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EL BROMANCE posted:Yeah that's what I mean, it makes sense in context but sometimes it's easy to interpret the way people react to this being revealed as a good thing rather than just everything clicking. Given the bleakness, anything that can lighten up thinking about that movie is needed! I also think of it as the only French New Extreme that justifies it's violence and imagery, more than just using it as a showcase. The violence has to be that extreme cuz that's what makes the story work, and is tied directly to the theme. Inside doesn't work nearly as well for me, because I don't empathize with the central theme of the woman destroying the main character over the death of her unborn child; "eye for an eye" hate-fueled revenge to balance the karmic scales, although the violence does express the hatred and pain inspiring the villain.
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Mar 10, 2022 19:57
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I like watching (onscreen/fake) people get hurt (not real people), we all do its why we watch slashers. I dont really care how the movie justifies its violence, I feel like needing a movie to justify its violence is just someone needing some comfort facing the fact they like to watch violence
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Mar 10, 2022 20:01
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Takes No Damage posted:Yeah, Martyrs gets points for having more plot justification for its gore than just "Do you want to play a game?" But that's still the worst part for me. I've noticed in terms of violence I'm bothered more by duration than magnitude. Just seeing someone get pasted by Freddy or Jason is fine, but extended sequences like what you mention in Martyrs are uncomfortable. That's why I say Human Centipede, while not really a good movie, is at least an effective one. In a 'normal' horror movie the characters getting all mashed together would be the big reveal at the end, cut to credits movie over. In HC, that poo poo is Act 2, you still have to watch these poor people crawl around for another 40 minutes I think there's something to that. It's not necessarily seeing someone get mutilated for me, it's the aftermath or when it's drawn out for a long time and you are the person having to live with it. It's a big reason why Fresh worked super well for me. Regarding justification, it's actually less scary to me to have an explanation for violence. Nothing is scarier to me than senseless killing, but it has to be deliberately crafted that way and not just lazily omitted.
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Mar 10, 2022 20:08
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Kvlt! posted:I like watching (onscreen/fake) people get hurt (not real people), we all do its why we watch slashers. I dont really care how the movie justifies its violence, I feel like needing a movie to justify its violence is just someone needing some comfort facing the fact they like to watch violence I completely disagree. I want horror movies to have more substance to them than just being elaborate special effect showcases, and contextualizing/justifying the violence is a big part of that.
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Mar 10, 2022 20:08
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Kvlt! posted:I like watching (onscreen/fake) people get hurt (not real people), we all do its why we watch slashers. I dont really care how the movie justifies its violence, I feel like needing a movie to justify its violence is just someone needing some comfort facing the fact they like to watch violence That's not what I meant, though. Obviously a horror film will have violence, and FNE is famous as a sub-genre for pushing the boundaries of on-screen violence and gore, and showcasing these effects. There is still a difference between a movie that showcases violence as an act in itself, like a slasher film, and a film that has thought of a way to make the extreme violence hold a significance with the themes, story and ideas beyond just imagery, and Martyrs is a great example of that, and Inside is also an example of it, but not as good to me, because it's more expressive of the villain's inner hatred. Haute Tension's violence is shocking, but it doesn't hold a significance to the story. It's like Jacob's Ladder. It could just be a movie where nightmare imagery scares the main character, but the horror imagery is tied into the themes and character, and it makes it feel more significant and interesting.
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Mar 10, 2022 20:10
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long-rear end nips Diane posted:I completely disagree. I want horror movies to have more substance to them than just being elaborate special effect showcases, and contextualizing/justifying the violence is a big part of that. But that substance can be that violence is often unjustified, random, and we have a natural inclination to be fascinated with the spectacle of violence. I don’t think a horror film owes a justification of its violence to anyone. There are great and bad movies that have deeply and thoroughly contextualized and justified depictions of violence just as there are great and bad movies where the violence is purely visual and lurid. I don’t think one or the either is a marker of the films quality. Substance =/= themes that are profound or thoughtful in my opinion. I can find great substance in a massive exploding head effect that has little to do with a thematic element and more so that I love a massive exploding head effect and I’m satisfied with that.
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Mar 10, 2022 20:20
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Franchescanado posted:There is a long history of people allowing themselves to be victims because it's perceived as honorable, and there is a greater reward for their great suffering, and we've really not reckoned with that reasoning as a whole to this day. You get pie in the sky when you die
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Mar 10, 2022 20:27
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Okay, let's replace "Justfied" with "Thematic Relevance", because that's what I'm discussing and that's what I'm reading others as having posited. I'm not reading "horror has to justify violence", and I'm saying "horror movies that manage to use violence as thematically relevant or expressive of themes/story get extra points for being Great". I've never been one to be a prude on violence, and I wouldn't watch horror or action movies if I had a conservative attitude towards violence. I do, however, think of things analytically and how movies can use it's disparate parts to tell a story, including how the violence is used.WeaponX posted:But that substance can be that violence is often unjustified, random, and we have a natural inclination to be fascinated with the spectacle of violence. Name a good exploding head scene and, if it's a movie I've seen, I can try and see if it does or does not tie into the themes. Scanners and The Fury are easy, but The Prowler is tricky cuz I've seen it once. Also, what you are arguing for is a form of Aestheticism, which is still a school of interpretation/analysis of art on the basis of beauty. You're right, style is substance, but there is still, usually, a way to verbalize that and tie it into the works themes. Franchescanado fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Mar 10, 2022 |
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Mar 10, 2022 20:35
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Saw Shatter Dead today. Pretty cool Shot on Video horror using the undead
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Mar 10, 2022 20:46
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Justification is probably not a great word to use, because like WeaponX mentioned, justification is in the eye of the beholder. Serious, thoughtful themes aren't the only justification for on-screen violence. If you have a rad special effect to show off, that can be all the justification you need. One thing that I think gets overlooked in these debates is that the violence itself isn't what makes stuff like New French Extremity different from Friday the 13th Part 6. It's the tone, it's the way the characters are written and how they're acted, it's just the overall oppressive atmosphere that those films create versus the more fun carnival ride feeling of a Friday the 13th sequel. So to me they're both equally "justified" in their violence because it serves the purpose it's supposed to serve in the context of the film it's in.
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Mar 10, 2022 20:46
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Franchescanado posted:Okay, let's replace "Justfied" with "Thematic Relevance", because that's what I'm discussing and that's what I'm reading others as having posited. I'm not reading "horror has to justify violence", and I'm saying "horror movies that manage to use violence as thematically relevant or expressive of themes/story get extra points for being Great". I've never been one to be a prude on violence, and I wouldn't watch horror or action movies if I had a conservative attitude towards violence. I do, however, think of things analytically and how movies can use it's disparate parts to tell a story, including how the violence is used. I don’t mean that the exploding head effect is without thematic relevance but rather I can enjoy it regardless. I think we generally agree on this, I guess I’m just arguing against the idea that the thematic relevance of violence in horror films needs to be somewhat overt or obvious or crucial to enjoying the film- which admittedly I don’t think anyone here is really arguing.
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Mar 10, 2022 21:03
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Y'all are probably right, this discussion just makes me think of Terrifier, which I hated for feeling more like a demo reel than a movie.
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Mar 10, 2022 21:11
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WeaponX posted:I don’t mean that the exploding head effect is without thematic relevance but rather I can enjoy it regardless. Yeah, pretty much. I don't knock a film for not tying the violence to the themes, and I don't need it to be overt or crucial to the experience, but I do perk up and get more interested if the use of violence strikes me as significant or meaningful and starts spinning the gears in my thinking cap.
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Mar 10, 2022 21:19
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Double posting, but I'd thought I'd share for the audiobook/podcast/non-fiction horror lovers: Audible Plus has a lot of the Great Courses for free. There's a 5 hour one called American Monsters by historian Adam Jortner. (It's not on Kanopy, it's not on the Great Courses site, either; it seems exclusive to Audible), and it's very good. Topics covered so far: -History of the Fear and Persecution of Witches and it's return during The Satanic Panic -History of horror films creating the American Indie film industry, the rise of slashers and teen representation on film -Ghost Stories, "IBG"s and leftover guilt from the Civil War and the genocide of Native Americans -Demons, Ghosts, Psychics, Spiritualists, Talk Boards, and the redefinition of the Afterlife in America's consciousness -History of Weird Fiction -King Kong, Tod Browning's Freaks, Frankenstein, inadvertent racism and sympathizing with minorities in a country dealing with segregation -Hollywood Censorship of the 1930's-60's and Horror's Response, and the birth of Late Night Horror Shows & the Horror Host -The Cold War, "The Bomb", The Blob -The Red Scare, the Twilight Zone and Shirley Jackson's fiction -Bigfoot and the rise of Paranormal Investigations and Cryptozoology It's 10 lectures, each one's about half an hour long, and it's really casual and informative. Kinda reminds me of Nightmares In Red, White and Blue, but in audio form. I've grabbed a few new movies and books to check out from it.
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Mar 10, 2022 22:00
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I love Martyrs. Will never watch it again. I didn't love Inside but it was cool. I have a thing about bellybuttons and it hosed me up for a bit. Didn't watch a horror film for like two months.
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Mar 11, 2022 08:51
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ThePopeOfFun posted:So we switched to Suspiria because Tubi’s version of Phenomena stopped being dubbed a quarter of the way. Awesome. Love the atmosphere and weird camera poo poo. We’ll find a proper format Phenomena I’m sure. This is a problem with the streaming version of Phenomena. The original dubbed version had a few scenes cut out so on all streaming versions it's the original complete Italian cut but the Italian scenes are unsubtitled. They aren't super important to the narrative, but it is annoying.
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Mar 11, 2022 10:00
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I didn't post about Final Destination 2 for some reason, but my roommate was apparently in her exhaustive fugue state where after the first kill, she shut the lights of and then started snoring, so I at least showed her the pileup before wading into new territory with FD3. But first, FD2 was decent as a follow up to FD1, it didn't tread a whole lot of new ground, but it definitely brought a couple of new, and logical elements, to the fray. Final Destination 3, was definitely enjoyable. OF the three I've seen so far, it's definitely the most watchable of them. It sets up the pins, and then breezes between kills, because the movie rightfully assumes that, even if you haven't seen the previous installments, you know what the plot is, so they don't need to explain it. As said by other posters, Mary Elizabeth Winstead does carry the whole movie, but it's fine, because otherwise I don't think it could have worked. It got my roommate's seal of approval because she wasn't rambling the whole time, and the only reason I know she didn't fall asleep because I'd hear an exclamation after each of the kills. As a side note, for some reason whenever everyone was saying "Mary Elizabeth Winstead" in the lead up, I was interpreting "Mary Lynn Rajskub," so I was expecting Gail the Snail to be the Final (Destination) Girl this time around. Final Destination Rankings thus far: 3, 1, 2
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Mar 11, 2022 15:36
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That's pretty accurate. The truck pileup is one of the better disasters in the franchise and the pane of glass is one of the sillier kills, but overall 2 doesn't have the confidence in its audience to understand "they didn't die then so they gotta die now" without really laying into it, and it doesn't have enough faith in itself to be a separate movie so they tie it into the first one as much as they can. The ending gag in 2 is pretty good though.
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Mar 11, 2022 15:50
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I do think after the first 3 they somewhat exhaust their cache of relatable disasters. I'm sure race car disasters and bridge collapses are plenty terrifying for those who experience them but they don't hit the same sort of visceral common place fear zones as plane crashes, motorway pileups or roller-coaster accidents. I do wonder what they'll do for 6. There was a super tone deaf reference to 9/11 in 3, so I hope they don't reference the pandemic.
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Mar 11, 2022 15:58
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The last 30 seconds of 2 gave it a significant bump when I was watching it for last year's pooky bingo. Should I check out 4? I skipped it because of time constraints and reports of its quality.
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Mar 11, 2022 15:59
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Karloff posted:I do think after the first 3 they somewhat exhaust their cache of relatable disasters. I'm sure race car disasters and bridge collapses are plenty terrifying for those who experience them but they don't hit the same sort of visceral common place fear zones as plane crashes, motorway pileups or roller-coaster accidents. I do wonder what they'll do for 6. There was a super tone deaf reference to 9/11 in 3, so I hope they don't reference the pandemic. Death has been too sloppy for the last 20 years, and had to unleash a plague to get everything back to plan.
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Mar 11, 2022 16:01
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moths posted:The last 30 seconds of 2 gave it a significant bump when I was watching it for last year's pooky bingo. skip 4 and go straight to 5 just look up the escalator kill from 4 and you've gotten everything of value from it
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Mar 11, 2022 16:21
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moths posted:The last 30 seconds of 2 gave it a significant bump when I was watching it for last year's pooky bingo. 4 is the only one I don't like, and 5 is tied for my favorite so skip to that. You won't miss anything.
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Mar 11, 2022 16:22
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I think I've posted this before, but the quality of a Final Destination movie is directly proportional to how much Tony Todd is in it. He appears in 1, 2, and 5 which are all good, you only hear his voice in 3 which is mediocre, and he's not in 4 at all which sucks.
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Mar 11, 2022 16:25
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gey muckle mowser posted:I think I've posted this before, but the quality of a Final Destination movie is directly proportional to how much Tony Todd is in it. He appears in 1, 2, and 5 which are all good, you only hear his voice in 3 which is mediocre, and he's not in 4 at all which sucks. That's not exactly fair, since that is a metric you can apply to all movies
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Mar 11, 2022 16:36
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gey muckle mowser posted:I think I've posted this before, but the quality of a
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Mar 11, 2022 16:49
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Karloff posted:I do think after the first 3 they somewhat exhaust their cache of relatable disasters. I'm sure race car disasters and bridge collapses are plenty terrifying for those who experience them but they don't hit the same sort of visceral common place fear zones as plane crashes, motorway pileups or roller-coaster accidents. I do wonder what they'll do for 6. There was a super tone deaf reference to 9/11 in 3, so I hope they don't reference the pandemic. Given the state of American infrastructure maintenance we may find that Final Destination 5 was merely ahead of its time
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Mar 11, 2022 16:51
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Almost Blue posted:This is a problem with the streaming version of Phenomena. The original dubbed version had a few scenes cut out so on all streaming versions it's the original complete Italian cut but the Italian scenes are unsubtitled. They aren't super important to the narrative, but it is annoying. Very good to know. Thank you!
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Mar 11, 2022 17:22
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Tony Todd's wiki page actually says he announced his semi-retirement this week, he plans to focus more on theater stuff. I do find it odd that the more prominent horror films to come out in the past decade or so haven't featured him more. Like, he's been doing a lot of super low budget schlock, which is fine and there's no shame in that but why wouldn't an Ari Aster or a David Gordon Green or somebody like that not want to have him in a movie as a creepy side character? He would've been a perfect addition to something like Malignant.
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Mar 11, 2022 17:30
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Mar 11, 2022 17:33
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That's beautiful casting
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Mar 11, 2022 17:36
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Thanks for the advice on FD4, I'll continue giving it a pass. Didn't Munsters already complete shooting? I thought that was key to the rating. Not that I'm complaining, she's wonderful.
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Mar 11, 2022 17:36
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I thought they already wrapped and got a rating and everything.
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Mar 11, 2022 17:36
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MacheteZombie posted:Saw Shatter Dead today. Pretty cool Shot on Video horror using the undead Shatter Dead is sick. Ever seen Bone Sickness? It's one of the ones like Violent poo poo and Zombi '90 that more homage zombie movies and are very blatantly a bunch of teenagers trying to see if they could reverse engineer effects shots from magazine spreads. https://twitter.com/GenreFilmAddict/status/1452301187525529607?s=20&t=OdvtnhUxiVXYr112p3lDgg https://twitter.com/illegalmasseur/status/1444828692182704130?s=20&t=OdvtnhUxiVXYr112p3lDgg
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Mar 11, 2022 17:40
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Shatter Dead is sick. Ever seen Bone Sickness? It's one of the ones like Violent poo poo and Zombi '90 that more homage zombie movies and are very blatantly a bunch of teenagers trying to see if they could reverse engineer effects shots from magazine spreads. I havent! Looks very cool though, I'll check it out!
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Mar 11, 2022 17:51
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Oh man Bone Sickness is a throwback. I remember being 15 and going to a horror convention and meeting Fred Vogel from Toetag and his wife and picking up a copy of Bone Sickness from some DVD bin there for like 6 bucks. Its a ton of fun lmao
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Mar 11, 2022 17:52
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Apparently the dude has made 2 or 3 other SOV movies, when I'm not lazy I will give em a watch.
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Mar 11, 2022 17:57
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It's on youtube for anyone who wants to watch (NSFW): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3SwBQ697dA
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Mar 11, 2022 17:58
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Watched Martyrs because of the chat in this thread and now I genuinely need Mr Rogers to come talk to me. "I bet what you saw was really scary, but it's just people making pretend"
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Mar 11, 2022 18:06
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I just watched Elvira: Mistress of the Dark for the first time a week or two ago, and she's a delight. I was already on board for The Munsters but that just makes me look forward to it more Xander B Coolridge posted:Watched Martyrs because of the chat in this thread and now I genuinely need Mr Rogers to come talk to me. I'd watch a horror show hosted by Mr Rogers. "As you watch The Blob dissolve its victims into a pile of bones and goo, look for the helpers. You'll always find people who are helping."
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Mar 11, 2022 18:26
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