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Comrade Blyatlov posted:TA'VEREN!!!! This has me imagening Perrin in a psychologists office with the couch and all, in walks Aram and lies down. On the wall is Perrins diploma which just says "TA'VEREN!!!!" in large letters.
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Mar 7, 2022 14:07
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Nitrousoxide posted:Is it ever stated why the Seanchan Ogier gardeners don't suffer from the longing? It takes years to kick in. The Gardeners aren't da'covale like the human Deathwatch Guards, so presumably they're rotated to make sure they don't have the problem.
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Mar 7, 2022 15:37
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Yeah there's no indications that they don't have the same issue. The entire span of the series isn't looking enough for it to even kick in, afaik Loial has been out wandering around for 5 years before we meet him, and he's been fine. He takes a break in a stedding at some point off screen but it can't have been all that lengthy.
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Mar 7, 2022 15:41
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Gwaihir posted:Yeah there's no indications that they don't have the same issue. The entire span of the series isn't looking enough for it to even kick in, afaik Loial has been out wandering around for 5 years before we meet him, and he's been fine. He takes a break in a stedding at some point off screen but it can't have been all that lengthy. They explained it in the books somewhere, there were more stedding in Seanchan so they didn't have the same problems during the Breaking. The Longing came about when the ones in Randland couldn't find a stedding, but the Seanchan ones didn't have that problem. They might still need to go back from time to time, but it's not near as big a deal for them.
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Mar 7, 2022 15:56
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Perrin I feel is written as the most reliable narrator even though I assume Jordan didn't make him the exception. "slow and careful" but the climax of things like whitecloaks, or whitecloaks 2 galad bungaloo, are him just trying to kill himself. I guess we needed more external POVs seeing how depressed he is and quick to impulse whether anger or self immolation. The show for some reason thinks a fridge'd dead wife was needed to develop into an impulsive and violent dude when it's in us all, all along.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:08
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seaborgium posted:They explained it in the books somewhere, there were more stedding in Seanchan so they didn't have the same problems during the Breaking. The Longing came about when the ones in Randland couldn't find a stedding, but the Seanchan ones didn't have that problem. They might still need to go back from time to time, but it's not near as big a deal for them. aha, tmyk!
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Mar 7, 2022 16:15
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His Divine Shadow posted:I always thought that was a lovely thing. I mean they try and recruit people who do violence all the time, but if one of their own "falls off the wagon" even once, there's no way back for him. Why? This is one of the reasons why I like the show version better. Their whole ideology and belief structure seems more resilient and fully fleshed out
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Mar 7, 2022 16:32
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His Divine Shadow posted:I always thought that was a lovely thing. I mean they try and recruit people who do violence all the time, but if one of their own "falls off the wagon" even once, there's no way back for him. Why? One good thing the show did (maybe the only thing other than expand Moirane's role) was the Way of the Leaf convo Perrin had, where he was told that people who did violence had joined the caravan and the way of life. So Aram would have a way back, which makes alot more sense, since religion is all about forgiveness and transformation.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:42
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Nitrousoxide posted:Is it ever stated why the Seanchan Ogier gardeners don't suffer from the longing? The only thing they long for is the blood of the Empress’s enemies.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:55
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Democratic Pirate posted:The only thing they long for is the blood of the Empress’s enemies. They desire dead-ing not stedding
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Mar 7, 2022 19:35
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A major theme of the books is stories repeating and changing as they do. Which is why "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of patriots" became "the garden needs blood, all the time"
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Mar 7, 2022 19:46
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As the only exotic race in Randland that is not Shadowspawn; it always confounded me how the Ogier Gardeners could serve the Seanchan Empire. Every other indication from Loial to the various visits to steddings and the elders and poo poo gives the impression Ogier are predisposed to "goodness".
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Mar 7, 2022 20:36
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Shageletic posted:One good thing the show did (maybe the only thing other than expand Moirane's role) was the Way of the Leaf convo Perrin had, where he was told that people who did violence had joined the caravan and the way of life. So Aram would have a way back, which makes alot more sense, since religion is all about forgiveness and transformation. Gonna be awkward with the aiel flashbacks.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:45
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Hexel posted:As the only exotic race in Randland that is not Shadowspawn; it always confounded me how the Ogier Gardeners could serve the Seanchan Empire. they're literal transdimensional aliens some of whom considered loving off back to their dimension instead of fighting the dark one, they're not predisposed towards anything imo
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Mar 7, 2022 21:04
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His Divine Shadow posted:I always thought that was a lovely thing. I mean they try and recruit people who do violence all the time, but if one of their own "falls off the wagon" even once, there's no way back for him. Why? I don't think it is ever explained, but there is a certain self-righteousness to the Way Of The Leaf. Outsiders can be forgiven for their violence because they don't know any better, but those brought up within the Way already have the perfect enlightened teachings and don't have an excuse. I strongly suspect that the combat veteran who wrote the books was influenced (consciously or unconsciously) by a certain strain of peace activist from his own era.
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Mar 7, 2022 21:06
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Hexel posted:As the only exotic race in Randland that is not Shadowspawn; it always confounded me how the Ogier Gardeners could serve the Seanchan Empire. They're just people? The Seanchan Ogier developed a very different culture over the 3k years they were separated from the Randland ones and we only run into their members that signed up for a military conquest. Might as well ask why any humans serve the Seanchan Empire.
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Mar 7, 2022 21:11
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Gnoman posted:
Yeah, the show did a better job in my opinion in presenting the Way of the Leaf than Jordan did. The sense from the books is basically "man, hippies are great to hang out with, but man, that poo poo just doesn't work in the real world". Which is more sympathetic a representation than a lot of combat vets would give them.
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Mar 7, 2022 21:14
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, the show did a better job in my opinion in presenting the Way of the Leaf than Jordan did. When I think about Tinkers vs Trollocs, for some reason, I am always reminded of the movie Gandhi when he is asked whether someone like Hitler could be defeated with nonviolence. "Not without defeat and great pain." Or most of your friends getting eaten, in the case of Trollocs.
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Mar 7, 2022 21:23
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, the show did a better job in my opinion in presenting the Way of the Leaf than Jordan did. Even then I'd argue the Way of the Leaf is presented as something to aspire towards rather than something to be derisive toward. We see a lot of scenes of the Travelling People showing incredible courage and bravery and the only modern character who explicitly turns from their path has one of the harshest falls in the series.
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Mar 7, 2022 21:31
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Zore posted:Even then I'd argue the Way of the Leaf is presented as something to aspire towards rather than something to be derisive toward. We see a lot of scenes of the Travelling People showing incredible courage and bravery and the only modern character who explicitly turns from their path has one of the harshest falls in the series. Yeah, Perrin has a lot of moments where he thinks that the Way of the Leaf would be nice if everyone followed it, but it's simply not realistic. It's against human nature not to defend yourself and loved ones with force
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Mar 7, 2022 23:44
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Zore posted:They're just people? The Seanchan Ogier developed a very different culture over the 3k years they were separated from the Randland ones and we only run into their members that signed up for a military conquest. Might as well ask why any humans serve the Seanchan Empire. Loial’s interaction with the Green Man seemed to indicate they had some ancient, pre-Breaking history together. Perhaps I’m muddling Ogier sense of honor and morality with the Nym. Where is this business about Ogier being interdimensional travelers found? Is that a portal stone thing or from the companion book?
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Mar 8, 2022 00:04
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Hexel posted:Where is this business about Ogier being interdimensional travelers found? Is that a portal stone thing or from the companion book? It's in the text. The Great Stump was a discussion between the entire group as to whether they were going to teleport off Randland for an Age or two, like they had done before. It's not clear whether they're dimensional or interplanetary travellers. Their means of travel was the Book of Translation. Loial successfully argued in favor of staying.
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Mar 8, 2022 00:12
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Hexel posted:Where is this business about Ogier being interdimensional travelers found? Is that a portal stone thing or from the companion book? It's in the final 3 books when they're discussion opening the book of traveling to leave the planet and go somewhere else.
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Mar 8, 2022 00:20
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Hexel posted:As the only exotic race in Randland that is not Shadowspawn; it always confounded me how the Ogier Gardeners could serve the Seanchan Empire. Randland had the Trolloc Wars a thousand years after the Breaking, which unified the individual Aes Sedai into an institution that tried to keep things peaceful. Seanchan only had a few trollocs invade, so the Aes Sedai remained splintered, self-interested, and without the norm of "don't kill people with the Power." And then 2000 years later, Randland had Hawkwing, who fought a big war that lasted his lifetime but then ended when he did. Seanchan had Hawkwing's kid, who spent the next few hundred years engaged in conquest. So basically Seanchan's history is much more violent over a sustained period of time compared to Randland's. And since there were more steddings in Seanchan, the Ogier found them more quickly than Randland and so the Longing was a lot less. So the Ogier would have been more able to go out and interact with humans and their culture would have intertwined with human cultures a lot more. Because of all the violence the humans develop in a more militaristic direction, and hence so do the Ogier.
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Mar 8, 2022 08:05
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The visions in TSR chapter 26 of the The Song of Growing which was sang during a special event called Seed Singing during the Age of Legends to help plants grow fast and healthy led me to believe that Ogier are predisposed to "goodness" and the Ogier Gardeners are an aberration. Da'shain Aiel sang the Song with Ogier together. The threads of the songs were braided together and the Nym wove them into the soil and seeds with their dance using the One Power. It is stated in The Wheel of Time Companion book that Ogier Treesingers sing the Songs of Growing. They also sing those Treesongs when they make sung wood. I suppose it's entirely plausible different environments like Seanchan vs. Randland would produce dramatically different peoples. The Aiel used to be drastically different in their cultural disposition but the historical trauma of the post breaking years and abandoning the Way of the Leaf bear that out.
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Mar 8, 2022 13:58
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Hexel posted:The visions in TSR chapter 26 of the The Song of Growing which was sang during a special event called Seed Singing during the Age of Legends to help plants grow fast and healthy led me to believe that Ogier are predisposed to "goodness" and the Ogier Gardeners are an aberration. "Goodness" is not necessarily non-violence though. Loial describes killing Trollocs as cutting noxious weeds that will kill a whole crop and was extremely violent when needed. If Hawkwing or one of his descendants had convinced the Ogier that he was trying to grow a peaceful place but needed to conquer to do so I could easily see them following along.
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Mar 8, 2022 15:46
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I've always assumed, admittedly without much evidence, that it was a hostage scenario. Once Hawkwing's descendants won and formed the Seanchan Empire as we know it, they went around to the various Steddings and said "hey, tithe us a percentage of your people as our Gardeners or we'll burn the whole place to the ground with you in it." So I figure the various Gardeners we see are volunteers who've chosen to fight for the Empire in order to protect the Steddings and the rest of their people. It fits what we know of Ogier psychology, since even the Randland Ogier only fight in armies to defend themselves or the Steddings. That said, it does bring up something I wish had been made a bigger deal of in AMoL....the Ogier marching to war. After all Loial does to keep the Ogier from bailing out and to help fight instead, the Ogier army never has the payoff on the battlefield that they kind of deserve. I mean they're there and they contribute, but I wanted a "Riders of Rohan at the Fields of Pellanor" from LotR or "The Klingons arrive to save the day" from DS9's A Sacrifice of Angels moment, and we never really got it. 
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Mar 8, 2022 16:54
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The Ents sacking Isengard would be a direct parallel, since Ogier basically serve the same narrative role Large, powerful, slow to act and anger, long-winded, but terrifying juggernauts when roused
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Mar 8, 2022 20:11
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I’m halfway through CoT and it just occurred to me: Rand cleansed saidin what must be days or weeks ago and Grady and Neald don’t have a single comment about it. To themselves or Perrin or anybody 
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Mar 9, 2022 01:57
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Hexel posted:I’m halfway through CoT and it just occurred to me: Rand cleansed saidin what must be days or weeks ago and Grady and Neald don’t have a single comment about it. To themselves or Perrin or anybody From what I remember, they discussed it among themselves, but weren't sure if it was real or the taint was making them imagine it. They also didn't tell anyone because they would have sounded insane since they didn't know Rand did it, just that there was a huge loving amount of Saidin used on the other side of the continent and then suddenly they both stopped feeling the taint. Oh, and they were the only 2 people there who saw the giant pillar of Saidin Makes sense why they kinda held back a little
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Mar 9, 2022 02:21
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Given how other Ashaman who did know what happened reacted, they were probably pretty stunned as well.
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Mar 9, 2022 02:33
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I guess I spoke too soon. Rand starts the cleansing right as Perrin and Co. are spying on Malden “Sight and hearing, the world around, crashed in on him. “. . . it’s madness,” Grady was saying in worried tones. “Nobody can handle enough of saidin for me to feel that far off! Nobody!”
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Mar 9, 2022 02:55
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Small scenes like that show me how COT could have worked well. It’s just…the other plots aren’t doing anything/we’re already resolved in Winters Heart
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Mar 9, 2022 06:08
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Ungratek posted:Small scenes like that show me how COT could have worked well. It’s just…the other plots aren’t doing anything/we’re already resolved in Winters Heart The full context is even more striking. Up until now, casually thinking of Rand or Mat would do the annoying rainbow in the mind, then this happens mid convo: “The colors erupted inside Perrin’s head, an explosion of hues so strong that sight and hearing vanished. All sight except for the colors themselves, at least. They were a vast tide, as if all the times he had pushed them out of his head had built a dam that they now smashed aside in a silent flood, swirling in soundless whirlpools that tried to suck him under. An image coalesced in the middle of it, Rand and Nynaeve sitting on the ground facing one another, as clear as if they were right in front of him.” The metaphysics are odd and ultimately disposable since the rainbows in the mind don’t do much except give the reader anchor points for major plotlines that happen simultaneously 
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Mar 9, 2022 15:17
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And let Nynaeve find out where Perrin is so Cadsuane can try to dad-snap Rand out of his blackness.
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Mar 9, 2022 15:29
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Hexel posted:The full context is even more striking. Up until now, casually thinking of Rand or Mat would do the annoying rainbow in the mind, then this happens mid convo: And provide comic relief when Mat keeps seeing Rand and Min going at it
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Mar 9, 2022 21:25
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https://winteriscoming.net/2022/03/09/reacher-eclipses-the-wheel-of-time-amazon-most-watched-series/ Welp. Reacher isn't even good.
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Mar 9, 2022 23:25
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rocketrobot posted:https://winteriscoming.net/2022/03/09/reacher-eclipses-the-wheel-of-time-amazon-most-watched-series/ Different math I think. That's premier numbers and reacher dropped everything at once.
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Mar 9, 2022 23:38
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Different math I think. That's premier numbers and reacher dropped everything at once. Yeah, WoT has more of people talking about it with the release schedule. Gives it a chance to build up a lot of hype and get it more into peoples minds.
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Mar 10, 2022 00:38
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What’s the deal with the mystical reverence the Aiel have for blacksmiths? That’s never explained in the books is it. Perrin could’ve leveraged that for a bit more respect from his cadre of wise ones I think 
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Mar 10, 2022 00:51
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