Gobbeldygook posted:

going to pretend the last few pages didn't happen and give this post way more effort than expected.

tank words

Gobbeldygook posted:

going to pretend the last few pages didn't happen and give this post way more effort than expected.

I have both paladin and warrior at 90, but I almost never play paladin because the rotation is more effort without enough payoff for me. I am a proud, smooth-brained warrior main.

tl;dr: paladin's have better party mitigation and mitigate a higher% of damage for both themselves and their co-tank but their rotation is more complicated, warriors have a 4 minute invuln and a lot more healing for themselves and their co-tank and is braindead easy to play.

I linked a mitigation comparison a few pages ago but for reference:


Before I get into the comparison itself: attacks check dodge > crit > block > parry in that order, dodge only applies in unsynced content, only trash and pre-ShB bosses crit (5% chance of 150% damage), in EW a paladin has a 30% chance to block any mitigatable attack and a successful block reduces the damage by 20% (block gives paladins the equivalent of about 5% of always-on DR over the other tanks), and all jobs have a 10% chance of parrying a physical attack which reduces the damage by 15%. You cannot block or parry while casting a spell. Damage mitigation is multiplicative, e.g. taking a 100 damage hit with two 10% damage reduction effects active is (100 * 0.9 * 0.9) = 81 damage.

Holmgang vs Hallowed Ground: 4 minute vs 7 minute invuln cooldown. Being able to survive a tank-killing mechanic every 4 minutes allows your group to plan to partially or completely ignore some mechanics. When progging a warrior with a quick holmgang finger can survive more frequent gently caress-ups and let you see more of the fight. Holmgang is the biggest advantage to warriors over paladins. Incidentally, you should probably usually use a macro to self-cast holmgang; you can always self-cast it but if you're targeting a mob when you press holmgang it will not fire if the mob is outside of the 6y range and if you root a mob with Holmgang the invuln ends early if that mob dies. The downside to any combat macro is that the server's haunted, macroed abilities don't queue, and you often need holmgang right NOW.

Paladin's have Passage of Arms: 100% block rate for you and 15% damage reduction for the party on a 2 minute cooldown is incredible and warrior has nothing comparable. The 15% damage reduction persists on affected party members for 5 seconds after the paladin stops using Passage. This is the biggest advantage to paladin.

Paladin's have Cover. Being able to occasionally save someone from death is great and warrior has nothing comparable. PSA: It also redirects debuffs and knockback.

Sentinel vs Vengeance: Vengeance is just better because it also does a 55 potency counter every time the warrior's hit while it's active and paladin's doesn't.

Inner Release: Not exactly mitigation, but it also provides immunity to stun, sleep, bind, heavy, and knockback and movement effects until the warrior has used all three charges. The knockback/movement immunity will sometimes give you extra uptime (e.g. p4n/p4s1) or save you from a lethal yeet.

Self healing: Warriors have Equilibrium (60 sec cd, 1200 potency heal+15 sec 200 potency HOT), Bloodwhetting (25 sec cd, 400 potency shield+400 potency heal per weaponskill hit in the next 8 seconds and heals crit if the attack crits, $texas healing if AOEing,), Thrill of Battle (90 sec cd, +20% health and 20% heal, increases all self-healing other than Bloodwhetting's by 20%), Shake It Off (90 sec, AOE 300 potency heal + 15-21% health shield) and a 250 potency heal on the 3 in their 1-2-3 combo. Paladins have healing from Holy Sheltron (1000 potency/use, can use approx every 25 seconds but they start with two 'charges' worth) and Holy Spirit (1600 potency/minute from Req), but Clemency is a GCD heal and a significant DPS loss if you could be hitting something. It's not even close.

Nascent Flash/Bloodwhetting vs Intervention/Holy Sheltron: Bloodwhetting and Nascent Flash give you or the target a 400 potency shield, Bloodwhetting heals you and Nascent Flash both you and the target for 400 per weaponskill hit you land in the next 8 seconds (good normally, better if you have Infuriate or IR available, insane if AOEing) but provide zero healing if you don't have something to hit. Meanwhile, Holy Sheltron and Intervention provide 1000 potency of healing over 12 seconds to you or only the target, respectively. Intervention and Nascent Flash provide the same baseline mitigation to the target (10% for 8 seconds+10% for 4 seconds (19% for 4 seconds)) but Intervention's goes up to 20% for 8 seconds+10% for 4 seconds(28% for 4 seconds) if the paladin uses it when Rampart or Sentinel are active. Bloodwhetting gives 10% DR for 8 seconds+10% for 4 seconds (19% for 4 seconds) while Holy Sheltron gives 20% DR for 8 seconds+15% for 4 seconds (32% for 4 seconds). What it boils down to is Nascent Flash & Bloodwhetting are better single-hit mitigation vs smaller hits but Intervention & Holy Sheltron are better vs the massive tankbusters in savage and Nascent Flash/Bloodwhetting give way more healing.

Divine Veil vs Shake it Off: Divine Veil is a 400 potency heal and a shield equal to 10% of the paladin's health for everyone other than the paladin, so at ilevel 580 (arbitrarily chosen) would be a 7.6k shield. Shake's shield depends on how each character's health is and how many buffs Shake is fed (0 to 3), so at ilevel 580 at least a 7.2/8.1/9.1/10k shield for casters & healers, 7.9/8.9/10/11k for phys ranged & melee, and 11.4/12.9/14.4/16k for tanks. Shake It Off applies instantly while Divine Veil doesn't trigger until someone hits you with a GCD heal (Holy Spirit/Circle counts) and Divine Veil has no effect on the paladin while Shake It Off effects the warrior, so it's a bonus self-mitigation button for warriors vs paladins. Veil is a 30 second buff that triggers a 30 second shield, so you can apply it way before a raidwide (or even pre-pull) and get value out of the shield.

The other major difference is the rotational complexity. Here's the paladin opener/rotation infographic from The Balance

and here's the warrior one

... yeah. and here's a screenshot of rDPS for P2S from fflogs.

Warrior is not just the easiest tank but hands-down the easiest job. No job has as small a difference between good and bad players as warrior. The warrior rotation is easy, flexible, and forgiving, allowing you to focus on fight mechanics, save gas for DPS checks, and not worry too much about fight timings. That is also the biggest knock on warrior: It's very boring if the fight's boring. The paladin rotation is significantly more complex (although like all tanks there are no procs or RNG anywhere in their rotation, limiting the complexity) and gives you lots of opportunities to screw up, but rewards planning around fight timings. If you look at P2S stats you'll notice that the worst paladins are worse than any other tank, but the best paladins are better than the best warriors.

Some minor things:
-Paladins have two or three more keybinds than warriors depending on if you count Shield Bash.
-Paladins use several AOE abilities in their single target rotation, warriors only have Primal Rend at 90. This is usually good.
-Warrior gap closer is a 10 second cooldown with 3 charges + Primal Rend every 60 seconds, paladin is a 15 second cooldown with 2 charges. They're mostly used as oGCD attacks, but every so often warriors get an opportunity to zip about like angry assholes. Also warriors get theirs at 62 and paladins at 72 which is grating when downsynced.
-Warriors are the kings of soloing old and new content. It's not just the self-healing but the shields from shake it off and bloodwhetting are necessary to deal with some mechanics.
-Warriors are better than paladins (or any other tank really) in Eureka and Bozja - especially Eureka.
-Warriors stat priority is crit > det > ten, the other three tanks all use crit > sksp target > dh > det. A warrior using a DRK/GNB/PLD-optimized gear set eats about a ~1% DPS loss but a DRK/GNB/PLD using a WAR-optimized set might take a significantly larger DPS hit depending on skill speed and ping.
-Glams: IMO they're a wash, like the HW paladin relics are as striking as any axe glam.

The Walrus posted:

servers just go down for anyone else?

DizzyBum posted:

So I've been playing FFXIV on Linux for several months now after finally dropping Windows. I'm using Steam Proton on Linux Mint, and it's been flawless, except for the glaring issue of not being able to properly run the new launcher to actually start the game. Up until yesterday, I've been able to just force the old launcher in the config settings. Unfortunately, yesterday's update broke this because they now force the new launcher no matter what. Even if you try to put NOSTEAM=1 in your launch options, you won't be able to log in because of this Steam account linking they're making us do.

Here's some bug tracking stuff I found today as well as an official forum thread calling out the issue:

https://www.protondb.com/app/39210
https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton/issues/580
https://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=48006

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/457352-Old-launcher-no-longer-working/

Just calling it out here in case anyone's interested in helping tackle this issue, and as a warning to anyone interested in playing FFXIV in Linux. Again, the game itself has been perfect; it's just the lovely new launcher that's the problem!

Valentin posted:

that post makes me really want to try warrior, my only concern is that none of the animations will be as good as divine veil (the little sword flip!) or passage of arms.

Valentin posted:

that post makes me really want to try warrior, my only concern is that none of the animations will be as good as divine veil (the little sword flip!) or passage of arms.

Albu-quirky Guy posted:

The only bad thing about WAR is the first 3-4 MRD class quests:

• Prove you can handle an axe by using it to hit a rock
  
• That was good but we've got another rock over here
  
• We had something else for you to do but we forgot it, so go hit another rock
  
• Are you tired of hitting rocks yet? Well do we have a surprise for you...
  

Everything else about the job is amazing.

Madmarker posted:

Do we know why FF is getting hit with a DDOS? Lodestone doesn't work at work.

Mr. Nice! posted:

This post is great - one thing I do different, though, as a warrior is I never open with tomahawk. I use onslaught to open and immediately roll into my main combo. Onslaught and a heavy swing isn’t as much enmity as a tomahawk, for sure, but I’m starting my burst at GCD 4 instead of 5. For solo situations, starting with onslaught, overpower, and mythril tempest gets you bursting even faster. This doesn’t work as well with a full raid because all the partwide buffs aren’t up by GCD 3, but they all are up by 4 it would seem.

Spuzzz posted:

The PLD sword and board is nice but on the other hand, giant axes:

Galaga Galaxian posted:

Ah but have you considered a cartridge fed exploding sword and stylish, practical coats instead of awkward, bulky armor?

Galaga Galaxian posted:

Ah but have you considered a cartridge fed exploding sword and stylish, practical coats instead of awkward, bulky armor?

Wrestlepig posted:

War looks best so long as you find a good axe that isn't totally oversized

Spuzzz posted:

I'm not against GNB but just like the feel of WAR more, plus he could only choose between the two. I need those extra plates and space right now.

Badger of Basra posted:

what pants are those?

Gobbeldygook posted:

Wrestlepig posted:

War looks best so long as you find a good axe that isn't totally oversized

iPodschun posted:

This is the opener I use because I think going Inner Chaos, Inner Chaos, Primal Rend is great. I also like Tomahawk as my opener because for positioning I let the boss come to where I'm at rather than charging in then having to move it back toward the party.

I want bigger axes. I also want to hold two comically oversized axes at the same time.

I also want a large frying pan as a weapon glam

A Moose posted:

as weird as it sounds, a frying pan would probably be a DRK weapon, because you'd most likely be smacking someone with the flat part, instead of the edge.

Gobbeldygook posted:

and here's the warrior one

Subjunctive posted:

Speaking of bad players, this graphic is how I (who have WAR 90 for months) discovered that Storm's Path exists. I guess that came in when I was on break between pre-HW and late ShB and I didn't go over my lower abilities well enough when I got back. Thanks!

Madmarker posted:

Have you done the Hildribrand quests? Hildibrand's mom uses warrior animations and attacks with a frying pan

Gobbeldygook posted:

Warrior is not just the easiest tank but hands-down the easiest job. No job has as small a difference between good and bad players as warrior. The warrior rotation is easy, flexible, and forgiving, allowing you to focus on fight mechanics, save gas for DPS checks, and not worry too much about fight timings. That is also the biggest knock on warrior: It's very boring if the fight's boring. The paladin rotation is significantly more complex (although like all tanks there are no procs or RNG anywhere in their rotation, limiting the complexity) and gives you lots of opportunities to screw up, but rewards planning around fight timings. If you look at P2S stats you'll notice that the worst paladins are worse than any other tank, but the best paladins are better than the best warriors.

OhFunny posted:

Warrior not only learns Fel Cleave, but eventually becomes one with the Fel Cleave.

WrightOfWay posted:

Storm's Path has existed since ARR, though I guess it wasn't used super often until StB. What did you do when you were synced below 50? Just Heavy Swing -> Maim over and over again?