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evilweasel posted:there's no way russia would install him. not because ukraine hates him (that's a bonus) but precisely because he fled and collapsed their efforts to control ukraine instead of holding out and asking for aid. they want someone who is, well, not going to do that the instant the going gets tough because it's definitely going to get tough for an attempted russian puppet government I can't even fathom how bad of a deal it would be to be installed as a Russian puppet in Ukraine after this war. You'd never see a window without thinking about the thousands of snipers planning to kill you. I'd ask Putin what the russian policy is on working remotely.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:13
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Crimea's annexation polling effort post, redux. Thanks for the comprehensive response, I appreciate it. There was some discussion earlier about the religious dimension to the war. I knew there was a split in the Orthodox church in 2018-2019 when the Ukrainian church became autocephalous, but I didn't know that the churches in Ukraine still under the Moscow patriarchate have split with Moscow. quote:Patriarch Kirill’s fealty to and dependence on the Vladimir Putin has resulted in his unwillingness to stand up for his flock in Ukraine. The word ‘war’ has not entered his official statements on the conflict. Way to mend religious divisions in Ukraine, Putin!
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Mar 7, 2022 16:13
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Trump posted:Stop with the bad takes and talking out your rear end. There should not be an opt out for anyone on anything in the EU, except the Euro. The fact that Denmark can be in nato but not have any defense obligations to the union itself is a disgrace. It is exactly the sort of US dependancy that the EU needs to be free of.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:13
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Dante posted:I can't even fathom how bad of a deal it would be to be installed as a Russian puppet in Ukraine after this war. You'd never see a window without thinking about the thousands of snipers planning to kill you. You'd be just like Putin!
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Mar 7, 2022 16:13
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:There should not be an opt out for anyone on anything in the EU, except the Euro. I misread. Deal with it is my answer 
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Mar 7, 2022 16:14
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Hidingo Kojimba posted:Whether or not a Danegeld is worthwhile depends on whether you think you will use the time it affords you better than the vikings. So I guess the calculation here is whether or not, if they pay off Putin to not invade for a few years, they can build up their armed forces to the point Russia will be unable to invade again. Considering Russia is demanding control of the government (installing a Russian puppet to be the new head of state Prime Minister) I suspect the idea is that they'll try to keep Ukraine from building up from nothing (since they are to be disarmed fully before any of this is accepted!) while Russia sets up another invasion force to get the "steamrolling" that they were wanting.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:14
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Kchama posted:Russia's current offers have been and have always been "roll over and die" and have not been interested in negotiating one bit so it doesn't really make any sense to go "OH TAKE THE OFFER NOW". No it hasn't and you know it. Cenodoxus posted:It's easy to be an internet keyboard warrior calling for appeasement when you're not the target of violent annexation by a repressive autocracy. Which is why they already have had 2 rounds of negotiations? This is life in International politics. Might makes right and the West definitely let you down once before by dangling the NATO carrot they were never going to give you. Maybe now is the time strike a deal before Western appetites for continued confrontation with Russia wanes and you get hosed again with a backroom deal. That is all on Zelensky to decide.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:14
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:The fact that Denmark can be in nato but not have any defense obligations to the union itself is a disgrace. We'll be voting about removing that exemption in a few months time.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:15
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Failed Imagineer posted:In related news, Ireland just invaded Russian soil Unfortunately he got detained before he could unload the Guinness diarrhoea that he was holding in from last night. 
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Mar 7, 2022 16:15
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https://twitter.com/loogunda/status/1500845414446206984?s=20&t=SuIqWROcbQBlkFFgDsjisw Some cool WW 1 poo poo
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Mar 7, 2022 16:15
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Dante posted:I can't even fathom how bad of a deal it would be to be installed as a Russian puppet in Ukraine after this war. You'd never see a window without thinking about the thousands of snipers planning to kill you. 2014 was also the second time Yanukovych was turfed through protests. He wouldn't last a month without a permanent Russian occupation.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:16
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Charlotte Hornets posted:https://twitter.com/loogunda/status/1500845414446206984?s=20&t=SuIqWROcbQBlkFFgDsjisw As "Well There's Your Problem" covered well, Armored Trains are death traps, almost even moreso than tanks.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:17
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MikeC posted:No it hasn't and you know it. yes it has. all russian "offers" have included "denazification" (replace your current government with one of our choosing) and "demilitiarization" (give up literally anything that would stop us from re-invading) that's not a peace offer, that's a surrender demand
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Mar 7, 2022 16:18
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Trump posted:EU and NATO are two different things, you know that right? Read what I posted again. Yes, but that does not mean it is ok neglect the EU's collective security clauses. The EU has too many exceptions as it is, although alot of em are legacy stuff from the 1990's.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:18
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Really good on the ground reporting from Tim Mak of NPR during all of this. Every morning (US time) he posts a thread with bits of local information and stories from his day. He's also good about opsec which is an issue with some reporters. It's very grounded and I enjoy it. Pro follow for this imo https://twitter.com/timkmak/status/1500819143997726720?t=ANESwDchch_YWKkCIWvOwQ&s=19
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Mar 7, 2022 16:18
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MikeC posted:No it hasn't and you know it. The only thing we've heard about the negotiations is that Russia has just repeated the same demands each time, which is why Ukraine has refused it. They're a non-starter because they are very clearly "Ukraine ceases". Sure, trust the country currently offering 'humanitarian corridors' that they promptly attack to wipe out the civilians trying to escape, or have laid traps to massacre the innocent that 'give us everything we want and we'll go away for a moment' will actually buy you even a moment. EDIT: And again "Everything we want" involves "We take control of your government and your military disarms".
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Mar 7, 2022 16:19
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KitConstantine posted:Armchair pacifist? This reminds me of Venezuela, where the government spent years (maybe they still are?) just not officially releasing the inflation rate and unemployment rate.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:20
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evilweasel posted:yes it has. all russian "offers" have included "denazification" (replace your current government with one of our choosing) and "demilitiarization" (give up literally anything that would stop us from re-invading) It's like some people simply can't grasp that Ukrainians don't see Russian domination as just an inconvenience that's not worth taking any risk to prevent, but an actual existential threat. Ukranians aren't fighting Russians to get in the cool EU kids club, they're doing it because they see surrender to Russia as having HORRIFYING consequences for them.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:20
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CommieGIR posted:As "Well There's Your Problem" covered well, Armored Trains are death traps, almost even moreso than tanks. what if we had a tank but its axes of maneuver were highly predictable
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Mar 7, 2022 16:22
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Kchama posted:Considering Russia is demanding control of the government (installing a Russian puppet to be the new head of state Prime Minister) I suspect the idea is that they'll try to keep Ukraine from building up from nothing (since they are to be disarmed fully before any of this is accepted!) while Russia sets up another invasion force to get the "steamrolling" that they were wanting. Definitely, and I suspect if/when Russia stop making dumbass demands about disarming is the point we’re actually likely to see a serious, for real ceasefire worked out.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:22
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sean10mm posted:It's like some people simply can't grasp that Ukrainians don't see Russian domination as just an inconvenience that's not worth taking any risk to prevent, but an actual existential threat. Ukranians aren't fighting Russians to get in the cool EU kids club, they're doing it because they see surrender to Russia as having HORRIFYING consequences for them. Absolutely, Russias demands are basically the kind of stuff that Austria Hungary sent to Serbia after Ferdinand was shot. It is not an offer that's meant to be accepted.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:22
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MikeC posted:No it hasn't and you know it. Right. Looking forward to Russia declaring Alaska as historically Russian and you hearing from everyone that your country shouldn't have traded with Russians in the first place. Also this, so very much: sean10mm posted:It's like some people simply can't grasp that Ukrainians don't see Russian domination as just an inconvenience that's not worth taking any risk to prevent, but an actual existential threat. Ukranians aren't fighting Russians to get in the cool EU kids club, they're doing it because they see surrender to Russia as having HORRIFYING consequences for them.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:23
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Torrannor posted:I don't understand this There’s a comedy website for watching Russian rouble exchange rate, which I joke that I worry about the stability of. https://zenrus.ru/
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Mar 7, 2022 16:23
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sean10mm posted:It's like some people simply can't grasp that Ukrainians don't see Russian domination as just an inconvenience that's not worth taking any risk to prevent, but an actual existential threat. Ukranians aren't fighting Russians to get in the cool EU kids club, they're doing it because they see surrender to Russia as having HORRIFYING consequences for them. Its this. Putin wants to basically destroy Ukrainian national identity, is already doing some REALLY loving dystopian stuff in captured areas like going door to door to arrest people on lists. They are fighting because Russia is going to do some terrible poo poo to Ukrainians.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:25
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William Bear posted:This reminds me of Venezuela, where the government spent years (maybe they still are?) just not officially releasing the inflation rate and unemployment rate. Funny enough they stopped doing that for a bit after China forced them to, but like 4 or so years later. Unsurprisingly, it doesn't help anything. It also doesn't help to hide the market exchange rate for your currency, all it does is lead to more distrust in state financial institutions. This is solely so that Putin doesn't have to talk about it because anybody bringing up economic metrics is now a collaborator to the economic war.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:28
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cinci zoo sniper posted:It’s really tiresome to see people repeatedly imply that Ukraine has no agency of its own. And tiresome to hear calls for accepting Russia's demand at the table when Russia earlier signed the Budapest Memo agreeing to refrain from use of force against Ukraine's sovereignty. Russia willingly signed a treaty promising not to invade. A loving treaty. Why then should the UKR negotiators not reject any and all offers by Russia that diminish their sovereignty? Honestly, the threat of Russia getting kicked out of the Security Council on that treaty violation alone should be added to UKR's talking points. "You don't leave, you're out."
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Mar 7, 2022 16:28
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https://twitter.com/StationCDRKelly/status/1500850816558592003 Astronaut Scott Kelly and the Russian space guy seem to be getting along well.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:29
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Trump posted:Stop with the bad takes and talking out your rear end. Nonetheless - despite being a founding member of NATO, Denmark has maintained a no-foreign-bases policy throughout, which (especially in the early stages of the Cold War) was explicitly defended as a way to avoid provoking the Soviets and emphasizing Denmark's membership as purely defensive, whilst still being very much a member of NATO otherwise (as you have pointed out). This is not even referring to the footnote period during détente (which also happened too) e.g. the Karup base was always led by a Danish general or admiral. A fig-leaf, sure, but it's there To be clear I think it fair to say that a compromise skewed this far due NATO would only be on the table if Ukraine scores some truly lopsided victories over the Russians in the next months before coming to terms; my point is to sketch the variety of actually-existing historic options available for this kind of compromise
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Mar 7, 2022 16:29
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:Absolutely, Russias demands are basically the kind of stuff that Austria Hungary sent to Serbia after Ferdinand was shot. It is not an offer that's meant to be accepted. It feels like Russia's army is being directed by the ghost of Conrad.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:29
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CommieGIR posted:Its this. Putin wants to basically destroy Ukrainian national identity, is already doing some REALLY loving dystopian stuff in captured areas like going door to door to arrest people on lists. Here's a currently-updating thread of Ukrainian protests in Russian occupied cities from just today. These people are under active threat from the Russian military in their city, protestors in Ukraine have started getting shot, and they're still out there. Ukraine doesn't want Russian rule https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1500794793525493762?t=2ov1lUg6mYqVVoBfAgKdzw&s=19 I skipped the first tweet because it's two Ukrainian guys pissing on a piece of Russian equipment. A good summary imo.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:29
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Dehry posted:https://twitter.com/StationCDRKelly/status/1500850816558592003 Rogozin doesn't seem very bright.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:29
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sean10mm posted:It's like some people simply can't grasp that Ukrainians don't see Russian domination as just an inconvenience that's not worth taking any risk to prevent, but an actual existential threat. Ukranians aren't fighting Russians to get in the cool EU kids club, they're doing it because they see surrender to Russia as having HORRIFYING consequences for them. Yep, the thing to keep in mind that this isn't some distant empire from across the oceans that you know will get bored and gently caress off eventually. If it were the Chinese trying to do a regime change, ok maybe. But these assholes are right next door and if you let them, they'll be bossing you around for centuries.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:30
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MikeC posted:Which is why they already have had 2 rounds of negotiations? https://twitter.com/kyivindependent/status/1500832884004831232?s=21 Yes, what fantastic terms we have here: 1. gently caress off 2. gently caress off forever 3. We keep what we already took 4. We take what we want now Oh yes, this will certainly satisfy Russia and they will definitely not be back in 5-10 years to “liberate” some more “separatists” MikeC posted:That is all on Zelensky to decide. It’s literally not
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Mar 7, 2022 16:31
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The most one sided negotiations ever, and we're supposed to act like Ukraine should just accept the absolutely one sided terms.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:33
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CommieGIR posted:Rogozin doesn't seem very bright. His main job qualification is being a nazi, but he is no Werner van Braun.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:34
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cinci zoo sniper posted:“Life” where they’re not allowed to make decisions for themselves versus the respective liberties. It’s really tiresome to see people repeatedly imply that Ukraine has no agency of its own. You are misreading what I am posting then. The very act of seeing if they can come out of this with what remains of their country intact and some semblance of autonomy requires agency on the Ukrainians. Cheerleading that the Ukrainians should fight to the last man on the Wests behalf so Putin is too busy to eye the Baltics which would require NATO to have real stones....that's something else.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:35
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I also love this very CSPAM idea that all slav nations are 100% nazi and also the same so all of them should just be left alone by the West and let the nature (read: Russia) take its course. It's really loving racist and isolationist against ex-Eastern Bloc countries to blame NATO for expanding its borders in the 90s and to blame other countries to want in on this nowadays. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 7, 2022 16:36
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MikeC posted:You are misreading what I am posting then. The very act of seeing if they can come out of this with what remains of their country intact and some semblance of autonomy requires agency on the Ukrainians. You are misreading what I am posting then. Russia should order troops home and stop the war.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:37
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MikeC posted:You are misreading what I am posting then. The very act of seeing if they can come out of this with what remains of their country intact and some semblance of autonomy requires agency on the Ukrainians. They’re not fighting on the West’s behalf they’re fighting for themselves. The fact that you can’t see that is all the proof anyone needs to ignore your bad posts.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:38
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MikeC posted:It is precisely the failure to dismantle NATO or integrate the new Russia into the pan-European security framework (ie taking their interests into account) that has led Putin down this path. If it is some regional alliance, why did it keep moving east? While Russia spans two continents, the majority of its population is clustered in Europe and it saw itself as a European nation. Yeltsin and Putin fully expected NATO to be dismantled after the USSR fell and a new security framework to be established. It didn't happen and NATO kept expanding eastward (even after promises made that it wouldn't). After the total failure NATO nations to take into account Russian interests in the Balkans and went ahead/allowed the creation of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the defacto independence of Kosvo, Putin made the hard turn away from any further attempts at integrating with Europe. MikeC posted:NATO and the US were a bunch of turds. They should have told Ukraine in 2014 that we were loving with you and you probably aren't going to get in since we don't actually want a military confrontation with Russia and that they should really start looking to make a deal with Putin. Instead, we keep dangling the carrot making the Ukrainians think they actually had a real choice to make, and then when the hammer comes down, we just watch and complain strongly when we knew from day 1 that we were never really in the business of going to fight for Ukraine if the chips got shoved in the middle. MikeC posted:Which is why they already have had 2 rounds of negotiations? This is life in International politics. Might makes right and the West definitely let you down once before by dangling the NATO carrot they were never going to give you. Maybe now is the time strike a deal before Western appetites for continued confrontation with Russia wanes and you get hosed again with a backroom deal.
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