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StashAugustine posted:yeah like ds9 occasionally gestures at trying to deal with it, like the idea that the federation has manged to construct an ideal society but they're constantly under threat of losing it, but even they're not quite good enough to consistently pull it off Even then, DS9 is really only at its best with it when it's pointing out that now the Federation basically has the most facile understanding possible of what it's like to live outside that ideal society; Sisko's "it's easy to be a saint in paradise" line when trying to explain the Maquis, for example.
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Mar 6, 2022 15:45
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That argument really falls short against the Maquis, a group of hardship tourists who intentionally got themselves into an unwinnable war because like, did you taste these organic tomatos I grew in the dirt? This is REAL man, not your fake conformist 'society' bro Humanity struggled and clawed for tens of thousands of years to get to where it was by DS9, and then Sisko turns around and goes "but actually, maybe a good and just and safe society is a little too good, hmm?" Okay then, let's talk about facile understandings of an ideal society. McSpanky fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Mar 6, 2022 |
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Mar 6, 2022 16:47
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There should be a clandestine organization that creates solvable problems for the Federation so that they never lose their utopic edge through complacency.
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Mar 6, 2022 17:31
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Khanstant posted:There should be a clandestine organization that creates solvable problems for the Federation so that they never lose their utopic edge through complacency. "We need a bunch of crisis actors to pretend to sacrifice their children to a computer they worship so some captain can come along and feel like he's big dickin the galaxy by unplugging the computer."
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Mar 6, 2022 18:24
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Section 32. Where all the competent people from Section 31 get put. "To boldly go and start poo poo for others to clean up."
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Mar 6, 2022 18:29
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McSpanky posted:That argument really falls short against the Maquis, a group of hardship tourists who intentionally got themselves into an unwinnable war because like, did you taste these organic tomatos I grew in the dirt? This is REAL man, not your fake conformist 'society' bro The origins of the Maquis made sense and were much more relatable, where basically their planets/colonies were being used as bartering chips to avoid war with Cardassia. Which was pretty much definitely worth it, but it was a good way of showing that dilemma where doing something for the greater good can accidentally disenfranchise a whole society that never really gets to reap the benefits. Of course, the writers kind of fell into their usual trap where any alternative to the Federation's default technological utopia is "I guess they're like, farmers or something?" And it just became a whole society of people saying "pasture-raised" over and over again
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Mar 6, 2022 19:49
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It's important to remember that in Star Trek, everywhere is California.
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Mar 6, 2022 20:04
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Sir Lemming posted:The origins of the Maquis made sense and were much more relatable, where basically their planets/colonies were being used as bartering chips to avoid war with Cardassia. Which was pretty much definitely worth it, but it was a good way of showing that dilemma where doing something for the greater good can accidentally disenfranchise a whole society that never really gets to reap the benefits. Of course, the writers kind of fell into their usual trap where any alternative to the Federation's default technological utopia is "I guess they're like, farmers or something?" And it just became a whole society of people saying "pasture-raised" over and over again Also consider you can just move to a different planet.
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Mar 6, 2022 20:05
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McSpanky posted:That argument really falls short against the Maquis, a group of hardship tourists who intentionally got themselves into an unwinnable war because like, did you taste these organic tomatos I grew in the dirt? This is REAL man, not your fake conformist 'society' bro I feel like that's another very understandable motivation that gets blurred and ruined by the Federation's supposed utopia, because having to leave your home where you have ties and become a refugee, even without early 90s interpretations of native american mysticism, and it also sucks to be under Cardassian dominion, so why not rebel even after the Federation pulls out? Like you wouldn't tell Bajorans to just leave their planet behind. There was also some kind of characterization of the Maquis in TNG having a lot of Bajorans who lived on their own offworld colonies that DS9 just forgets about (RIP Ro Laren). What I don't get is why the Maquis is still supposed to be the Federation's problem to clean up after they ceded the territory. That's what sovereignty is supposed to mean! The Cardassian Union wanted those planets and won a war against the Federation to get them, the terrorists that they foster with their fascist rule should be Cardassia's problem.
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Mar 6, 2022 20:10
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maybe it's just that on a galactic stage you can't just be like "oh uh those humans are just like, nothin to do with us man, gently caress em." In space nobody cares about your planetary divides, you're all homo sapiens and everyone knows HS belong to the Federation. Looks bad when rogue humans are out there doing terrorism. The fact that maquis were terrorising federation stuff too I think is really why though.
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Mar 6, 2022 20:52
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mossyfisk posted:They're taxed in prestige. Picard is legally required to host a weekly podcast spotlighting underappreciated Federation citizens. *Picard's voice over royalty free lo-fi beats* ...use the promo code MAKEITSO at checkout to receive free shipping and 10% off your first order of BlueChew. And now, back to Simon Tarses...
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Mar 6, 2022 21:20
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 S5-2: Darmok TNG does Arena in their own way. A fun turnaround because this time it's the Enterprise guys assuming the worst, while the aliens attempt friendship. And it's emblematic of TNG that what at first appears to be a battle turns into an attempt to find mutual understanding. Obviously one of the best episodes of TNG. It's cool how, on rewatches, the alien language starts to make more sense – referring to a river in winter to mean “closed, quiet, discussion over”, for instance. It did make me wonder how, in a culture whose language is only cultural references, do they actually tell the stories those are based on? I suppose they might act them out for each other, occasionally dropping names of people and places. The monster they have to fight is a bit disappointing, being some camouflaged lizardman. I think the scenes where they fight it could've been considerably more tense had they taken place at night, and instead of camouflaging, the creature just strikes out of the darkness. Also the first appearance of the captain's jacket. I know some people liked it, but I always thought it kind of looked like poo poo. The suede red and ribbed rubber shoulders make it look like an inaccurate knock-off of the actual uniform, and the way it just hangs open always makes him look like a slob. Weirdly, I do like the grayish version of the uniform he wears under it. The later version, where the shoulders are also suede and it buttons up at the bottom, isn't any better.  S5-3: Ensign Ro On my rewatch, I was surprised to see Ensign Ro come up as early as the start of season 5. In my memory, she came in in the last season or something. It's good to see a new character shake up the cast a bit, though I'm glad by the end of the episode she and Picard are already warming up to each other. I don't think we ever find out what exactly happened on the away mission that got her thrown in prison, which doesn't make me feel very sympathetic to guys like Riker and Geordi going all “ooh she's such a piece of poo poo!” And I find it very unbelievable that a diplomat like Picard would not know Bajorans traditionally put their family name before their birth name. For one, Picard himself mentions there's several Bajorans serving in Starfleet, for another, there's a bunch of cultures on Earth that do that, fucker! I'm really glad Ro stuck around, but wish they could've explored more of her past. And I would've liked to see the alternate universe DS9 where Michelle Forbes would've wanted to reprise the role.  S5-5: Disaster I skipped this episode on an earlier rewatch and am finding that nearly every episode I skipped (mostly Wesley- or Lwaxana-centric) I still enjoy if I give it a chance. Disaster's no different. Some space business rocks the Enterprise's socks at an inconvenient time – Picard gets trapped in a turbolift with three kids, and Troi is somehow in charge of the bridge. Elsewhere, Crusher and Geordi, Worf, and Riker and Data have their own little miniplots. A very busy episode really, but it's all done quite well. I initially skipped this one because Picard's discomfort with kids is cringeworthy, and 90s kid acting is hard to watch, but this seems basically the definitive episode where he overcomes it, which is very cute. The girl actress is pretty good, and I find that my tolerance for the kid stuff is significantly higher now. My main reason for giving this episode another shot was realizing it had Worf's delivery of Keiko's baby in it, which is a really funny part. I feel like what the episode is going for with Troi having to overcome self-doubt in order to take command over a squabbling O'Brien and Ro doesn't really work. First of all, I'm reeling over the fact that she somehow has Lt. Commander rank – come to think of it, I didn't even think she went to the academy, I just figured she was sort of hired. But having self-doubt when you have no clue what you're doing is kind of healthy, and a sign that you should probably pass the decision-making onto someone more capable, like O'Brien or Ro. It's kind of painful watching them explain to her what, to them, is basic engineering and science stuff. All the other stuff in the episode is great, like Data taking a huge shock and telling Riker to remove his head. Sidenote, while I realize neither Keiko nor O'Brien were main cast on TNG, it's weird that Miles's child gets born under somewhat harrowing circumstances and they don't bother showing even a brief shot of them reunited at the end, or maybe O'Brien thanking Worf.
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Mar 6, 2022 21:45
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I loving hate that jacket and it’s stupid bulbous rubber shoulder pads and will be hearing no arguments on this subject.
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Mar 6, 2022 21:48
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We never do find out what happened on Ro's away mission except she disobeyed orders and got her whole team killed as a result.
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Mar 6, 2022 21:52
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davidspackage posted:Sidenote, while I realize neither Keiko nor O'Brien were main cast on TNG, it's weird that Miles's child gets born under somewhat harrowing circumstances and they don't bother showing even a brief shot of them reunited at the end, or maybe O'Brien thanking Worf. It does however, get a fantastic callback in DS9.
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Mar 6, 2022 21:59
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Kibayasu posted:I loving hate that jacket and it’s stupid bulbous rubber shoulder pads and will be hearing no arguments on this subject. The jacket is awesome, sorry. Also it lets me know I’m watching a season 5 episode. Also, I love how there’s some kind of visual cue that’s indicative of what season an episode is from, minus listening to the stardate. Usually it’s a combination of uniforms and Riker or Worf’s hair and beard situation.
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Mar 6, 2022 22:03
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The jacket feels like it should come with a captain's dirt bike.
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Mar 6, 2022 22:09
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It's so weird every time he wears it to greet an official beaming onboard. Like he's wearing an old hoodie.
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Mar 6, 2022 22:12
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davidspackage posted:
One: Darmok's people had legitimate trouble communicating and the Universal Translator wasn't kicking in, so they were deliberately doing it this way to hope the Federation would figure it out. They may have also had issues figuring out the feds. Two: Basically the above but they were doing it as a deliberate "teach our large neighbors something." The fact that it might have gotten the entire team on the ship killed-- well, maybe they were like Greenpeace or something, they were willing to take that risk. A third: They communicate the foundational stories in some strange way which is very difficult to understand, or hard to translate, like vast murals or species-specific touch telepathy. The latter makes a lot of sense to me because it would explain why their spoken language is all allusions: they have a deep-set common reference and can have detailed conversations when in physical contact, but they're being very efficient when transmitting statements aloud.
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Mar 6, 2022 22:19
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IShallRiseAgain posted:The issue is that Star Trek's post scarcity society makes ALL economic systems obsolete. Economies are a resource management system, when everyone can live comfortably with basically no effort, the old rules don't apply. Its less sharing of resources, and more everybody has more resources than they know what to do with. SlothfulCobra posted:Kinda makes most plots obsolete. The Culture novels are entirely about how a utopian post-scarcity society interacts with other civilisations at varying levels of technological and ethical development. They've basically thrown away the Prime Directive and consider it their moral duty to encourage less advanced civilisations towards their own ideal, but as subtly as possible. Plot arises when they either gently caress up, they run into something completely outside their context, and/or brush up against an equiv-tech civ with different goals and ideals. It's doable, but it's not really what Star Trek is about.
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Mar 6, 2022 22:47
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Khanstant posted:maybe it's just that on a galactic stage you can't just be like "oh uh those humans are just like, nothin to do with us man, gently caress em." In space nobody cares about your planetary divides, you're all homo sapiens and everyone knows HS belong to the Federation. Looks bad when rogue humans are out there doing terrorism. Well yeah, the main problem is that attitude was the reason why George Takei grew up in an internment camp. Star Trek sorta tries to depict some kind of multiculturalism on the main ship, but it's seldom they go places that aren't mostly a monoculture. Probably for cost reasons. Kibayasu posted:I loving hate that jacket and it’s stupid bulbous rubber shoulder pads and will be hearing no arguments on this subject. Patrick Stewart's spine liked it. Although it does kinda clash with Trek's normal aesthetics. Partially because it kinda looks like the pleated sleeves that Star Wars featured a bunch. https://poetryincostume.com/2017/04/10/countdown-to-celebration-space-racing-stripes/
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Mar 6, 2022 22:50
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I think it's weird that Trek fans complain about the monoculture thing, but then also complain when the races don't act like they're "supposed" to. I get that it's not always the same fans, but come on.
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Mar 6, 2022 23:04
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I was reading about the Star Wars Galactic Starcruiser hotel at Disney World and it struck me that with 5 Trek series in production right now, with probably more incoming, they could definitely do things like the Vegas Experience again soon.
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Mar 6, 2022 23:50
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Khanstant posted:maybe it's just that on a galactic stage you can't just be like "oh uh those humans are just like, nothin to do with us man, gently caress em." In space nobody cares about your planetary divides, you're all homo sapiens and everyone knows HS belong to the Federation. Looks bad when rogue humans are out there doing terrorism. I figured it was something like that while the planets were ceded to the Cardassians, the humans and other federation people retained their Federation citizenship, like they were given official resident alien status. Like they were free to leave the DMZ anytime but as long as they were there, the Federation had no jurisdiction unless the Cardies wanted the feds there.
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Mar 6, 2022 23:53
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The_Doctor posted:I was reading about the Star Wars Galactic Starcruiser hotel at Disney World and it struck me that with 5 Trek series in production right now, with probably more incoming, they could definitely do things like the Vegas Experience again soon.
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Mar 7, 2022 00:34
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The_Doctor posted:I was reading about the Star Wars Galactic Starcruiser hotel at Disney World and it struck me that with 5 Trek series in production right now, with probably more incoming, they could definitely do things like the Vegas Experience again soon. being in a confined space with a bunch of trekkies is a dubious proposition under normal circumstances even if it means being able to get hammered at Quark's bar, but now?
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Mar 7, 2022 00:40
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Too bad Paramount Parks was sold off to Cedar Fair in 2006 and the licensing agreement that allowed Cedar Fair to use Star Trek terminated in 2009 (oof on that timing). I don't know that Paramount has any sort of ownership anymore that would be suitable for a licensed experience.
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Mar 7, 2022 00:55
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I would also accept the flame walled bar from Disco.
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Mar 7, 2022 00:58
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No Dignity posted:I don't buy that at all, we're really living in a post-scarcity era now but people still die of starvation because it makes more economic 'sense' to literally destroy massive quantities of food than give it to those who need it. 90s Trek's position that humanity just needs to get its tech level to a high enough level and the problems will largely resolve themselves has always been one of its greatest shortcomings imo That's not really specific to 90s Trek though, that was something that Gene Roddenberry pushed from the very beginning. TOS also says that war and poverty have been eliminated from Earth. I'm willing to agree that there's more to an equitable society than just having enough stuff, but Earth (and the Federation at large) being a substantially more just and egalitarian society than the one we live in today is - in my opinion - an absolute and non-negotiable cornerstone of Star Trek as a setting. It can still be flawed but it should be an unarguably better place than modern-day Earth.
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Mar 7, 2022 01:17
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The_Doctor posted:I was reading about the Star Wars Galactic Starcruiser hotel at Disney World and it struck me that with 5 Trek series in production right now, with probably more incoming, they could definitely do things like the Vegas Experience again soon. idk, even with 5 shows in production at the moment I really don’t think modern Trek will ever match the same level of cultural ubiquity it had in the 90s. The sheer number of people in the US who watched TNG (or even DS9!) each week probably dwarfs the number of streaming eyeballs Disco, Picard, Prodigy, and Lower Decks have all had combined. The Vegas thing was also such a weird confluence of Trek’s popularity and Vegas’ push to be a family-friendly destination that I can’t imagine where a new Experience would even be built.
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Mar 7, 2022 01:27
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The Maquis is basically like if Britain said "You know what, gently caress it, you can have La Islas Malvinas," to Argentina and then most people who lived on the Falklands just shipped themselves off to the UK while a few of them stayed behind operating speedboats out of hidden coves to attack Argentinean ships.
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Mar 7, 2022 01:56
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:That's not really specific to 90s Trek though, that was something that Gene Roddenberry pushed from the very beginning. TOS also says that war and poverty have been eliminated from Earth. The economic worldview of TOS in so far as it has one is that Earth has relative peace and abundance, but that Earth’s space colonies are often full of trouble and want, and that this is a problem that the ship is often responsible for dealing with. Think of how many episodes Kirk is stuck ferrying commissioners or diplomats or medicine for some plague, or how many times they’re sent to investigate some shithouse in the back of beyond where everyone simply died and there was no help for them. There are dark hints that things were even worse in the recent past, like Kirk’s childhood brush with genocide.
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Mar 7, 2022 02:22
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SlothfulCobra posted:What I don't get is why the Maquis is still supposed to be the Federation's problem to clean up after they ceded the territory. That's what sovereignty is supposed to mean! The Cardassian Union wanted those planets and won a war against the Federation to get them, the terrorists that they foster with their fascist rule should be Cardassia's problem. Given that there were Starfleet officers defecting to the Maquis, politically the Federation had to do something to demonstrate that they weren't actively backing rebels in Cardassian space, otherwise it'd start to look like the Donbas situation.
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Mar 7, 2022 03:40
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Megillah Gorilla posted:Section 32. Where all the competent people from Section 31 get put. I look forward to seeing Mariner's recruitment to this next season of Lower Decks.
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Mar 7, 2022 03:54
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Khanstant posted:There should be a clandestine organization that creates solvable problems for the Federation so that they never lose their utopic edge through complacency. Owlbear Camus posted:"We need a bunch of crisis actors to pretend to sacrifice their children to a computer they worship so some captain can come along and feel like he's big dickin the galaxy by unplugging the computer." This premise seems tailor made for Lower Decks.
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Mar 7, 2022 05:10
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No Dignity posted:I don't buy that at all, we're really living in a post-scarcity era now but people still die of starvation because it makes more economic 'sense' to literally destroy massive quantities of food than give it to those who need it. 90s Trek's position that humanity just needs to get its tech level to a high enough level and the problems will largely resolve themselves has always been one of its greatest shortcomings imo That's more of a fan reading. The show itself first implies, then later states outright that humanity had a moral / ideological awakening first.
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Mar 7, 2022 09:07
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Big Mean Jerk posted:idk, even with 5 shows in production at the moment I really don’t think modern Trek will ever match the same level of cultural ubiquity it had in the 90s. They had a chance to do this in the 90's and the head of Paramount nixed the idea.  http://www.warpedfactor.com/2014/10/star-trek-that-time-they-almost-put.html This article from 2014 shows how far along they got.
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Mar 7, 2022 09:11
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Penitent posted:They had a chance to do this in the 90's and the head of Paramount nixed the idea. The outcry--from hoteliers to casino owners to the city planning commission to citizens in general--over what that would have done to the Vegas skyline would have strangled that monstrosity while it was still in the crib even if Stanley Jaffe had signed off.
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Mar 7, 2022 09:25
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Timby posted:The outcry--from hoteliers to casino owners to the city planning commission to citizens in general--over what that would have done to the Vegas skyline would have strangled that monstrosity while it was still in the crib even if Stanley Jaffe had signed off.
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Mar 7, 2022 09:46
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Not even worth building if it doesn't have a holodeck that malfunctions, becomes self-aware, and starts causing trouble.
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