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orangelex44 posted:They were supposed to be playable at the same time that Mortal Empires came out, but due to issues with separate builds it took something like four months to implement them - and at CA's own admission, this significantly delayed the schedule for DLC releases. October 5th (when the workshop launched for 2) is one week after September 28th and it's been two and a half weeks already since February 17th. If we were on the timeline for Warhammer 2 we would have had workshop support on February 24th, and Immortal Empires would be out on March 17th. It sounds like we probably won't even have the first big support patch by then, and if workshop support is coming with it they haven't said so. I think Legend talking about how the game is basically not worth playing right now is obviously a lot stronger than the language he used in his pre-launch review. It's not that I think streamers were deliberately lying, but I think they felt like they were in a weird position where they'd been brought in as part of the marketing team for the game and maybe didn't feel free to be as blunt as they might have otherwise been. Plus obviously telling people the game's poo poo when they wanted to keep making money off of streaming it gave them an incentive to tone it down too. Of course I can't go in their heads and know for sure what was going on, but the feeling I got from most of the reviews before launch was more 'really fun but with some concerns' while post launch I think a lot of them (who aren't outright negative now) have flipped the order of that to 'many concerns, but there's fun to be had.' And they'd already played more hours before launch than almost any of us have played since, so I don't think it's all about burning out since launch.
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Mar 6, 2022 16:05
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Cracker King posted:I haven’t checked in on any news about WH3 for a few days and suddenly WH3 is the worst game to ever come out? And Legend isn’t streaming it until it’s ‘fixed.’ edit: LegendOfTotalWar puts it really well here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwgoZXczzKRm4eurUNL9srg/community?lb=UgkxRtcy8d7hDXiPswpmPHk7jOaNKI4a5Kb6 Which is part of why I'm going to stop posting about it. If you enjoy it, then have at it. I'm annoyed at the preventable blunders and bad design and wish I could get my money back but will just wait to see if CA can fix it in like 6 months or something. AAAAA! Real Muenster fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Mar 6, 2022 |
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Mar 6, 2022 16:06
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I keep seeing that Nurgle needs tweaked. I see that on Reddit it is voted the faction that needs to be looked at the most because it underperforms. I say they're all full of poo poo. And they just need to learn how to get it OUT  Here's the first fight. Yes yes, they are all easy fights. I'm not pointing out how well I did. I'm pointing out how I ran down every last loving gnoblar. Total War Warhammer 3 secret to success is field battles. I have had more field battles than I know what to do with. Which is what we asked for. Now, I spend a lot of time in ambush stance whether I think I'm going to ambush or not. I just want the AI to make hosed up moves. You should too. Also, there is of course, the realms of chaos. The portals are all field battles if you close them in any army. You can do it with someone else's army! You can do this in any stance. Maybe not ambush, but you can march at it. The AI seems to absolutely hate being sieged by me, I think it's that new attrition they take, anyway if I just surround even a minor settlement for all of one turn and if there's an army in there the result is more often than not you guessed it: a field battle. Even ogre camps (which are like minor settlement battles) are considered field battles for one of the most important parts of this game. Those little buttons you get to choose only after a field battle. And for many factions, the more enemy you chase down at the end, the more of a faction specific currency you get. Factions without a currency? Your replenishment option is tied to this amount. This post is about Nurgle, but this is true for every single faction in this game: I struggle and get increasingly annoyed on the campaign layer the more I auto resolve. If you can find a way to enjoy these battles (even the bullshit ones that don't matter because very often they do) and man if the game is running well for you they are really easy to enjoy visually. And the audio. I love watching my replays. The point being is my recommendation for any campaign (in specifically the race to the demon souls in Total War Warhammer 3) is to figure out a way to enjoy fighting every last battle. Shorter sessions? Idk, but the game rewards you for it. Once you get in the flow of the Chaos realms you might find yourself eager to get in. And get some field battles. And a lot of the campaigns, specifically chaos campaigns, really reward you for having lots of battles. And now there is an intricate, gameable reinforcement system you can use to get multiple battles like lightning strike, but without lightning strike (which I've taken all of once all the way). Best way to get multiple battles? Leave some stragglers alive if the enemy isn't in march stance. If you autoresolve, the game annihilates the enemy army. If you play the battle, you get two battles if it isn't all demons. This is extremely helpful (like Skarbrand can really really fly now) and literally solves the complaints of the Tzeentch realm entirely if you already hadn't replaced your TW2 puzzle solutions bookmark with the map of the Tzeentch realm bookmark. Back to Nurgle who needs buffs  When I start a campaign, I always ask myself. What's specifically OP about this faction? What hurdles has CA put in my way to achieve this? For every demon faction, it tends to be very thematic. It took me a second to find this for Nurgle. It was the hurdles that clued me in. It took me forever to figure out how to increase my hero limit in Nurgle's campaign. Oh! It's tied to resource buildings. I look at the map. There are none in my starter province. I either have to invade Nurgle buddies, invade Norsca prematurely (which is certainly doable) or....look at that fucker to the north with that four settlement province perfect for plague spreading and two god drat resource nodes. That Tzeentch fucker. We hate Tzeentch. What's worse than fighting Tzeentch early game? Probably mid game Tzeentch. And late game Tzeentch is worse than that. So do as you will, but best advice? Get rid of them. They're all basically right there. They have great territories. And you can make the battles easier by farming infections (by fighting battles). How do you run down those fleeing troops you are wanting to ask me? Well, get a lot of use out of frogs early game. But also, the game understands your pain and that is why Ogres are your first enemy. Camps can be farmed in your opening province (In every single campaign I have started (all of them) bee lining for getting your opening province is a mistake and there is always something better to do first and I think CA designed it that way) gnoblars can be fed to toads, and they even thought to send you dwarfs every ten turns! The dwarfs are obsessed with you! Be happy! You can run them down! What to do with infections? Get the Green Pox. And start just loving rubbing that poo poo on everything. This gets you here:  That's tier V completed on turn 46 so I started it probably on like turn 40 (can't remember the time to build). It seems you are the Babylon of the Civilizations and you have just out teched the gently caress out of Tzeentch. So yes, after portal one (go get money from Slaanesh you can catch up later trust me the buildings to take advantage of tier V are expensive). Switch your focus to the plague that gives your entire army vanguard deployment. Start using plague cultists to inflict attrition (and if you want to auto resolve the armor debuff works like magic) on every single enemy army. If you are fighting your battles, you are swimming in infections. Get creative. Get thematic. Get those mega plagues unlocked. Because vanguard deployment with absolutely bonkers casualty replenishment is going to take you through most of this game and is preferred in fights against fellow demons but when it comes time to bring Grandfather's love to Cathay and Kislev they have no counter to Nurgle's Rot. You are at 40% physical resist army wide. So now you're fighting. Your heroes have filled your gaps. You've got plague ridden who can anchor some plaguebearers in the woods on foot or palanquin, but they really shine on flies. They refuse to die and can just bop over to the enemy army and act as your artillery and kind of your ranged harrassers (at least providing a bottomless pit for their arrows to fall in to). It's your cultists who are your Nurgle Knights. These badboys feel like speed 200 when you're playing Nurgle, also just seem to refuse to die, and can summon a ton of tough demons that will last for the ENTIRE duration of the summons even unsupported. I kind of max out with three in an army with the busy work. If you've got The Rot, three cultist, you can do a drive by and drop seven portal summons on the enemy army and just ride away.  sorry dark     first time at a gatePlease please buff Nurgle! So, I shared all those photos not to toot my own horn, but to have you look at the health bars of all those troops. And they mostly all fought. I think another key to Nurgle is it rewards my tendency to spam cheap spells from the Nurgle lore in my armies that I am trying to stack with heroes because they, again, are what make Nurgle OP. So I'm throwing melee attack and charge bonus debuffs at any significant unit charging my blob and streaming when I can and proccing our healing every time I cast a spell and suddenly the big mega heal for Nurgle is a spell I only ever bother with at the end maybe on some single unit that got caught out. You just heal all loving battle. Like some sort of butt vampires. So keep your winds up. As for the general speed complaint, I still find Nurgle to be quicker than dwarves or Cathay functionally. Like, yes, the blob moves slow. But the blob does not need to be neat and orderly. The blob cares not what unit is up front. And if you build your empire just right, you can start to see Grandfather's face in the Map!!!  In conclusion:  Twigand Berries fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Mar 6, 2022 |
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Mar 6, 2022 16:17
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Sinteres posted:October 5th (when the workshop launched for 2) is one week after September 28th and it's been two and a half weeks already since February 17th. If we were on the timeline for Warhammer 2 we would have had workshop support on February 24th, and Immortal Empires would be out on March 17th. It sounds like we probably won't even have the first big support patch by then, and if workshop support is coming with it they haven't said so. Right gently caress I can read calendars I promise, something in my brain was reading October as November. Fair point then. Sinteres posted:I think Legend talking about how the game is basically not worth playing right now is obviously a lot stronger than the language he used in his pre-launch review. It's not that I think streamers were deliberately lying, but I think they felt like they were in a weird position where they'd been brought in as part of the marketing team for the game and maybe didn't feel free to be as blunt as they might have otherwise been. Plus obviously telling people the game's poo poo when they wanted to keep making money off of streaming it gave them an incentive to tone it down too. Of course I can't go in their heads and know for sure what was going on, but the feeling I got from most of the reviews before launch was more 'really fun but with some concerns' while post launch I think a lot of them (who aren't outright negative now) have flipped the order of that to 'many concerns, but there's fun to be had.' And they'd already played more hours before launch than almost any of us have played since, so I don't think it's all about burning out since launch. [shrug]... the only streamers I watch are the MP guys and they largely are having a good time. There's a couple specific units and spells that are overtuned, and Nurgle is pretty clearly dumpster-tier, but I'm not getting the same interpretation as you seem to be. AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:I've been pretty vocal about disliking the game but have not said its the worst game ever. I'm saying that the new campaign and a number of other things about the game suck. I've played three campaigns halfway through, each time struggling through new lovely things that they added while occasionally having fun with some of the new mechanics or factions. Because you have to play the game to realize you dont like it, ya know? I cant know I dont like it without playing it. So now that I've put in ~25 hours of being annoyed at a number of things I've already posted about and wont go on about again, I wish I could refund my money and my time because I could not find a way to redeem the horribly dumb poo poo CA did with it. The pre-release streams by the content creators made the game seemed fine, but getting my hands on it showed me otherwise. Now we're seeing guys like Legend getting disgusted with CA's handling of it because he's been pointing out some of these issues for months and CA just went on full steam ahead. I enjoy the core gameplay loop of upgrading cities to get better units to fight fun battles with, and I can still do that with the game. The problem is that the AI is more chickenshit than ever, 75%+ of all battles are settlement battles, and settlement battles are even more tedious and annoying than they were before. So, with other negative additions to the game, despite the QoL improvements and fun new rosters, I'm really annoyed at CA for the dumb poo poo they did. I'm going to stop posting about it now. So a) it sounds like Legend is pretty specifically a catalyst here, and b) Legend's post is very much not saying that he told CA ahead of time, if anything it's the opposite and he feels that he wasn't involved until too late in the process ("In the lead up to launch I, and all other creators, were drip fed boring meetings, blogs and other unimportant information that was most of the time 1-2 days before it was public knowledge. There was not a single opportunity to actually get involved in the development of Warhammer 3 nor were we even informed about what the campaign was going to be about."). By his own admission there's only one specific issue that truly bothers him, which is the Soul Race mechanic. Now, you seem to have a separate concern regarding settlement battles which is also a valid point of feedback, but in my own anecdotal experience WH2 plays out very similarly with the heavy majority of fights being sieges, and sieges sucking pretty hard unless you just auto-resolve them away. So yes, it's annoying and bad, but it's not really any different other than that WH3 was supposed to be "fixing" sieges and ultimately didn't.
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Mar 6, 2022 16:43
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orangelex44 posted:So a) it sounds like Legend is pretty specifically a catalyst here, and b) Legend's post is very much not saying that he told CA ahead of time, if anything it's the opposite and he feels that he wasn't involved until too late in the process ("In the lead up to launch I, and all other creators, were drip fed boring meetings, blogs and other unimportant information that was most of the time 1-2 days before it was public knowledge. There was not a single opportunity to actually get involved in the development of Warhammer 3 nor were we even informed about what the campaign was going to be about."). By his own admission there's only one specific issue that truly bothers him, which is the Soul Race mechanic. Now, you seem to have a separate concern regarding settlement battles which is also a valid point of feedback, but in my own anecdotal experience WH2 plays out very similarly with the heavy majority of fights being sieges, and sieges sucking pretty hard unless you just auto-resolve them away. So yes, it's annoying and bad, but it's not really any different other than that WH3 was supposed to be "fixing" sieges and ultimately didn't.
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Mar 6, 2022 16:46
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Is the issue the soul race, or soul race on repeat? Because I really liked the emergent poo poo of feeling like I had to choose whether to use Katarin to dive into a portal or whether I felt like I needed to defend my lands first. I'm about to go into Nurgle's realm two turns behind another lord just because I couldn't afford to leave early, and if that was a mistake, that's very cool that I actually had to make a hard decision instead of just rolling over everything. On the other hand I could see being annoyed at repeating them every campaign even if I'm enjoying it now. I would like the ability to destroy or steal (probably just destroy) souls that other lords had grabbed by sacking their capital or killing them or something, but not yet.
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Mar 6, 2022 16:50
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quote:There was not a single opportunity to actually get involved in the development of Warhammer 3 nor were we even informed about what the campaign was going to be about. It'd be rude and pedantic to tear his post apart bit by bit so all that really needs to be said is that Legend is showing himself to be very naive in his entire post. He's a content creator that volunteered, as many of them do, to do free marketing work for a pair of major corporations for a flagship AAA release. In exchange he'd get early access to the title and to generate a bunch of content for his livelihood. If he's genuinely surprised that PTB/pre-release builds aren't used to ask "true fans"/idea men to fix games that are already in or near release state then I don't know what to say other then to make fun of him. And yes there are a lot of things CA could've done differently regarding the campaign and they had plenty of warning here. That doesn't mean they will or can do it, particularly close to release. "Hey, we're redoing all the variables and some of the code for the entire campaign, go bug test this across 9+ variations of a game that takes dozens of hours to playthrough once. Also disregard all the playtesting we've already done." A lot of the history of video game development is also locked into the people in charge sticking to their vision, for better or for worse. I'm just laughing incredulously here that Legend really thought CA was pulling him on board to actually help design the game. We're a very long way past the days of FPS devs pulling in their mega fans to help design the new titles.
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Mar 6, 2022 16:56
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This kind of thing happened with a Division 2 streamer and we were all better off that he did not get a huge degree of input. Surprised Legend expected that. E: I meant the Division streamer did not get significant input on the PvP meta or campaign. I'd personally trust Legend a lot more than that guy, but pro-driven development is not generally a good idea as their playstyles are usually pathological. Shumagorath fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Mar 6, 2022 |
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Mar 6, 2022 17:04
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Shumagorath posted:This kind of thing happened with a Division 2 streamer and we were all better off that he did not get a huge degree of input. Surprised Legend expected that. As someone who generally agrees that the campaign is not very fun, particularly after multiple playthroughs, I can say that it's probably good that Legend didn't get to offer any input. I love the guy as much as anyone, but he really doesn't play like a normal human being. I'm confident CA will get around to patching everything like they have been since they started with WH1 in 2016. WH3 is good overall, with a bad campaign (same as vortex) and a few bugs. Mods and Immortal Empires will take care of everything.
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Mar 6, 2022 17:09
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I agree about Legend having weird expectations, but I'm glad he acknowledged that he's not happy with his pre-release review of the game and explained where it was coming from with it.
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Mar 6, 2022 17:13
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Yeah - all arguments are valid but I’m just surprised at how the conversation went from ‘good with caveats/concerns’ to ‘straight up unplayable.’ Like Cyberpunk was legit unplayable when it came out. And folks with multiple playthroughs complaining after the fact is just odd to me. Even if arguments are valid - like having to play to know. Once Immortal Empires is out I’ll probably never play the normal campaign again either.
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Mar 6, 2022 18:08
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Cracker King posted:Yeah - all arguments are valid but I’m just surprised at how the conversation went from ‘good with caveats/concerns’ to ‘straight up unplayable.’ literally nobody has said the game is unplayable at any point in this thread
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Mar 6, 2022 18:12
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what stops you from getting khorne's realm weapons/full army heal? when I walk into one I get no error and no message. help, im dying
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Mar 6, 2022 18:15
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If you watch prerelease reviews of the DLC packs for 2, you'll know that they're often working with placeholder assets or things that are straining to break with their review copy and the released DLC is pretty solid. I think it was fair to expect that some of the really obvious problems would be fixed by launch, but if a month of iterative builds without major fixes didn't show him which way the wind was blowing, I don't know what to say Literally everything that made his playstyle viable was removed. Finite pool of magic, unresponsive unit micro, borderline useless traits, cav that can blow past spears and straight into your backline, enemy turns with ~60 factions that somehow take longer the WH2 with ~150 factions, lords and heros feeling nerfed, the nightmare that is public order, the extreme repetition of demon souls. Everything that he found fun about WH2 had been removed or tweaked to no longer suit him and his ability to stream. His career was on the line and I honestly don't know what the gently caress he was playing for all of January, because as soon as I got my first soul, I knew that he would hate the game and his streams wouldn't be fun to watch Speaking of magic, is magic kind of lackluster for everyone else? Maybe the AI just got better at dodging, but vortex spells seem to be a waste of resources in anything except settlements or seiges. Tzeentch's triple vortex is really cool, but I find that it has less utility than his magic missiles or breath, because those are cheap, have almost no cooldown, and don't allow much dodging because they come out instantly
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Mar 6, 2022 18:21
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:I dont know why you're bothering to quote me when we frequently talk past each other and I said I was going to stop posting about it. I dont know what you're trying to prove by constantly trying to argue with me about me not liking the game. Whats the point? Legend is not a catalyst here. He also said he provided feedback once he did get his hands on it. I'm mostly just trying to understand what people are actually getting mad about, and whether it's an actually justified anger or just a vicious feedback loop of minor things getting magnified. Like for Sinteres, I can understand saying "I wanted mods online earlier because that's what WH2 did" - I might not agree on whether that should be an expectation up front, but I can get why they would think that. However, that's not necessarily something to get mad over IMO, and it sucks to see decent games from pretty decent devs get ripped apart without justification. If the only people posting are the ones who are pissed off, it'll just keep reinforcing the negativity which makes everyone get mad. It's a healthier thread if someone steps in to give an alternate viewpoint. In this specific case, half of your comment that I quoted was inaccurately referencing an outside poster in Legend so I wanted to both provide and get clarification. And yes, he probably did give some feedback but that was in mid-January at the earliest, when nothing of actual significance is possibly going to change at that point. The best that CA can reasonably do is fix minor bugs or obvious balance tweaks for the release candidate while making notes for future patches, which is exactly what looks to have happened?
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Mar 6, 2022 18:21
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The Door Frame posted:Literally everything that made his playstyle viable was removed. I don't think this is it, I'm regularly using Legend style tricks and cheese in my WH3 campaigns. Some of them are even buffed, things like pulling off "impossible" wins vs multiple enemy stacks rewards you with 3-5 levels per Lord/Hero. And while they're still not fun on repeat the realms can be very efficiently gamed and solved. quote:Speaking of magic, is magic kind of lackluster for everyone else? Maybe the AI just got better at dodging, but vortex spells seem to be a waste of resources in anything except settlements or seiges. Tzeentch's triple vortex is really cool, but I find that it has less utility than his magic missiles or breath, because those are cheap, have almost no cooldown, and don't allow much dodging because they come out instantly Magic is as strong as ever. The AI is significantly better at dodging if they are not stuck in. The changes to infantry behavior and speed of response in getting out of battles actually makes it easier now to vortex a stuck in front/blob. Some of the new spells are insanely long cast + animation times(Mirror Shards with Slaanesh is 7 + 7) and you'll virtually never hit loose AI units. There are a lot of super powerful new quick casting spells and buffs/debuffs, particularly in Chaos lores. I like a good vortex and 300+ kills caster as much as anyone but I prefer to take lots of small advantages from the AI by using cheap spammed spells to disrupt as many fights as possible once my guys engage theirs.
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Mar 6, 2022 18:29
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orangelex44 posted:I'm mostly just trying to understand what people are actually getting mad about, and whether it's an actually justified anger or just a vicious feedback loop of minor things getting magnified. Like for Sinteres, I can understand saying "I wanted mods online earlier because that's what WH2 did" - I might not agree on whether that should be an expectation up front, but I can get why they would think that. However, that's not necessarily something to get mad over IMO, and it sucks to see decent games from pretty decent devs get ripped apart without justification. If the only people posting are the ones who are pissed off, it'll just keep reinforcing the negativity which makes everyone get mad. It's a healthier thread if someone steps in to give an alternate viewpoint. Not trying to be argumentative at this point, but just to clarify, I specifically want mods online ASAP because I think this campaign is worse/more intrusive than the Vortex campaign and I don't want to have to deal with it, and I think the changes to minor settlement battles are also extremely bad and want to mod them out or at least reduce/eliminate tower spam. But honestly if they just added a toggle to remove the campaign I'd start playing again. So it's not that I want mod support just for its own sake, but that I have specific things I actively dislike about the game in its current state that I think mods could make non-issues. I do think it's concerning in a broader sense that the timeline on stuff like mod support is slipping, because it suggests to me that they're running into code debt issues from a rushed release, but once I'm having fun with the core game I feel like I'll be a lot more patient with whatever time they need to get everything else sorted before they can start making cool new stuff. It's not like I expect this to be my forever game without any lulls between content releases anyway--I just want to have the good first 30-50 hour experience I expected to have in the first place, and then like I did with 2 I can wait to see where it goes from there and hope to have fun dipping in and out over multiple years. But yeah just repeatedly venting about my disappointment doesn't do any good, so I'll wait for further developments (good or bad) to comment on before piping up again.
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Mar 6, 2022 18:43
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orangelex44 posted:I'm mostly just trying to understand what people are actually getting mad about, and whether it's an actually justified anger or just a vicious feedback loop of minor things getting magnified. Like for Sinteres, I can understand saying "I wanted mods online earlier because that's what WH2 did" - I might not agree on whether that should be an expectation up front, but I can get why they would think that. However, that's not necessarily something to get mad over IMO, and it sucks to see decent games from pretty decent devs get ripped apart without justification. If the only people posting are the ones who are pissed off, it'll just keep reinforcing the negativity which makes everyone get mad. It's a healthier thread if someone steps in to give an alternate viewpoint. I think what most people are getting mad about is the souls and the rifts. I've only played one campaign so far, and it's been as Skarbrand, so the rifts haven't really bothered me. I've just built the basic garrison buildings everywhere, which is enough to defend against the rift stacks and rebellions from the corruption, and you either don't get growth maluses from the corruption or I just haven't noticed because you get insane growth from bloodletting later on. But I also have a pretty high tolerance for tedium, and the extra battles have started to get on my nerves. The actual realms have been pretty eh, but I used a map for Tzeentch and no-one else entered that realm that time anyway. But if I wasn't playing Skarbrand, with 461 battles so far on turn 108, the RoC and rift stuff would probably be a much bigger part of the campaign proportionally and I'd probably be fed up too. The Door Frame posted:If you watch prerelease reviews of the DLC packs for 2, you'll know that they're often working with placeholder assets or things that are straining to break with their review copy and the released DLC is pretty solid. I think it was fair to expect that some of the really obvious problems would be fixed by launch, but if a month of iterative builds without major fixes didn't show him which way the wind was blowing, I don't know what to say He explains that pretty well I think, he was going for domination and just closing the rifts with heroes, so he wasn't engaging with the campaign mechanics. It wasn't a huge issue until the game came out and people started asking him about the souls, and he couldn't stop himself from basically ranting about them when that happened. That plus he apparently expected CA to listen to feedback from the creator program for some reason
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Mar 6, 2022 18:45
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A quaint tavern, abustle with sound, straddling a crossroad deep in the heart of The Empire.... "Oy! Helmut. How do you fare?" a grizzled peasant sidles up to a table, Helmut seated gazing at a plate of greens and mug of water. "Welcome, friend," Helmut sighed, the gaze lifted from his plate was veiled in sorrow. "Missing the meat?" "Aye, but not as much..." Helmut's gaze shifted to his mug of water. "Aye, I've heard some men have taken to fighting for the dwarfs against all sorts of monstrosities in the cold mountains all for the chance at...." "ALE" both men say together, slumping into their seats in dejection. Helmut abruptly sat up, "But you know what, Fritz? You know what I saw the other day? I saw a dance at the town hall. Young men and women flirtin' and dancin' the night away, not a care in the world." "I'm listening." Helmut became more heated, "You know me, I was the first to denounce Flakey Franz for the Vegan Edict. No more meat? Are you daft? How would we fight against the encroaching tides of horrors with no gods damned meat on our bones???" "HERE HERE" Some of the crowd in the bar nearby had overheard and were now listening. The undercurrents of dissent evident here, in the heart of the Reikland. Helmut realized the attention he was attracting and steeled himself, heaving his tired farmer's body up from his seat to better address the throng in the tavern. "And then came the Dry Plague. Franz has forbidden a man the right to enjoy himself after a hard day's labor! How dare he you might say! How dare he!" Angry voices are raised, a few tankards of water dashed to floor. The crowd is ready to go outside and eat all the horses. "BUT LISTEN, FRIENDS" Helmut suddenly exclaimed, quieting the room instantly, Helmut seemingly a respected man. Or at least a gifted orator. "Where are the widows? Where is the disease? Where are the endless fields of graves? Where are our sons today? Off in distant lands fighting savage northmen and beasts? No, my friends, they are here. Our sons are here with us. And yes, we might not celebrate today with Ale or roasted pig, but at least we are together. And The Emperor has provided that for us. As well as these Ogres he employs. I hear they defeated a colossal daemon of rage today my friends. One that would have burned us all. So, I say to you this today my friends, my comrades," Helmut reaches down and grabs a fistful of greens and smashes them into his mouth. "Eat your greens, my friends" he says through his chewing, scraps of plant matter falling from his mouth. "Eat your greens," a single tear rolls down Helmut's face. 
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Mar 6, 2022 18:49
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Sigmar protect our large defenders. 
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Mar 6, 2022 19:08
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 Khorne campaign hack: you can use the basic "eternal war" manifestation to refresh Skarbrand's movement after moving through a campaign portal, letting you get a step ahead in the Slaanesh or Tzeentch realms! Unfortunately you can't do the same with whatever that second Unholy Manifestation is, although I feel like that one might be bugged anyway.
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Mar 6, 2022 19:08
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Muscle Tracer posted:
It's a little head start in Khorne's realm too.
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Mar 6, 2022 19:19
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the forest has been quiet as of late....
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Mar 6, 2022 19:41
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lol GW doing another price rise.
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Mar 6, 2022 19:49
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Oh god, I just now realized that I will be able to field great archers or infantry in my Bretonnian armies, and I simply can't wait to try that. fake edit: Edgar Allen Ho posted:lol GW doing another price rise. Oh? What's going up in price, models?
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Mar 6, 2022 19:52
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orangelex44 posted:I'm mostly just trying to understand what people are actually getting mad about, and whether it's an actually justified anger or just a vicious feedback loop of minor things getting magnified. Like for Sinteres, I can understand saying "I wanted mods online earlier because that's what WH2 did" - I might not agree on whether that should be an expectation up front, but I can get why they would think that. However, that's not necessarily something to get mad over IMO, and it sucks to see decent games from pretty decent devs get ripped apart without justification. If the only people posting are the ones who are pissed off, it'll just keep reinforcing the negativity which makes everyone get mad. It's a healthier thread if someone steps in to give an alternate viewpoint. I think it’s pretty fair to criticize a game, that plays worse, runs worse, and is worse designed then the end point of their last game and that is a fair stance to have for a game that was in development for a very long time that they charged 60$ for. Is it all fixable? Yes, but they dug themselves a much bigger hole on this one. I don’t think warning people away is a bad move given the current state. I’m glad people are having fun but I think tempering both sides is a much better indicator of the games health. Once again, months from now it’s fine, but like I told my friends, people should hold off on this till it has some patches under its belt.
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Mar 6, 2022 20:03
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Yeah, Norsca's campaign is the issue. Battle-wise they're actually quite fun. It's really that they haven't been touched since WH1 at all. When they first released, they were considered one of the best, possibly THE best, DLCs for WH1. But their playstyle did not translate well to WH2, and unlike the Wood Elves, they haven't gotten an update to fix this.
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Mar 6, 2022 20:10
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Ravenfood posted:Is the issue the soul race, or soul race on repeat? Because I really liked the emergent poo poo of feeling like I had to choose whether to use Katarin to dive into a portal or whether I felt like I needed to defend my lands first. I'm about to go into Nurgle's realm two turns behind another lord just because I couldn't afford to leave early, and if that was a mistake, that's very cool that I actually had to make a hard decision instead of just rolling over everything. On the other hand I could see being annoyed at repeating them every campaign even if I'm enjoying it now. The soul race sucks because nothing you do on the campaign map matters at all. If you're looking to win, especially on higher difficulties, the correct play is to take like 3 provinces, recruit an LL doomstack and a defensive stack, then mash end turn until a rift appears, do the rift, sit your lord in a capital to heal the bad traits, then mash end turn until the next rift appears. The campaign would be immensely better if 1. taking souls/going into the rifts had a tangible effect(like bonuses or rewards or dilemmas) on the campaign map when it happened, 2. there was a consolation prize for missing out on a soul, and 3. there was some way to disrupt or leapfrog ahead in the race besides "beat everyone else to the soul initially" and "kill their entire faction". Kanos fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Mar 6, 2022 |
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Mar 6, 2022 20:26
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Sinteres posted:Not trying to be argumentative at this point, but just to clarify, I specifically want mods online ASAP because I think this campaign is worse/more intrusive than the Vortex campaign and I don't want to have to deal with it, and I think the changes to minor settlement battles are also extremely bad and want to mod them out or at least reduce/eliminate tower spam. But honestly if they just added a toggle to remove the campaign I'd start playing again. So it's not that I want mod support just for its own sake, but that I have specific things I actively dislike about the game in its current state that I think mods could make non-issues. I do think it's concerning in a broader sense that the timeline on stuff like mod support is slipping, because it suggests to me that they're running into code debt issues from a rushed release, but once I'm having fun with the core game I feel like I'll be a lot more patient with whatever time they need to get everything else sorted before they can start making cool new stuff. It's not like I expect this to be my forever game without any lulls between content releases anyway--I just want to have the good first 30-50 hour experience I expected to have in the first place, and then like I did with 2 I can wait to see where it goes from there and hope to have fun dipping in and out over multiple years. I found the game had enough other problems that this wasn't helpful for me but you should check out the modding discord. There are already mods you can download and use that remove the chaos realm, add new win conditions, and fix the disbanded Lord upkeep bug.
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Mar 6, 2022 20:27
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Gonkish posted:Yeah, Norsca's campaign is the issue. Battle-wise they're actually quite fun. You would think it can't be that hard to make them good again, Wood Elves have a fun campaign where they don't have to worry too much about their limited home settlements and just zap around the world doing stuff (and often razing settlements in the process). In theory, if you had some kind of mobile settlements as Norsca, and if non-chaos factions had a much slower campaign range in not-Scandinavia, you could achieve a similar effect. Then you'd only need some rebalancing of the economy (while keeping the general economic mechanic of "need to raid and raze to keep out of the red"), and perhaps a look at their dilemmas and god boons. And I'm extremely curious how they will implement Warriors of Chaos in Immortal Empires. Because if there's a contender for "worse campaign than Norsca", it's WoC. Surely they won't just get folded into the other 5 chaos factions?
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Mar 6, 2022 20:37
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Cracker King posted:
Yeah no poo poo dude, a large part of the appeal of ME in TWW2 is that no one told you how to play. As is frequently mentioned, the Vortex was annoying but you could also ignore it mostly, which RoC doesn't let you do. The campaign is just poorly thought out as is. Not sure if Legend's most recent post has been shared here yet, but if not: https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/t7ymfp/legend_on_this_subreddit_and_ca/ As I've been mentioning, Legend has the point in there about how CA could stop supporting TWW3 the way they've abandoned several other recent titles. I really don't see a reason to CA the benefit of the doubt with assuming that they'll just fix all the bad things about the game that are out there now, since their recent behavior is a departure from their more hands on approach to TWW2. They don't have another game to sell after TWW3, and at some point fixing the bugs, unit collision issues, the infantry turn stuff that was pointed out in that Zerkovich video, etc is going to look like a bigger expense than they want to deal with since it likely won't be bundled with a DLC. The fact that they stopped supporting 3K after all the hype is a bad sign, I really don't see a reason to believe that they've learned the lessons they need to fix the current game if they somehow didn't learn that from TWW2.
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Mar 6, 2022 20:37
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Torrannor posted:In theory, if you had some kind of mobile settlements as Norsca, and if non-chaos factions had a much slower campaign range in not-Scandinavia, you could achieve a similar effect. Then you'd only need some rebalancing of the economy (while keeping the general economic mechanic of "need to raid and raze to keep out of the red"), and perhaps a look at their dilemmas and god boons. They're called Ogre Camps and they'd be a great fit for Norsca.
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Mar 6, 2022 20:41
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Angrymantium posted:As I've been mentioning, Legend has the point in there about how CA could stop supporting TWW3 the way they've abandoned several other recent titles. I really don't see a reason to CA the benefit of the doubt with assuming that they'll just fix all the bad things about the game that are out there now, since their recent behavior is a departure from their more hands on approach to TWW2. They don't have another game to sell after TWW3, and at some point fixing the bugs, unit collision issues, the infantry turn stuff that was pointed out in that Zerkovich video, etc is going to look like a bigger expense than they want to deal with since it likely won't be bundled with a DLC. The fact that they stopped supporting 3K after all the hype is a bad sign, I really don't see a reason to believe that they've learned the lessons they need to fix the current game if they somehow didn't learn that from TWW2. They sold DLC for TWW2 for *five years* and the game GAINED players over time. It was a money printing machine where they could charge significant fractions of the game's original cost(a race pack is $20, a unit pack is $10) for a much smaller fraction of the effort required to make the game in the first place. Comparing historical DLC to TWW DLC is off-base. To casual players, the draw of playing a historical is "oh cool I can play Spartans against Romans" or "oh cool I can play as Nobunaga". There's not much incentive to buy tons of DLC for a historical unless you really care about increasingly obscure countries/factions or alternate campaigns(I'm pretty sure the only actually successful alternate campaign CA ever released was Fall of the Samurai). In TWW, you buy a DLC and now you can play as wood elves, a completely different faction in both audiovisuals and gameplay, with their own completely unique campaign mechanics. Or you can play as vampire pirates with zombie gunners. Or you get a bunch of units and new lords with their own campaign mechanics for one of the factions you already like. This is much more appealing to general audiences who play the game, which is why they sold a boatload of DLC and kept making more. 3K sold gangbusters and did really well for them but they very clearly did not see the potential for the kind of long tail TWW2 had. They also did multiple huge completely free patches for TWW3 where they entirely overhauled and reworked a faction for no direct financial gain to themselves because they understood that bettering the game in general made people more likely to buy DLC. The Empire and Greenskin updates did coincide with new legendary lord packs, but you did not need to buy those packs to get the MASSIVE overhauls to those factions. The Vampire Count overhaul coincided with nothing to buy for vampire counts but they did it anyway. I don't believe that CA is going to cut and run for a second. They frequently make huge fuckups with new releases, but they also usually make herculean efforts to get the game into an acceptable state when they do. The Norsca Debacle is famous, but they spent 6 months of dev time and delayed their DLC plans(that actually make money) to unfuck things and get Norsca in the game. Kanos fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Mar 6, 2022 |
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Mar 6, 2022 20:45
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Angrymantium posted:As I've been mentioning, Legend has the point in there about how CA could stop supporting TWW3 the way they've abandoned several other recent titles. I really don't see a reason to CA the benefit of the doubt with assuming that they'll just fix all the bad things about the game that are out there now, since their recent behavior is a departure from their more hands on approach to TWW2. They don't have another game to sell after TWW3, and at some point fixing the bugs, unit collision issues, the infantry turn stuff that was pointed out in that Zerkovich video, etc is going to look like a bigger expense than they want to deal with since it likely won't be bundled with a DLC. The fact that they stopped supporting 3K after all the hype is a bad sign, I really don't see a reason to believe that they've learned the lessons they need to fix the current game if they somehow didn't learn that from TWW2.
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Mar 6, 2022 20:57
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Twigand Berries posted:the forest has been quiet as of late.... Historically accurate 
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Mar 6, 2022 20:57
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Angrymantium posted:Legend has the point in there about how CA could stop supporting TWW3 the way they've abandoned several other recent titles Legend is ridiculously close to throwing a tantrum with declarations like that. Maybe 3-4 digits in hours with TWWH3 made him think that streaming isn't the career for him but that's needless conjecture about his personal life. Him giving the doomsayers a pillar to rally around isn't personal though and the tone of hysteria is getting utterly bizarre. 3 Kingdoms was "abandoned" after six DLCs. Yes there was room in the setting for more. Yes they did in fact abandon 3K and cut things off sooner than expected. But I find the TW fanbase to be rather insufferable with how they can receive 2-4 times as much content as any other fanbase and declare that they're starving. Troy has 3 DLCs and the last was in December. I'm still impressed CA made Chaos into 4 and 1/2 unique and interesting factions when several other AAA developers handling the same license would have updated WoC to "tolerable" and given you four pools of elites to pick from. There is not an easily or sensibly predicted outcome where CA abandons WH3(and if they do I'll eat a lot of crow here) because it is guaranteed profitability in an industry addicted to such. GW is directly using it to market and maintain hype for future projects in Old World and likely AoS/40K titles. The path to successful DLC is so ridiculously easy and proven that they'd have to be literally insane or subject to outside interference to stop it. Give every WH3 faction 1-3+ additional LLs and units in DLC. Patch gaps in a few old rosters like Norsca and Vampire Counts. Release Chorfs and Nagash/Dogs/Your Curveball Dream Pick Here. In the videogame industry how many companies could turn down 3-5 years, easily, of guaranteed work that keeps the company in the black? What would stop CA here? GW pulling the license? Office burns down? Covid-20 rips through the ranks? Come on. At this rate we'll be calling CA cowards in 2026 because they end DLC plans for WH3 but they didn't give us all 9 Dragon Siblings and Slambo and Ind. Criticize the game all you want but can we stick to things that actually happen? I'm still fond of my freak rants about major game stopping bugs and Tzeentch settlement transferring. My head has cooled since then and watching the fanbase go literally insane with doomsaying has done a lot to sober me up. An 8/10 game had a rough launch. It is 99% guaranteed to recover. I swear to God that critical analysis or compulsive pessimism has done something to drive so many fanbases off the deep end in the last ten years.
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Mar 6, 2022 21:07
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Guts out boys
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Mar 6, 2022 21:12
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thats too many
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Mar 6, 2022 21:16
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I've enjoyed Legend's stuff but he's always been a nerdy spaz, CA isn't gonna drop this anytime soon. I don't even think they need to 'fix' the awful chaos campaign. Once IE drops everyone who doesn't like it will just play that, the same they did in WH2.
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Mar 6, 2022 21:31
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| # ? Jun 3, 2024 09:41 |
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Shumagorath posted:What was wrong with Norsca in WH2? I didn't finish the campaign but they seemed fine. Due to bad parallel development, it took them a long time to add them to warhammer 2 since they had to modify everything. They were developed for game 1 and couldn't easily port to game 2. Them having limited cities is just fine though, it is a different playstyle. They also got neglected after the move to change basic infantry to the major town settlement building. Since they had norscan large, norscan small, elven ruins, coastal towns, and a version for every enemy capital, you got in strange situations where they could recruit marauder champions but not basic spearmen. This took about 2-3 years to fix and still isn't fully fixed.
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Mar 6, 2022 21:32
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