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babyeatingpsychopath posted:Like, they had to move it to get something into their hangar, then moved it back later that day and got a call that it wasn't where they'd left it the day before. By less than ten feet. As a concerned citizen about a nuclear war it makes me happy to hear that preventing them down to the last detai-whats that? A war in Ukraine? Well, that hardly involves us, furthermo-what? We're giving them weapons? Putin is already hinting at nukes? Oh. 
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Mar 14, 2022 13:24
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https://twitter.com/aviationbrk/status/1503292656771870721
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Mar 14, 2022 14:43
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Well now they're just being dicks.
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Mar 14, 2022 15:18
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Mr. Funny Pants posted:Well now they're just being dicks. Unironically this seems to be their plan to cause Kyiv to capitulate. Be just such huge assholes that everyone gets discouraged. Seems like a fascists concept of what a strong man would do to those weak libs to make them cry. I can't recall a war where this has been effective so, uh, it's mostly just lovely behavior.
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Mar 14, 2022 16:42
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https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1503297270355271681?s=20&t=N9MIkPDKVCKNc6Kwyqj6Mg
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Mar 14, 2022 17:01
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:Something like that. Don't remember the museum specifically (could be Museum of Flight in Seattle), but I saw that they had a B-52 on the ramp and asked when they were going to get to that. The docent said "the air force shows up every year to check the tires and change the oil. It's ready to go, but we own it and aren't allowed within a hundred feet of it because of some treaty. It's gotta be RIGHT THERE or we get a call from some Colonel or Captain or General or something." What is the reason for this?
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Mar 14, 2022 17:58
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Cojawfee posted:What is the reason for this? B-52s are considered to be delivery system and thus are a controlled item per arms-reduction treaties.
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Mar 14, 2022 18:01
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azflyboy posted:99% of everything on that show was fabricated bullshit, but they were right about the maintenance logs. I think a personal definition of hell for me would be to work on/star in a bullshit reality tv show. Like one with idiots reacting to "ghosts". Did you know that discovery's Oak Island fuckabout show had eight seasons?  So according to the Kyiv indepedant, Russia has lost 77 planes and 90 helicopters. source Which if even in a Ukrainian ballpark accurate is just...I don't understand how Russia is this bad
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Mar 14, 2022 18:14
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MrYenko posted:B-52s are considered to be delivery system and thus are a controlled item per arms-reduction treaties. That doesn't really explain it though. I am guessing the situation here is something like - all of the B-52s of this type were supposed to be destroyed by the treaty - this one was not because it's in a museum - they got a special exception for it because it's in a museum - but it has to stay in exactly the same spot forever, because the Russian satellites are watching it, and if it moves ten feet that might mean it went out and flew a mission and was parked in not quite the same spot, and that would be a treaty violation Is that about right?
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Mar 14, 2022 18:19
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Nebakenezzer posted:I think a personal definition of hell for me would be to work on/star in a bullshit reality tv show. Like one with idiots reacting to "ghosts". Did you know that discovery's Oak Island fuckabout show had eight seasons? manpads cure helicopters
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Mar 14, 2022 18:22
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Nebakenezzer posted:I think a personal definition of hell for me would be to work on/star in a bullshit reality tv show. Like one with idiots reacting to "ghosts". Did you know that discovery's Oak Island fuckabout show had eight seasons? Get paid money to go to a creepy house and pretend to be scared? Along as the house isn't rotting and there isn't a risk of me falling through floor boards, sign me up.
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Mar 14, 2022 18:24
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Nebakenezzer posted:I think a personal definition of hell for me would be to work on/star in a bullshit reality tv show. Like one with idiots reacting to "ghosts". Did you know that discovery's Oak Island fuckabout show had eight seasons? It has 9 seasons and is still ongoing. I wouldn’t be surprised if they do start bringing in “mediums” to the island to figure out why the ghosts keep moving the treasure. (My dad watches it)
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Mar 14, 2022 18:42
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Sagebrush posted:That doesn't really explain it though. I am guessing the situation here is something like Even if it’s not a treaty violation for it to move ten feet, the USAF being more restrictive about it than their treaty commitments makes sense. It would be really annoying to have the Russians bring up movement of a museum piece in negotiations
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Mar 14, 2022 19:12
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slidebite posted:https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1503297270355271681?s=20&t=N9MIkPDKVCKNc6Kwyqj6Mg Uh, that's more than a MANPADs or at some point the Russians started armoring their Su-25s with glorified tin foil. I'm guessing it's Door #2.
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Mar 14, 2022 20:04
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BIG HEADLINE posted:Uh, that's more than a MANPADs or at some point the Russians started armoring their Su-25s with glorified tin foil. I’m not sure you can just eyeball a damaged SU-25 and make a call that it was or wasn’t a MANPAD. There are several types floating around. The stinger has a ton of energy when it hits a target.
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Mar 14, 2022 20:07
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Nebakenezzer posted:So according to the Kyiv indepedant, Russia has lost 77 planes and 90 helicopters. It's probably not accurate. the war is still happening and neither side is being transparent. A key example of this is somehow catastrophic Russian losses keep getting closer to strategic bits
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Mar 14, 2022 20:13
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big dong wanter posted:It's probably not accurate. the war is still happening and neither side is being transparent. A key example of this is somehow catastrophic Russian losses keep getting closer to strategic bits Yeah this is the only thing that seems certain. Both sides, to include US domestic outlets, are putting enough mis/disinformation into the world that it's really difficult to determine what's really happening. Whatever is really going on I'm very skeptical of the narrative that Ukraine is definitely going to win this if everyone just sends them money and guns. All I can say for sure is that civilians dying loving sucks.
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Mar 14, 2022 20:18
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david_a posted:It has 9 seasons and is still ongoing. I wouldn’t be surprised if they do start bringing in “mediums” to the island to figure out why the ghosts keep moving the treasure. (My dad watches it) Someone get TLC on this poo poo, since I'm sure they can find a morbidly obese polygamist dwarf with 15 kids involved in child beauty pageants to work into the show somehow. At least until it turns out they're a pedophile...
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Mar 14, 2022 20:24
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BIG HEADLINE posted:Uh, that's more than a MANPADs or at some point the Russians started armoring their Su-25s with glorified tin foil. Airplanes do not have “armor” except sometimes immediately around the pilot and fuel tanks. That damage looks like it could easily be caused by a small blast/frag warhead going off immediately behind the right engine.
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Mar 14, 2022 20:54
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big dong wanter posted:It's probably not accurate. the war is still happening and neither side is being transparent. A key example of this is somehow catastrophic Russian losses keep getting closer to strategic bits You can, in fact, take catastrophic losses and still advance. Loucks posted:Yeah this is the only thing that seems certain. Both sides, to include US domestic outlets, are putting enough mis/disinformation into the world that it's really difficult to determine what's really happening. Whatever is really going on I'm very skeptical of the narrative that Ukraine is definitely going to win this if everyone just sends them money and guns. All I can say for sure is that civilians dying loving sucks. Don't know where you get that narrative, but what I've seen is "loving hell, they're holding way better than anybody expected". "Ukraine is definitely going to win" is in the absolute minority, but their chances improve for every day that passes.
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Mar 14, 2022 21:04
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LibCrusher posted:Airplanes do not have “armor” except sometimes immediately around the pilot and fuel tanks. That damage looks like it could easily be caused by a small blast/frag warhead going off immediately behind the right engine. There are also clearly shed/shattered turbine blades which likely turned into additional fragmentation. Not an explosives expert so I'll defer.
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Mar 14, 2022 21:06
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Xakura posted:Don't know where you get that narrative, but what I've seen is "loving hell, they're holding way better than anybody expected". "Ukraine is definitely going to win" is in the absolute minority, but their chances improve for every day that passes. If you don't read the whole post it stands to reason that you won't understand what it means. The bolded part of your post is exactly the sort of thing I was referring to. Really don't want to derail the thread though because objecting to that narrative seems to trigger meltdowns. Again, it's a dire situation and I feel bad for all the poor civilians who are being murdered by both sides in this stupid, stupid conflict.
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Mar 14, 2022 21:14
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Loucks posted:poor civilians who are being murdered by both sides gently caress off
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Mar 14, 2022 21:52
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BIG HEADLINE posted:Uh, that's more than a MANPADs or at some point the Russians started armoring their Su-25s with glorified tin foil. It's like a hand grenade, a small explosive charge but carefully engineered to throw out a lot of deadly shrapnel. Since the shrapnel is thrown out laterally, you can make a guess of the angle of the missile's path, 90 degrees down from the line of hits from the engine up across the tail. The Frog is built to take some hits, but it won't have armor all round like a tank. Here's another example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxAmRrdDOuk
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Mar 14, 2022 22:03
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LibCrusher posted:Airplanes do not have “armor” except sometimes immediately around the pilot and fuel tanks. That damage looks like it could easily be caused by a small blast/frag warhead going off immediately behind the right engine. I’m ignorant of this stuff, but wasn’t that the entire point of that old WWII image of the aircraft where they started armoring the parts that were intact on aircraft that returned from raids? Or is that just entirely apocryphal? I’m an aviation casual I guess.
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Mar 14, 2022 22:16
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Loucks posted:If you don't read the whole post it stands to reason that you won't understand what it means. The bolded part of your post is exactly the sort of thing I was referring to. Really don't want to derail the thread though because objecting to that narrative seems to trigger meltdowns. Again, it's a dire situation and I feel bad for all the poor civilians who are being murdered by both sides in this stupid, stupid conflict. I wonder why treating the aggressor and the victim as equivalent would trigger meltdowns. Must be other people's fault, can't be yours.
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Mar 14, 2022 22:39
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EasilyConfused posted:I wonder why treating the aggressor and the victim as equivalent would trigger meltdowns. The problem is people have a child’s understanding of events. I absolutely do not treat the aggressor and victim as equivalent. Russia and Ukraine are not monolithic entities. The victims are the civilians who are being killed and displaced. The invasion was unequivocally bad. That doesn’t make Good Guys out of the Ukrainian ethnonationalist units that use Nazi imagery and idolize Bandera, who worked with Nazis to kill tens of thousands in pursuit of a Ukrainian ethnostate. I find it difficult to believe that all of the “Russian saboteurs” executed by Ukrainian forces are actually that. I find it awful that men of fighting age are being prevented from fleeing with their families and that the Ukrainian government is arming untrained civilians and throwing them at Russian forces to die. Western liberals cheering schoolteachers and salespeople being fed into the meat grinder like this atrocity is some sort of sporting event is everywhere on social media and intensely disgusting. These are real people being turned into piles of bloody meat. That the Russians are doing Bad Things does not mean that every Ukrainian person and organization can only do Good Things, and it pains me that it’s necessary to articulate this so explicitly to (presumably) adults. Hell, it can even be stated simply: Invading countries is wrong, and so is arming and siding with Nazis. Doubt even that will land though, because the usual response is “Why are you calling all Ukrainians Nazis! You must be on Putin’s payroll!” Anyway gently caress me for not just falling into line with the latest State Dept talking points. Call me a tankie or whatever and get it over with. In the meantime I genuinely am curious about aircraft armor, since I was under the impression that it very much was a thing, albeit constrained by aircraft-specific limitations like impact on gross weight and performance.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:08
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Loucks posted:Anyway gently caress me for not just falling into line with the latest State Dept talking points. Call me a tankie or whatever and get it over with. In the meantime I genuinely am curious about aircraft armor, since I was under the impression that it very much was a thing, albeit constrained by aircraft-specific limitations like impact on gross weight and performance. I think your problem might be that in not falling in line with State Department talking points, you are, knowingly or not, repeating Putin's talking points. It's a country that elected a Jewish head of state with 70% of the vote with the far right party getting like two or three percent of the vote. So although I'm sure it's more complicated than just that, you have to forgive people for being a little skeptical of the Nazi narrative.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:12
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Loucks posted:I feel bad for all the poor civilians who are being murdered by both sides in this stupid, stupid conflict. I missed the part where Ukrainians are murdering poor Russian civilians. Here, have some flying armor a la Antonov A-40 
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Mar 14, 2022 23:16
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Loucks posted:The problem is people have a child’s understanding of events. I absolutely do not treat the aggressor and victim as equivalent. Russia and Ukraine are not monolithic entities. The victims are the civilians who are being killed and displaced. The invasion was unequivocally bad. That doesn’t make Good Guys out of the Ukrainian ethnonationalist units that use Nazi imagery and idolize Bandera, who worked with Nazis to kill tens of thousands in pursuit of a Ukrainian ethnostate. I find it difficult to believe that all of the “Russian saboteurs” executed by Ukrainian forces are actually that. I find it awful that men of fighting age are being prevented from fleeing with their families and that the Ukrainian government is arming untrained civilians and throwing them at Russian forces to die. Western liberals cheering schoolteachers and salespeople being fed into the meat grinder like this atrocity is some sort of sporting event is everywhere on social media and intensely disgusting. These are real people being turned into piles of bloody meat. That the Russians are doing Bad Things does not mean that every Ukrainian person and organization can only do Good Things, and it pains me that it’s necessary to articulate this so explicitly to (presumably) adults. That's great, but none of that happened in this thread, so I don't know why you've decided to make your stand against "the liberals" here. Please show me where in the thread people were defending Nazis and saying that "every Ukrainian person and organization can only do Good Things."
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Mar 14, 2022 23:25
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EasilyConfused posted:That's great, but none of that happened in this thread, so I don't know why you've decided to make your stand against "the liberals" here. Please show me where in the thread people were defending Nazis and saying that "every Ukrainian person and organization can only do Good Things." It was specifically the “gently caress off” and your misrepresentation of a pretty clear “it sucks that the civilians are suffering here” that made it seem worth responding to. If I overstated others’ position mea culpa, but I’ve encountered exactly that sort of bloodthirsty team sports nonsense repeatedly throughout this travesty. Mr. Funny Pants posted:I think your problem might be that in not falling in line with State Department talking points, you are, knowingly or not, repeating Putin's talking points. It's a country that elected a Jewish head of state with 70% of the vote with the far right party getting like two or three percent of the vote. So although I'm sure it's more complicated than just that, you have to forgive people for being a little skeptical of the Nazi narrative. I reject the “Nazi narrative” inasmuch as Putin insists that this bullshit is intended to denazify Ukraine. That’s transparent nonsense. The invasion is an injustice and shouldn’t have happened. However that doesn’t mean that Ukraine doesn’t actually have a nazi problem. Allowing openly nazi organizations like Azov battalion to exist as an official part of the Ukrainian forces is a problem, and the head of state’s religion doesn’t make any difference there. Arming untrained civilians and making them a legal target for Russian soldiers is also a problem, and the head of state’s religion also doesn’t make any difference there. Pointing to VZ and yelling “He’s Jewish!” is irrelevant when his government is making reprehensible choices. Yes, Russia is the aggressor here and is absolutely on the wrong, but that does not make the ethnonationalist elements within Ukraine the good guys, and acknowledging that they exist is not repeating Putin’s talking points. e: I’m not getting an answer about aircraft armor, am I? I’ll go check Google. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Loucks fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Mar 14, 2022 |
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Mar 14, 2022 23:33
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So there are currently threads in: GBS, D&D, C-spam, TFR and GIP about this war. Feel free to take the debate about the reasons for the war and who has what responsibility for it all to whichever one strikes your fancy. I'm sure they will be excited about day 18 of this same exact topic coming up because this will totally be the time it changes everyone's minds and they all agree with you in glorious harmony. Tl;dr: take the politics of the ukraine war to one of the other 5+ threads discussing it.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:45
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Loucks posted:
It's already been answered, so maybe if you stopped building up that pedestal, you'd spot it?
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Mar 14, 2022 23:47
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Plane armor just isn't a thing you really see outside of a dedicated ground strike aircraft like an A-10, SU-27, SU-22, A-7E and similar. Basically its just enough to keep vital systems safe from flak/missle shrapnel and small arms fire from the ground.
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Mar 15, 2022 00:02
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I just watched Lazerpig’s A-10 and Bradley IFV videos yesterday and now I don’t trust anything I was taught as a youth. Anyways that’s my answer to the aircraft armour question. Also, I can’t stand Lazerpig, but I keep watching it!
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Mar 15, 2022 00:07
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Elmnt80 posted:Plane armor just isn't a thing you really see outside of a dedicated ground strike aircraft like an A-10, SU-27, SU-22, A-7E and similar. Basically its just enough to keep vital systems safe from flak/missle shrapnel and small arms fire from the ground. This is true. Or, at least on UH-60 A/Ls the "armor" is 7.62 resistant plating that is installed on the floor prior the aircraft being sent into a combat zone. The pilot's seats are also made out of the same material with cushions on top. There is no armor for the engines, transmission, or hydraulic systems. Having 2 engines and hydraulic systems builds in redundancy to counter damage from small arms, and the main transmission can run for 30 minutes without oil in it.
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Mar 15, 2022 00:10
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Loucks posted:I’m ignorant of this stuff, but wasn’t that the entire point of that old WWII image of the aircraft where they started armoring the parts that were intact on aircraft that returned from raids? Or is that just entirely apocryphal? I’m an aviation casual I guess. IDK what you mean by "the entire point" here, but yes, that image is real and the concept behind it -- "the places that are never shot up on returning planes must be the places where a hit is fatal" -- did lead to insights in armor placement on aircraft and subsequent improvements in survivability. The Su-25 has heavy armor around the cockpit, but the rest of it is just thin aluminum sheet like basically every other airplane. The plane survives missile hits by having two engines, redundant flight control circuits, large control surfaces (so they still have some effectiveness when pieces are shot away) and low wing loading (so damaged parts are not put under high stress). The A-10 was designed for the same mission and has all the same features, but goes even further, e.g. by having two vertical tails so it can still fly with one shot off, placing the engines high above the fuselage so that one exploding is less likely to cut critical hydraulic circuits, and leaving the main wheels sticking out of the bottom of the wing when the gear is retracted so that a belly landing is more survivable. Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Mar 15, 2022 |
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Mar 15, 2022 03:47
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This is probably not the correct thread for this but why is the airspace over Ukraine still contested? It seems that US doctrine for fighting a war is total air superiority and then roll your ground forces. How is Ukraine still able to field an air force and not have all of their air assets and air fields blown up after 2 weeks of fighting?
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Mar 15, 2022 04:17
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Because there's a difference between what Russia has on paper and what is actually in flying/operational condition.
PainterofCrap fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Mar 15, 2022 |
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Mar 15, 2022 04:20
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Because the Russian leader didn't give the Russian forces any time to plan their campaign. E: Also as Painter said above. Jaguars! fucked around with this message at 04:26 on Mar 15, 2022 |
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Mar 15, 2022 04:23
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