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Blackbelt Bobman posted:I don’t think you can warp to decision points, but according to the internet you keep all of your units, items, upgrades (not exp levels, I don’t think), information and notes. Also, battles become more difficult to match the fact that you already have upgrades. Apparently it also shows you which conviction each dialogue choice corresponds to and lets you track how many points you put into each conviction. There are also new, harder mock battles. From what i hear levels transfer over, because ending routes usually end up with a character leaving you, and when they rejoin in NG+ they will be at the level they left you at. I think convictions levels transfer over as well, to make it easier to get to the golden route
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Mar 7, 2022 16:41
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The thing I am wondering about if it transfers over is character story progress, because I have heard nothing about that but I would assume it would
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Mar 7, 2022 17:05
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What difficulty do you guys recommend? I played a bunch of tactic games but I am certainly not great at them. I do prefer a challenge though.
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Mar 7, 2022 17:23
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Well my NPC suicided into the opposing team and cost me my first victory after I had them wiped. Can someone tell the team that uncontrollable NPCs you need to protect are the loving worst. To be clear, he walked into range of 3 enemies that all had turns in a row and they killed him from 100% before I could do anything.
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Mar 7, 2022 18:32
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poe meater posted:What difficulty do you guys recommend? I played a bunch of tactic games but I am certainly not great at them. I do prefer a challenge though. Playing on Hard, it seems tough but fair if you're familiar with strategy games. Otherwise I can see Normal being a decent challenge too
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Mar 7, 2022 18:41
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I dabble in this genre and normal has been not a total cakewalk, you can definitely lose units here and there from bad decisions which can spiral into a wipe. You sound like one step more into it than me so you're probably right on the line where hard would be better
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Mar 7, 2022 18:47
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I would say play it on normal. You can change the difficulty whenever you want. So far there's only been one fight I thought was outright unfair given my level at Normal, the chapter VII fight, but it's supposed to be that way to strongly encourage the easier option of setting the town on fire. Which was the last thing I did in the game so far. I can't wait to see how that pans out in the story.
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Mar 7, 2022 18:49
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if you're determined/dumb enough, anna can solo probably the entire game by throwing poison and stealthing. You need to he able to survive one turn in the open, but its pretty easy to find a safe spot. I tried it after a doomed run on a lark. much less effective against poison immune people but still possible
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Mar 7, 2022 18:53
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Anna seems to be the most game breakable character in the game. I thought "imagine if she could even get a second movement" and then she unlocked an ability to move up and down a surrounding terrain.
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Mar 7, 2022 18:59
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Anna is insane because her basic innate trait is just 'break action economy'. It gets stupid incredibly quickly because she also gets all the other ways to cheese AI in these games (stealth, poison etc). Its like they thought of every way to have a broken character and shoved them all in one unit.
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Mar 7, 2022 19:05
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Zore posted:Anna is insane because her basic innate trait is just 'break action economy'. It gets stupid incredibly quickly because she also gets all the other ways to cheese AI in these games (stealth, poison etc). Yeah Anna owns I love her
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Mar 7, 2022 19:13
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Finished the first run. Time for NG+  (ending frame) Route ended sadder than expected 
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Mar 7, 2022 19:30
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Elephant Ambush posted:Yeah Anna owns I love her Unrelated, I can't get over how much more I like these flavors of games over Fire Emblem. Having no permadeath as a default just seems to open up a lot more design space for individual characters and large setpiece battles. They can put us in much more interesting and dangerous positions and spend more time coming up with unique skillsets when they know we'll have access to someone the whole way. I was able to "sacrifice" a character in Ch7 to make the final activation REALLY matter, and even if I don't play FE games on Ironman, it's nice to have a game that doesn't have to account for people who do.
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Mar 7, 2022 19:47
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As awesome as Anna is, I've found that she hasn't been the deciding factor in most of my missions so far. Roland and Serenoa shred enemies to pieces, Eredor deals pretty good damage for a man with a very large shield, and Hughette is probably the best archer I've seen in a strategy RPG outside of like, Takumi from Fire Emblem Fates (and he was a jerk with a broken legendary bow). Even the spellcasters, who I was worried about at first, end up having the ability to just straight-up delete enemies. The only units I'm a little concerned about still are Benedict and Piccoletta. On paper I feel like Benedict should be really good, but in practice he feels like he underperforms and his buffs aren't that good compared to what some other units could do on their turn. Maybe I just need to buff his weapon damage and defenses so he can contribute more in between uses of "...Now!" Piccoletta's clone ability seems like it could be busted, since it can set up team attacks and can tank enemy blows for free. The item throwing is also probably really good, but money's been scarce enough between buying upgrades that I don't feel comfortable getting a ton of consumables just for her. I imagine that when she unlocks Ball Toss at level 15, it will give her a ranged attack that fills out her toolkit more. The long range items and clone seem like they could have some super powerful applications. Anyway this game is rad. Hard is a really good difficulty so far, just did the drawbridge battle. The stages have so far had really interesting map layouts and enemy compositions. The speed and deadliness of units feels just right--archers are a huge threat if left unchallenged, swordsmen can easily surround a unit and tear them apart. It leads to really fun decision-making in terms of spacing and when to go deep to take out a priority target. The music is really terrific. The only criticism I have is that the imagined battles are boring. The fact that you're supposed to run them multiple times makes me wish there were just FFT-style random battles instead.
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Mar 7, 2022 19:56
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Huxley posted:Unrelated, I can't get over how much more I like these flavors of games over Fire Emblem. Having no permadeath as a default just seems to open up a lot more design space for individual characters and large setpiece battles. They can put us in much more interesting and dangerous positions and spend more time coming up with unique skillsets when they know we'll have access to someone the whole way. I think I did the exact same thing you did. Have Shield Guy aggro strong lady into the kill zone? (I'm awful at remembering names.)
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Mar 7, 2022 19:56
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Permadeath as a mechanic in these types of games seems pointless tbh. It just forces you to reload a save instead of changing anything about the game. A game where you can lose people is a much "smoother" experience in that you will organically decide if you are ok losing a character in any given battle without feeling like you are "forced" to reload. If permadeath is just a difficulty modifier it's ok, but generally it's extraneous.
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Mar 7, 2022 19:59
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Detective No. 27 posted:I think I did the exact same thing you did. Have Shield Guy aggro strong lady into the kill zone? (I'm awful at remembering names.) Yeah, exactly, plus he dragged along 3-4 others who were about to punch out of the zone. It was very heroic of him.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:02
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Permadeath in Fire Emblem is overstated. You don't have to reset. They're usually designed so that you can lose a unit or two in every map and still be able to complete the game. With recruitable characters along the way to keep your roster together. A unit death puts the player in a short term/long term decision making scenario. But I'll admit it's nice to play a SRPG where I don't have to worry much about a death.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:03
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I think permadeath made more sense when it was like, these units are unique people, but the roles they fill in combat are easily filled by someone else. In modern Fire Emblem games you spend 15 hours raising skill levels and getting unique promotion abilities to create the perfect soldier, and then there's the whole dating system which promotes game-long investment. As much as I love Fire Emblem games, there definitely got to be a point where the permadeath for realism was directly clashing with things like timewarp bubbles that let you eugenics a perfect child soldier.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:12
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Anna and Hughette are definitely S-tier... I find that Roland is way too fragile for a front-line character, though, even with defense upgrades. AOE magic is really good, especially if combined with Now! so they can light up the same group of enemies twice in a row. So far, only one close call (Chapter 9 Desert Ambush) where I used up all of my pellets and ended up with only Anna, Hughette, Benedict and Frederica standing. Definitely seeing some flaws but every game has those.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:15
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Detective No. 27 posted:Permadeath in Fire Emblem is overstated. You don't have to reset. They're usually designed so that you can lose a unit or two in every map and still be able to complete the game. With recruitable characters along the way to keep your roster together. A unit death puts the player in a short term/long term decision making scenario. Oh sure. But with a game like fire emblem there are potential things that specific characters need to be present for otherwise you will "miss content." This means that even though the player can absolutely complete the game while losing people, you will not want to do it. So if you lose a guy, you reload, end of story. In this game since there is no difference between a flawless battle vs one where only one of your crew survives, you would only bother reloading as a personal challenge not because you want to unlock the "true ending" or whatever. It's much better design.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:21
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Cephas posted:I think permadeath made more sense when it was like, these units are unique people, but the roles they fill in combat are easily filled by someone else. In modern Fire Emblem games you spend 15 hours raising skill levels and getting unique promotion abilities to create the perfect soldier, and then there's the whole dating system which promotes game-long investment. As much as I love Fire Emblem games, there definitely got to be a point where the permadeath for realism was directly clashing with things like timewarp bubbles that let you eugenics a perfect child soldier. Good news! You can turn off permadeath in the newer FE games. It makes the game significantly less stressful. I think they only keep it around because it’s a staple of the series.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:34
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Permadeath also radically changes how the game plays in a good way. It becomes not 'how do I get through this map' but 'how do I get through this map without people dying' and cuts out a lot of cheesy strategies where you just throw units into the meat grinder because they'll pop out the other side fine. If death has no penalty it incentivizes a lot of suicide strats which I don't think are really fun tbh. Its where Fire Emblem and the nu-XCOM games excel because they're operating on fairly simple math so it leads to a lot of organic 'okay this unit can take 3 hits so i'll park them here' etc type stuff. In a lot of other games, like Triangle Strategy, the numbers are a lot mushier so it doesn't work as well. Also why Fates is mechanically the worst Fire Emblem game because with all the situational buffs and debuffs being able to accurately gauge things was difficult/impossible. Zore fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Mar 7, 2022 |
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Mar 7, 2022 21:03
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Zore posted:Permadeath also radically changes how the game plays in a good way. It becomes not 'how do I get through this map' but 'how do I get through this map without people dying' and cuts out a lot of cheesy strategies where you just throw units into the meat grinder because they'll pop out the other side fine. Why would you think that permadeath prevents "cheesy strategies"? If anything it does the opposite where you figure out the specific AI exploit and then you do it for all 100 battles in the game since any other strategy could end up with you losing a guy. Plus Permadeath turns a battle that may have an interesting ebb and flow into a puzzle where there is single outcome allowed (everyone surviving) and any mistake made during the battle means redoing the whole thing or using a savestate. The "meat grinder" "strategy" works on exactly zero battles in this game, and it doesn't work on any of the games in this genre beyond the lowest difficulty where you literally cannot lose. So I'm not sure why you would "need" permadeath to prevent a strategy that doesn't work in the first place. Zore posted:Also why Fates is mechanically the worst Fire Emblem game because with all the situational buffs and debuffs being able to accurately gauge things was difficult/impossible. I'd say that if you do "need" to accurately gauge things perfectly in order to proceed, that is a weakness of a permadeath system. It's too rigid. If I have the freedom to make a move that has a low chance of success, but also only a short-term minor malus in case of failure, that feels much better then a move that has a low chance of success, and failure means I have to reload. ate shit on live tv fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Mar 7, 2022 |
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Mar 7, 2022 21:10
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I feel like I may have accidentally started this thread's equivalent of the weapon durability topic. I definitely see the appeal of permadeath from some perspectives, and it comes down to taste. I guess it's kind of like the more indispensable you make units in combat, the more dispensable you have to make them out of combat. The third option I suppose is a story-heavy game where ANY character death is a game over, but hmmmmm.
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Mar 7, 2022 21:12
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Blackbelt Bobman posted:Good news! You can turn off permadeath in the newer FE games. It makes the game significantly less stressful. I think they only keep it around because it’s a staple of the series. Yeah I haven't played a Fire Emblem without Casual mode on since it was introduced. Permadeath is not my thing.
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Mar 7, 2022 21:17
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 In NG+, Lionel says you get a thing if you complete a playthrough with no unit deaths
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Mar 7, 2022 21:19
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Not at all. If you want to design a puzzle game where failure means having to redo the puzzle, perma-death is fine. But if you want a more organic game where mistakes made during the puzzle can lead to a more interesting path while still having the same outcome, then perma-death won't work. Additionally the lack of permadeath means you can design maps where you expect to inflict losses on the player even vs cheesy mechanics/skills that lack counter play. Gyoru posted:
Is that only an NG+ thing, or could you do it in a first playthrough?
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Mar 7, 2022 21:19
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:Why would you think that permadeath prevents "cheesy strategies"? If anything it does the opposite where you figure out the specific AI exploit and then you do it for all 100 battles in the game since any other strategy could end up with you losing a guy. Plus Permadeath turns a battle that may have an interesting ebb and flow into a puzzle where there is single outcome allowed (everyone surviving) and any mistake made during the battle means redoing the whole thing or using a savestate. The "meat grinder" "strategy" works on exactly zero battles in this game, and it doesn't work on any of the games in this genre beyond the lowest difficulty where you literally cannot lose. So I'm not sure why you would "need" permadeath to prevent a strategy that doesn't work in the first place. 'Accurately gauge' things in this context is literally doing really simple math. AKA I have 32 HP and this group of enemies does 10 damage when they attack me, so if there are 4 of them and they can all attack this character they will die. It can still sometimes be worth it to risk that due to other factors (ie hit chance etc), but there have been times in Triangle Strategy where I had a character just get nuked out of nowhere because enemies do wildly varying amounts of damage and it is really difficult to figure out the underlying formula. Also your first paragraph is pretty incorrect because all a game needs to do to not be a puzzle is put in different kinds of objectives. If you have a time limit, a need to capture a specific enemy, need to protect something or be in multiple places at once your strategy pretty radically changes and very rarely involves any AI exploits. Huxley posted:I feel like I may have accidentally started this thread's equivalent of the weapon durability topic. Honestly I would be super down for the third option being the default in Fire Emblem. Its how most people including the devs played and it would let them actually write side characters into the plot instead of having them disappear the second they join your army. That's definitely one of Fire Emblem's biggest weaknesses. Alternatively extend the fact that permadeath exists in gameplay mechanically but storywise just have the character be wounded so they still pop up in the plot stuff but are gone permanently for battles for the worst of both worlds  .
Zore fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Mar 7, 2022 |
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Mar 7, 2022 21:21
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Yeah, permadeath can be extremely limiting and no-fun, especially in games where the damage/to-hit% is relatively opaque and the RNG is borrowed from X-Com. I can understand the appeal, definitely, but it works better as an optional difficulty slider than a mandated way to play the game.
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Mar 7, 2022 21:22
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I don't always want all games in the same genre to be the same. If I decide that I hate myself and want to play with permadeath then I play Fire Emblem and XCOM and enjoy the challenge. With Triangle Strategy I do not want permadeath and I do not want to have to re-do fights a lot. I want to see the story and have fun with my little Mordheim-ish skirmish battle simulator.
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Mar 7, 2022 21:23
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Ace Transmuter posted:Yeah, permadeath can be extremely limiting and no-fun, especially in games where the damage/to-hit% is relatively opaque and the RNG is borrowed from X-Com. I do think its kind of hilarious how often people complain about X-COMs RNG because, at least for the new games, it is wildly tilted in the player's favor on everything except the highest difficulty which makes it actually 'fair' and obey the listed numbers instead of secretly increasing to-hit when you miss and giving your dudes bonus defenses if an enemy lands a shot. Ditto Fire Emblem and its 2-RNG system which massively benefits the player. People are incredibly bad at understanding probability.
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Mar 7, 2022 21:25
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fwiw Fire Emblem has other ways to pressure the player besides units lost. Like if you don't want a unit to die, you might have to use up more charges on your best equipment. there are some stages where permadeath really does limit you to figuring out a puzzle, but i think that at its best, Fire Emblem has some maps where permadeath just jives really well with the sort of gameplay it's going for. Like the whole weapon triangle system plays really well with permadeath, as do things like horseslayers and armorslayers and the interactions between archers and pegasus riders. The FFT and Valkyria Chronicles approach to permadeath is fun, where you get 3 rounds to revive someone before they die for good. In general though I think Triangle Strategy made the right decision to not include a permadeath system.
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Mar 7, 2022 21:26
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Every fight is like a JRPG boss, in that I want to have a really tough time and feel like a genius when I figure it out and beat it, but also I never want to lose a boss fight under any circumstances.
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Mar 7, 2022 21:27
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Huxley posted:Every fight is like a JRPG boss, in that I want to have a really tough time and feel like a genius when I figure it out and beat it, but also I never want to lose a boss fight under any circumstances. Never has anyone so perfectly explained my thought pattern 
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Mar 7, 2022 21:29
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Blackbelt Bobman posted:Never has anyone so perfectly explained my thought pattern Our attitude is why every game has a boss that reduces the entire party's HP to 1 and then does nothing for three turns. lol
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Mar 7, 2022 21:32
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https://twitter.com/nintendoamerica/status/1500924572132155399?s=21 drat that drawing is fuckin sick
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Mar 7, 2022 21:34
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Yea don't get me wrong, I really like Xcom. Hell I did an Iron-man play through on Legendary difficulty. It was great. But that specific combat system lends itself well to permadeath without "forcing" you to reload. The biggest being that the optimal way to play is to always eliminate all threats the turn they trigger. The game is designed around that assumption. Second is that even if you lose your ranger, other then a rookie, another ranger is for all intents and purposes the same as the one you lost. Mechanically there is no individuality, which is fine. Zore posted:
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Mar 7, 2022 21:34
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:
I mean by this definition all games are just puzzles because they have loss conditions? How does Triangle Strategy not count under this definition, you can still get game overs if all your characters die in a map.
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Mar 7, 2022 21:37
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Blackbelt Bobman posted:https://twitter.com/nintendoamerica/status/1500924572132155399?s=21 I really like the art on the character's stat pages ingame too. That loose concept-art style is neat to see in the game itself. Like Anna's portrait has some stray pencil lines from the sketch that they deliberately left in? I guess to make her outline seem a little blurrier. It gives the game a bit more of a like, "project" feel to me--like they're intentionally leaving in some evidence of the human hands that created the game.
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Mar 7, 2022 21:46
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