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You can say something noncommittal like it's in the ball park but yeah it does anchor the entire conversation to something close-ish, unless their JD or something is wildly off from the title.
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Mar 8, 2022 19:44
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Most of the advice in the thread is about how to negotiate a traditional job offer. When recruiters are fishing, you should a) ask them for the range and b) have a serious, no bullshit "I would be likely to take this job" number you can throw at them. If you do A and you get a range, you can assent to it without committing - just say something like "the range you provided is a reasonable starting point depending on the exact job duties, team fit, benefits, vacation, bonuses etc." If you do B, that number has to be high enough that you're willing to continue the conversation when they say "yeah sure, that works". Do not lowball B. My number is like, 1.5x current salary + 2x bonus.
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Mar 8, 2022 20:21
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Here is a sample boilerplate you can use to respond to any recruiter cold contact:https://github.com/AlexChesser/recruiter-autoresponse posted:Thanks so much for reaching out. I'm always interested in hearing about what new and exciting opportunities are out there. As a software engineer I'm sure you can imagine that I get a very high volume of recruiters reaching out on LinkedIn. It is a wonderful position of privilege to be in and I'm thankful for it.
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Mar 8, 2022 20:32
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Don't let lovely rear end in a top hat recruiters that cold call you waste your time. Demand a phone call before even telling you about the job? gently caress off. Demand to know your salary/expectations? Tell me the range first, or gently caress off. Give them an asking price and they say "lol no way, top of the band is 35% less than that"? gently caress off. You've got to control every moment of your interaction with these people. If you don't value your time, no one else will.
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Mar 8, 2022 20:35
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also like you are not obligated to respond to recruiters
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Mar 8, 2022 20:38
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Most of the advice in the thread is about how to negotiate a traditional job offer. When recruiters are fishing, you should a) ask them for the range and b) have a serious, no bullshit "I would be likely to take this job" number you can throw at them. If you do A and you get a range, you can assent to it without committing - just say something like "the range you provided is a reasonable starting point depending on the exact job duties, team fit, benefits, vacation, bonuses etc." If you do B, that number has to be high enough that you're willing to continue the conversation when they say "yeah sure, that works". Do not lowball B. My number is like, 1.5x current salary + 2x bonus. Yeah, Strong agree with this. With recruiters anchoring can help because ultimately they just want to make a match and move on, so you're speeding up the process and potentially shifting where they can make the match. If you're very in the dark about your market recruiters can absolutely take advantage of you, though. They are going to be hard selling someone, do what you can to make them hard sell the company for you, not the other way around. And employers get duped by recruiters all the time too.
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Mar 8, 2022 20:41
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Happiness Commando posted:Here is a sample boilerplate you can use to respond to any recruiter cold contact: Oh, this is good, nice.
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Mar 8, 2022 20:51
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I keep getting recruiters even after I've signaled to LinkedIn that I am not looking, and have taken to putting that I'm not looking in several different places on my profile. If you read enough to know that your offer is a good fit for me, you should have read enough to know that I'm off the market!
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Mar 8, 2022 20:53
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:also like you are not obligated to respond to recruiters Your ranking in LinkedIn search results is tied to your response rate and time, or so I've heard My B) / gently caress you number is about 35% above where I'm at right now but there's not much headroom in my current situation; a couple years ago it might have been 60%
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Mar 8, 2022 20:53
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I keep getting recruiters even after I've signaled to LinkedIn that I am not looking, and have taken to putting that I'm not looking in several different places on my profile. If you read enough to know that your offer is a good fit for me, you should have read enough to know that I'm off the market! No one's ever completely off the market unless they're dead.
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Mar 8, 2022 20:59
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jemand posted:No one's ever completely off the market unless they're dead. You don't know my 
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Mar 8, 2022 21:00
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Happiness Commando posted:Here is a sample boilerplate you can use to respond to any recruiter cold contact: That's basically what I've been doing, but in fewer words. Heeey maybe I did something right yay. I'll try to be prepared with a fuckyou number for the tough ones.
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Mar 8, 2022 21:17
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Jumpsuit posted:Recruiter placed me in an interview last week that went really well. Now at salary negotiation point. I was back reading the thread and taking some notes. I think there's some relevant advice i just breezed past, here: Hadlock posted:One strategy when you get the "well your counter is way over our top of band" is simply asking "well if you did take this number to your boss, who would have to sign off on it?" "well, it would be the CXX person" "ok well do they want project N done? you guys picked a great candidate (me) and he wants more than your models show. can you take my counter offer to the CXX and get them to sign off on it?" "well, maybe, but-" "ok so let's do that, float the offer past them, see what they say and let's review then?" "yeah but it'll probably take 2-3 days" "i'm gainfully employed, happy to wait and see what they say" "...ok?" Maybe give that a shot
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Mar 8, 2022 22:23
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Hadlock posted:This is my experience on LinkedIn. I haven't even gotten to the phone call stage with recruiters in like six months, I've seen like 2 opening offers worth scheduling a call in that time, but their business plan was grim My experience is that the majority of recruiters are looking for a quick & easy win, don't know their field etc. You have to quickly determine if it's a reasonable offer or if they're just trying to push anyone into the role. I only really and engage with them if there's evidence they've read my CV and the job looks interesting
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Mar 9, 2022 09:10
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TheParadigm posted:I was back reading the thread and taking some notes. I think there's some relevant advice i just breezed past, here: Thanks, I pulled this one and the recruiter said that the exec would try and push for $110k but it would take a while for leadership signoff, not guaranteed, plus oh here's another role at $100k that I should strongly consider. So I said I'm done here, if they can meet the market let me know but I'm not taking that salary. She immediately texted "let's chat tomorrow? 9am?" Like, so you can talk me into accepting less money? Nah
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Mar 10, 2022 02:35
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Jumpsuit posted:Thanks, I pulled this one and the recruiter said that the exec would try and push for $110k but it would take a while for leadership signoff, not guaranteed, plus oh here's another role at $100k that I should strongly consider. Why would you decline her invite? There’s a great new role at $90k that just opened up.
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Mar 10, 2022 03:43
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Had a somewhat weird interaction: applied for a position, heard back in less than 24 hours they want to give me an interview. Get a message about the interview from one person, and a range from another with the min and the midpoint. I say the mid is substantially under my current pay, and I appreciate their time but I'll have to pass unless they can move significantly outside the mid or would consider me on another pay band. Message back: well what's your range? Without knowing your full total comp package, I can't give you a number I would accept, and given your range I don't think you can get close to my market value. I get back the entire benefit outline plus they tell me the max with the caveat that they rarely bring in someone at that pay. Even that is about 3k under my current salary, but the work seems more interesting, it's totally remote, and the healthcare is cheaper. Am I looking at a desperation play here on their part to talk me down over 20 grand or something?
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Mar 10, 2022 06:33
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Parallelwoody posted:Even that is about 3k under my current salary, but the work seems more interesting, it's totally remote, and the healthcare is cheaper. Am I looking at a desperation play here on their part to talk me down over 20 grand or something? I'd try to work in a pivot where you up your expected salary by a lot to accept the job, similar to the post above about a recruiter fishing. If you're very very desperate to wfh, maybe accept, but i think you should be patient because other gigs like this will pop up.
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Mar 10, 2022 09:03
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I would be willing to consider a small decrease in salary to get fully or mostly remote, if the benefits are decent and the company/role seem solid enough that I'm confident I won't end up job searching again in sic months. Not commuting saves a lot of money and a lot of time (which is money).
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Mar 10, 2022 14:21
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Parallelwoody posted:Had a somewhat weird interaction: applied for a position, heard back in less than 24 hours they want to give me an interview. Get a message about the interview from one person, and a range from another with the min and the midpoint. I say the mid is substantially under my current pay, and I appreciate their time but I'll have to pass unless they can move significantly outside the mid or would consider me on another pay band. Message back: well what's your range? Without knowing your full total comp package, I can't give you a number I would accept, and given your range I don't think you can get close to my market value. I get back the entire benefit outline plus they tell me the max with the caveat that they rarely bring in someone at that pay. Even that is about 3k under my current salary, but the work seems more interesting, it's totally remote, and the healthcare is cheaper. Am I looking at a desperation play here on their part to talk me down over 20 grand or something? If you're in tech and the role is below staff, I'd push again on bumping title and range.
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Mar 10, 2022 14:38
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If you don't care about time spent, tell them you feel the salary is still under what you'd take but you'll be willing to go through the interview. In this case, the sunk cost fallacy works in your favor, if you go through everything they will be more likely to bump up your level once they fall in love. But you should probably decide what a drop-dead number is and don't share it. You don't want to get convinced to take too much of a hit. This does greatly increase the chances of you just wasting your time if they can't hit your number. But its the best way to get them to bend, most corp groups won't bend until they know you're actually The Guy. As to if its worth taking a pay cut, sure there are situations where it's worth it. But just be careful, because not only is it a paycut, but you are also resetting merit/promotion clocks and whatnot too. I don't think you're going to be able to get anyone here to tell you how worth it it is though.
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Mar 10, 2022 15:11
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You'd be a lot better off if you're qualified for the next level and can convince them to interview for that instead. Being at the cap of a salary band is not generally a good thing.
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Mar 10, 2022 16:23
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Yeah that was more my worry, like ok we brought you in at/close to the max so no raise for you, ever. The promotion opportunities seem more available as it's a larger org though, and I get some extra PTO to boot without negotiation, so I think the total comp ends up being a wash. I'll have to do the math on it but I do already have my walk away number. Unfortunately I don't work in tech, although this is a step in that direction. Thanks for the replies, I'll take the interview and mull it over. Worst case is I get some practice in, which I need cause my interviewing skills on the other side of the table aren't great.
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Mar 10, 2022 16:50
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Well just had a first interview with the actual corporate recruiter/HR person, after some back and forth with the outside recruiter. It seemed to go well, and I avoided giving a number. But one thing I noticed is that she had this habit of repeating my name at the end of every second or third sentence. The external recruiter did the same thing. I'm just curious about which lovely self-help book or Ted Talk they got that from...
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Mar 10, 2022 19:49
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Lead out in cuffs posted:Well just had a first interview with the actual corporate recruiter/HR person, after some back and forth with the outside recruiter. It seemed to go well, and I avoided giving a number. How to win friends and influence people?
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Mar 10, 2022 19:53
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Lead out in cuffs posted:Well just had a first interview with the actual corporate recruiter/HR person, after some back and forth with the outside recruiter. It seemed to go well, and I avoided giving a number. That's how you make sure you remember people's names dude
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Mar 10, 2022 20:23
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That's how you make sure you remember people's names, Lead out in cuffs.
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Mar 10, 2022 20:28
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Or they are a psychopath which would be quite a boon in HR recruiting.
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Mar 10, 2022 21:14
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Or the recruiter has a Sales background, which is not uncommon. lovely salespeople using your name to punctuate every sentence is so commonplace it's cliché.
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Mar 10, 2022 21:16
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Yeah whenever someone says my name too many times in one conversation a little "do not ever trust this person, they're trying to trick/persuade you somehow and are probably full of poo poo" alarm goes off in my head. Completely the opposite effect that they're probably expecting by doing that. Then again, I'm also someone who rarely says someone's name while I'm talking to them- it just seems weird to me unless they're in a group and you need to get that one person's attention.
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Mar 10, 2022 21:25
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m0therfux0r posted:Yeah whenever someone says my name too many times in one conversation a little "do not ever trust this person, they're trying to trick/persuade you somehow and are probably full of poo poo" alarm goes off in my head. Completely the opposite effect that they're probably expecting by doing that. Yeah, it has this exact effect on me. Not the worst thing, really, since it helps with getting my defences up. m0therfux0r posted:Then again, I'm also someone who rarely says someone's name while I'm talking to them- it just seems weird to me unless they're in a group and you need to get that one person's attention. Yeah but that's just normal. Literally everybody I know -- co-workers, friends, acquaintances, random people I have to deal with -- is like that.
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Mar 10, 2022 21:53
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I definitely do it face to face with people I haven't met before because I try very hard to remember people's names and it helps me. I'm not gonna do it with someone I know well, that's sociopath poo poo.
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Mar 10, 2022 22:13
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Is it ever really worth it to try asking for a promotion or raise at a current job when you don't have another offer on the table? Small bit of background: in the last year I successfully transferred from non-software engineering to software engineering within my company. I already knew I was underpaid before (~7 years experience as an engineer, $85k salary, peers with similar experience in higher pay bands, and not even a sniff at a promotion for myself in my time there), but now I am seeing my company hire kids with <2 years experience into the same pay band making at much as $10k more than me. I also have friends in the company with half my years of experience getting counter offers to make the same as what I make now. Obviously, the moral of my story is "find a new job, you loving idiot," and believe me, I am trying... but I have not had much luck there yet, and I would like to stop getting screwed from both ends if possible. When I did not get a substantial raise or a promotion in my review this year, I expressed dissatisfaction and sat down with the department head where he told me that "we are totally looking at mid-year changes for you" and that I am apparently the highest paid at my grade in our group, but most/all of it sounds like bullshit or part of the problem (at almost ten years experience, I really don't think I should be in this pay band any more to begin with). I've also checked the internal pay band ranges on our corporate tools and I can plainly see that I am still $25k away from the top end of the band. So without a competing offer, I obviously don't have any leverage if I tell my boss I need to be paid more, so is it worth raising any of these concerns again? Would it be the worst idea in the world to tell them that if something doesn't change they shouldn't expect me to be here for any of those "mid-year adjustments?" They are absolutely desperate for people, which is why they are paying new people so much, so I don't think I should expect any kind of retaliatory lay-off... but you never know.
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Mar 11, 2022 17:11
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Look you're probably hosed but if you want to go about this here's what you ought to do. This will only work if your boss is good and your company doesn't suck so based on what you've posted you're hosed, but this may be useful to other people in this thread. 1) Talk to your boss about what specific concrete gaps you have to get to the next level. Understand and agree on what you need to do to get to the next level. You should have done this in the fall when you expressed disappointment about the non promotion 2) Talk with your boss about how you plan to close these gaps and how your boss will be aware of the fact that you have closed them. Get their commitment to support you. 3) Agree on a timeline with your boss about closing these gaps. 4) Work to close the gaps and document that. Gather information and feedback from other people to support your case. 5) Update your boss on your perceived progress and get their feedback on an ongoing basis. 6) Get to your end of timeline, have a big brag session with your boss about how you learned to do XYZ and improved ABC as agreed, and ask about your promotion. 7) probably:  sorry theres no money!!! oops. possibly: nice here is a new title and  "Other people are making more money than me" is not a productive basis for internal negotiation. You need to justify why you should be getting paid more in an internal negotiation. Is there other stuff going on here? I ask because a software engineer should be able to be alive on linkedin and be inundated with recruiting calls.
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Mar 11, 2022 17:25
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Look you're probably hosed Yeah, pretty much what I figured. There are people in my old group who have it even worse as well... master's degrees and more years of experience making less than me. quote:Is there other stuff going on here? I ask because a software engineer should be able to be alive on linkedin and be inundated with recruiting calls. Not really any more than what I outlined. My BS is from a different field of engineering, which hasn't seemed to matter too much in actually getting interviews. I think the real issue is just that this company basically only develops CRUD apps in old tech stacks, so I just can't claim to have any professional experience in really much of what any other company in the world is looking for. I've had countless interviews at this point, but I can only guess that my limited experience in modern tools is holding me back. All I can do is build a portfolio, which takes time and effort and becomes increasingly harder the more my current job demotivates me. Perhaps another issue is that a lot of recruiters think that any engineer = software engineer, so I keep having recruiters push me to the interview stage on senior/principal/lead SWE roles and then as soon as the hiring manager sees my resume they're like "wtf is this." Gin_Rummy fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Mar 11, 2022 |
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Mar 11, 2022 17:40
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Kyoon's advice is great but to counteract some of the pessimism in the past few months I've given like half a dozen people raises of +10% and some people close to 30%, so I don't think its as a pointless endeavor as it might sound. But you should also be looking around, it's far easier to get a new job with +33% increase than it is to get a 20% raise. Some notes: -I just want to triple down on don't try to compare yourself to other people, but instead position your own value with an implicit "This is what it will cost to replace me". THAT is your actual value. -Go learn some better tech stacks. You don't need to be an expert and that will probably greatly increase your hireability and value.
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Mar 11, 2022 17:56
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Many moons ago I asked for a raise and got a promotion + 25% raise, which I coasted on for a couple years. So it's possible. I was producing double the work output of the rest of my team combined though, and rolled out several initiatives to drag that team into the 21st century. Talked with my old boss recently and apparently most of the code I wrote is still in production a decade later, transferring to the tune of ~$4 billion a year between banks 
Hadlock fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Mar 11, 2022 |
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Mar 11, 2022 18:14
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Man, all they had to do was give you like 10% and you’d have stayed forever.
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Mar 11, 2022 18:29
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So notes on last years achievements/current value: - I completed all my goals, met all deadlines, got some pretty stellar reviews... this was discussed with the dept head a couple of weeks ago when I complained. Part of my issue here is that I have faced another year of "on target" ratings from the supervisor, which even if you compound all of those over the last few years means I should have tracked a promotion by now. - It is a DoD contractor, and they just paid who knows how many tens of thousands to get me a security clearance and sunk almost a year of time into getting me into the classified areas to be productive to the program. Would it be unreasonable to bring up the fact that a cleared person would be pretty hard to replace if I left?
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Mar 11, 2022 19:52
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I'm not an expert by any means, but I think you're missing Lockback's use of the word "implicit." They're aware it sucks to get someone cleared, they just did it. You want to talk about your value. That value can include "and as you know I have clearance." But it should not be "If I leave, you'll have to get someone else clearance."
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Mar 11, 2022 20:10
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