we'll free western Ukraine if you'll drop these sanctions." They've done similar stuff before, IIRC, and combined with the sanctions taking their toll on Europe/the middle east when oil and grain shortages hit it could potentially work.
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Mar 5, 2022 22:39
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quarantinethepast posted:You know Russia's invasion of Ukraine short term is going to strengthen NATO, but I'm thinking that if Ukraine beats the invasion it could give support to the opposite position too. The only reason Ukraine is winning right now is because of NATO assistance, such as intelligence-sharing, material assistance, the sanctions, etc. Not to downplay the strength of the Ukrainian people, but this would be much worse for them if they didn't have this. And, if they were full NATO members, they wouldn't even be in this situation.
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Mar 5, 2022 22:41
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the holy poopacy posted:Yeah, there's the people hoping for a quick ceasefire (anti-war) and the people hoping for a quick annexation of Ukraine (pro-Putin, but they will try to justify it as anti-war because it's the quickest and easiest way to end the war since supposedly we can't reasonably expect Putin to accept peace on any other terms and that's just the way it's gotta be.) Yeah funny how said "anti-war" stance is rewarding Russia for committing acts of aggression, which will embolden them to do more in the future.
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Mar 5, 2022 22:41
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Young Freud posted:I...I don't know why anyone would take the elevator in active war zone. Feels like an easy way to get trapped and ambushed, let alone get the whole squad in one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W19YePHkY3k
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Mar 5, 2022 22:42
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Acebuckeye13 posted:The issue is that if the value of money collapses, then without massive state intervention most of that wheat won't end up as bread at all — it will be left to rot in the fields, as farmers struggle to afford to pay labor to harvest or transport their crop. Are they reliant on Central Asian migrant workers or something?
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Mar 5, 2022 22:43
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the rat fandom posted:Is there a military term for when an invading force is so far underwater in terms of draining resources that the amount of resources needed to get that force back into fighting shape outweighs the value of the force itself? Quagmire.
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Mar 5, 2022 22:43
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Russia has nukes, USA has nukes, NATO gives Europe a nuclear deterrent. The idea of a Russia invading and occupying the western europe hasn't even really been the raison d'etre for NATO.
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Mar 5, 2022 22:45
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ZombieLenin posted:Maybe it is. My counter point to that it is perfectly alright to say to someone who is preaching no war in a different situation… say in August 1939 Britain, that your argument that we should avoid war at all costs is an argument the, in embryo that also proposes letting Hitler have whatever his heart desires in Europe. Did your autocorrect have a grand mal seizure here? I assume this is supposed to read "an argument that, in the end also" or something similar. Not meant to be a knock on you, I'm just kinda impressed by the typo.
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Mar 5, 2022 22:46
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Shibawanko posted:is it likely that the war will accelerate the move away from fossil fuels? Kind of, hopefully, yes. Putin also just gave the Greens in Germany a gigantic "I told you so", because they were arguing that the fossil fuel dependency was a national security risk, and NS2 in particular a risk to peace in Europe. Even the loving liberals are now framing it as a national security issue. So if something good comes out of this, it may be a much more aggressive transformation of how energy is produced and used. And it should be noted that Germany has a history if exporting tech like this like crazy.
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Mar 5, 2022 22:46
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OddObserver posted:Are they reliant on Central Asian migrant workers or something? There are actually a ton of low-paid guest workesr from the Caucasus and Central Asia in Russia yeah.
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Mar 5, 2022 22:47
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Antigravitas posted:Kind of, hopefully, yes. Putin also just gave the Greens in Germany a gigantic "I told you so", because they were arguing that the fossil fuel dependency was a national security risk, and NS2 in particular a risk to peace in Europe. Even the loving liberals are now framing it as a national security issue. Well the war itself makes energy a national security issue, if that entails expanding solar or coal kinda depends on your country. The oil price will for sure stay high during this, which in itself is good for the green energy though.
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Mar 5, 2022 22:48
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Barrel Cactaur posted:A lot of old school leftists are permanently locked in US/NATO BAD because of the soviet union. Those loyalties transferd somewhat wen the state editor at Sputnik etc. changed from the USSR to Putin. Its more common in older movements, especially explicitly marxist and marx/lenisints. Its like someone who still watches fox, or thinks the BBC is unbiased. They havent built a good filter for content so they have been getting the Ukraine is all nazis line from primary news feeds. TheDeadlyShoe posted:Many leftists refuse to internalize that the perfect is often the enemy of the good. It's a convenient stance, since it's hard to argue against the perfect. And I guess no skin off their back if nothing ever actually gets achieved. Cugel the Clever posted:The folks most adamantly doing that are the pro-Putin folks, though? They're ardently defending Putin's illegal invasion while declaring that this is the only acceptable position of those who are anti-war/anti-imperialism. Young Freud posted:The only reason Ukraine is winning right now is because of NATO assistance, such as intelligence-sharing, material assistance, the sanctions, etc.
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Mar 5, 2022 22:49
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people who haven't gotten over it
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ranbo das posted:Russia has a lot of artillery and a lot of dumb munitions, and a lot of soldiers. They can take a lot of losses, continue loving up and still win, and if they go totally mask off they could reduce most Ukrainian cities to piles of flaming rubble and call it a win. They've been playing relatively nice so far. But can they keep the artillery and soldiers supplied? And war is political, so terror bombing of Ukraine, would trigger even more arms and weapons aid.
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Mar 5, 2022 22:50
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Bremen posted:To be fair, a lot of horrible things have happened because the US Government decided to be pragmatic in the past and support the "lesser evil" only for it to backfire horribly. And if Ukraine really was controlled by the Azov battalion or similar groups, then I'd worry that this might be another one of them happening right now. what strikes me about this war is that there's really nothing ideological or academic about it. there's nothing really ethically complicated about civilians fighting off invading soldiers, the only people in the west who are on putins side are right wing extremists and some creeps who are balls deep into grover furr and stalinist twitter. the ukrainians also reminded everyone what it means to have balls and fight, something that had become abstract to most people in the west it's clarifying and sobering and i wonder what the cultural effect of that will be
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Mar 5, 2022 22:50
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Young Freud posted:The only reason Ukraine is winning right now is because of NATO assistance, such as intelligence-sharing, material assistance, the sanctions, etc. I mean, yeah, probably. Do you want the umpires to throw a penalty flag on Ukraine or something? What does it matter why they're winning (or "winning" if you (not necessarily you, Young Freud) prefer)?
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Mar 5, 2022 22:50
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Concerned Citizen posted:this is largely the thing i don't understand about how russia sees the war. the only thing that can end the sanctions is ending the war. a "victory" over ukraine is a poisoned chalice, because the sanctions remain indefinitely. the only way russia continuing to prosecute the war makes sense is if they quite simply see these as survivable. but i don't understand how that is possible, they very clearly are a huge problem. The Russian bet may be that assuming they successfully occupied Ukraine, the West would get tired of paying higher fuel and food prices and the sanctions would be lessened over time regardless. Hell, American foreign foreign policy can literally change every 4 years, and we saw that happen with Trump vis a vis NATO and Western Europe. I still believe that Russia will win a conventional war against Ukraine. The question Russian leadership has to ask themselves is can they bear the cost. Can they fight a NATO backed partisan war with crippling economic sanctions long enough for the political winds to shift? I'm not so sure they can. BigRoman fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Mar 5, 2022 |
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Mar 5, 2022 22:51
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quarantinethepast posted:You know Russia's invasion of Ukraine short term is going to strengthen NATO, but I'm thinking that if Ukraine beats the invasion it could give support to the opposite position too. Ukraine is the largest European country by landmass if you exclude Russia and has the largest population of any Eastern European country and if they win this war, which is a huge if, they will only win it because of NATO supporting them in any non-WW3-causing way possible. Not to mention the fact that they are also paying a heavy price for having to fight the war in the first place, which NATO is designed to prevent.
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Mar 5, 2022 22:52
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Why is Ukraine abbreviated to UA and Russia to RU?
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Mar 5, 2022 22:52
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:I mean, yeah, probably. Do you want the umpires to throw a penalty flag on Ukraine or something? What does it matter why they're winning (or "winning" if you (not necessarily you, Young Freud) prefer)? really dude he was responding to a post that suggested Ukrainian victory could lead to NATO becoming less important. the fact that NATO is the reason for Ukrainian success is therefore very relevant because it means being in NATO or having good relations with NATO remains very important to a nation's security
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Mar 5, 2022 22:53
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Shibawanko posted:is it likely that the war will accelerate the move away from fossil fuels? Any time gas prices are high it accelerates the move away from fossil fuels and helps tip the market towards fuel efficient stuff
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Mar 5, 2022 22:54
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