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Tuxedo Gin posted:If all your neighbors loving hate you, the issue probably lies with you. ^This If all your neighbors decide to form a mutual alliance because you keep being an rear end in a top hat and scaring them, maybe YOU are the rear end in a top hat.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:13
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Tomn posted:Would not enlarging NATO have guaranteed Russian willingness and ability to fully integrate into the European order peacefully? Eh, it's clear CC's schtick or identity hinges upon a need to make us all aware that the United States has failings and a history of which we are ignorant, and he is not. That's ok, but it's the wrong thread. I do believe that the West completely flubbed the opportunity to integrate Russia after its dissolution and I do hope that those failings are re-evaluated (if there's a chance) after this tragedy.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:14
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Fame Douglas posted:If Putin were actually afraid of NATO, he wouldn't have invaded in the first place. Because this invasion gave the perfect pretext for NATO to intervene. Putin already stated his motivation for invading Ukraine last year, he doesn't consider it to be an independent country. Putin invaded NATO? Must have missed that.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:14
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Is there some specific point you're trying to make? Transnistria happened in 1990, South Ossetia war in 1991.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:14
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Chalks posted:Is this one of the reasons why Putin is seizing all those aircraft? Presumably the ones they don't need can be broken down for parts to keep the others flying longer on internal flights. That's very likely part of it. To be honest, most airplane parts are probably something Russian domestic industry can produce themselves (unless/until sanctions cripple their ability to machine complex bits of metal), although they may not be to the same standards as the original parts were. Since Russia does have a domestic aviation industry, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they have the ability to copy even things like turbine blades for smaller airplanes (unless sanctions cripple that too), but some of the specialized parts (like the first stage fan blades for a 777) are large and complex enough that they're basically impossible to copy. Aeroflot also has a sizeable fleet of Airbus airplanes, and since all of those rely on numerous proprietary computers to be able to fly, it's basically impossible to keep those flying if/when the computers quit for some reason.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:14
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mmkay posted:Is there some specific point you're trying to make? Transnistria happened in 1990, South Ossetia war in 1991. I thought the map was colorful. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 14, 2022 23:15
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This is the West's fault https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1503493545335869446?s=20&t=5kjUVGFK85-8Be6p_bC59g
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Mar 14, 2022 23:15
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Despera posted:Putin invaded NATO? Must have missed that. What? If Putin were actually afraid of NATO being an aggressive force intent on attacking Russia, starting a war of aggression to overtake Ukraine would have given the perfect pretext for NATO to actually attack Russia. Putin knows NATO is a defensive alliance, Puting being afraid of NATO is a dumb talking point people keep repeating.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:15
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Deteriorata posted:Except that you're simultaneously arguing that Ukraine is at fault for doing things that Daddy Russia didn't like. I would never argue that and I’m sorry if that’s the impression I gave. I think that it is good and right that Euromaidan happened, just as, in my mugging example, I think it is good to leave houses. I really don’t think that saying: well, a bad actor may not have behaved identically given certain other circumstances, is excusing that bad action. But maybe that is just a point of disagreement.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:16
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Tuxedo Gin posted:If all your neighbors loving hate you, the issue probably lies with you. jewish citizens in nazi germany. Idioms are great for gradeschool. not so much complex international geopolitics. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 14, 2022 23:16
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smug n stuff posted:Very obviously not! But like, if I never go outside, I will never be mugged, right? That doesn’t make it my fault if I’m mugged, right? I don't think this type of causality is a useful thing to think or talk about. Yes, Ukraine could've avoided being invaded by Russia by giving Russia everything it wanted without being invaded. Sure. And? When it comes to NATO expansion, you haven't even established the causality. As Tomn put, if NATO didn't ever expand east but Ukraine still revolted against the Russian-aligned government and tried to realign itself economically and politically with the EU, would Russia have not invaded? I think it's pretty drat likely it would've, from Putin's repeated statements about Russia's imperial heritage and rights over the last 15 years. Tom Clancy is Dead fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Mar 14, 2022 |
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Mar 14, 2022 23:16
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Fame Douglas posted:What? If Putin were actually afraid of NATO being an aggressive force intent on attacking Russia, starting a war of aggression to overtake Ukraine would have given the perfect pretext for NATO to actually attack Russia. ...I'm agreeing with you. I'm saying Putin and Russia are the clear agressors and using NATO as an excuse, and even if they weren't if the countries around you decide to team up in fear of you then you are the baddie. But this war is about Putin rebuilding Greater Russia, which he stated openly
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Mar 14, 2022 23:17
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Tomn posted:
Of course not! I’m suggesting that if you go outside and get mugged, that is some explanation for why you got mugged. But it remains entirely the mugger’s fault for mugging you.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:17
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TulliusCicero posted:...I'm agreeing with you. I'm saying Putin and Russia are the clear agressors and using NATO as an excuse, and even if they weren't if the countries around you decide to team up in fear of you then you are the baddie. I quoted the wrong post, already fixed.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:18
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smug n stuff posted:Of course not! I’m suggesting that if you go outside and get mugged, that is some explanation for why you got mugged. But it remains entirely the mugger’s fault for mugging you. The mugging would have happened either way in this situation, because the person doing the mugging doesn't consider your property your own, but theirs instead. But in front of court, he'll invent all kinds of reasons for why the mugging was justified.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:19
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smug n stuff posted:I would never argue that and I’m sorry if that’s the impression I gave. I think that it is good and right that Euromaidan happened, just as, in my mugging example, I think it is good to leave houses. I really don’t think that saying: well, a bad actor may not have behaved identically given certain other circumstances, is excusing that bad action. But maybe that is just a point of disagreement. You argued that getting rid of a guy who was siphoning billiobs of dollars from the state treasury was bad
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Mar 14, 2022 23:19
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TulliusCicero posted:"Why did you form an alliance so I wouldn't invade you?! I just wanted to send you puppies and kittens!" Former defense secretary William Perry made this same "unhinged" argument just a few years ago: quote:“In the last few years, most of the blame can be pointed at the actions that Putin has taken. But in the early years I have to say that the United States deserves much of the blame,” Perry said, speaking at a Guardian Live event in London. In 2008, when the U.S. and the then-NATO Secretary-General Ukrainian promised Ukraine accession to NATO, then-career diplomat William Burns (who is now Director of the CIA) wrote the following in a memo to then-Secretary of State Rice: quote:Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all redlines for the Russian elite (not just Putin). In more than two and a half years of conversations with key Russian players . . . I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests. And, of course, back in 1997, George Kennan, "Father of Containment," warned that NATO expansion would help fan the flames of revanchist nationalism in Russia: quote:[B]luntly stated…expanding NATO would be the most fateful error of American policy in the entire post-Cold War era. Such a decision may be expected to inflame the nationalistic, anti-Western and militaristic tendencies in Russian opinion; to have an adverse effect on the development of Russian democracy; to restore the atmosphere of the cold war to East-West relations, and to impel Russian foreign policy in directions decidedly not to our liking... I don't think anyone here is arguing that NATO expansion justifies Putin's illegal, immoral, murderous invasion of another country - nothing justifies that. But to characterize examining the U.S. and NATO's role in setting the stage for this conflict as "unhinged" seems unfair to me. It's something that very smart people who have spent their careers examining Russian geopolitics have been warning about for decades.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:21
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smug n stuff posted:Of course not! I’m suggesting that if you go outside and get mugged, that is some explanation for why you got mugged. But it remains entirely the mugger’s fault for mugging you. ...So Ukraine should never be able to do anything outside of its bounds artifically set on them by Russia, even though it is a country and people with their own agency? Like they can't choose to pursue their own interests? Do you see why this falls apart? It's the same reason why I should feel comfortable going outside without fear of being mugged. I have agency that has NOTHING to do with the mugger or their intentions.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:22
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You know, if I suddenly was president of Russia a decade ago or so, I guess I would absolutely prefer my neigbours to not have NATO bases, even if I don't have any kind of imperialistic tendencies and am perfectly fine with all those nations and peoples taking charge of their own fates. I mean, NATO is dominated by the US, and I might worry that at some point, the US might have imperialistic intent towards Russia , so I'd rather avoid my neighbours doing that. But of course, I'd try to do that by trying to cooperated on an equal level, give those nations good trade deals, actively decry and reject any kind of revanchist or imperialistic talk about tsarist Russia or whatever, maybe if I can manage it with internal politics even do some Gestures acknowledging the crimes committed against such nations like the Holdomor, talk about healing the wounds of the past, etc. etc. All the while the US, presumably, might still have done many of the same lovely stunts they have pulled, and as Russian leader, I might have said that 'It is a shame that the US is making the same mistakes we know so well in trying to go on such adventures' etc. etc. And a shame that those in the US orbit have to pay in money and blood for these adventures. I mean, perhaps naïve, perhaps it'd never get sold. But it can't have been less effective than this I suppose.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:23
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If Putin were actually afraid of NATO being an expansionist force, he wouldn't have invaded. I don't think smart people writing op-eds on this changes that.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:23
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1st_Panzer_Div. posted:jewish citizens in nazi germany. Apples and oranges. You can't compare an oppressed stateless minority to a regional power with the freedom to choose their approach to relationships with their neighbors. Russia could have, at any time, decided to approach foreign relations in a non-hostile manner. They could have worked to foster good will in their neighbors rather than antagonistic bullying.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:23
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The issue fundamentally is with Russian internal politics then. Their neighbors want protection from them, they want their neighbors to remain vulnerable and weak. These are not equivalent positions.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:23
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Majorian posted:Former defense secretary William Perry made this same "unhinged" argument just a few years ago: So here's the absolute truth: I don't give a flying gently caress what the US thinks of Ukraine, or what Russia thinks of Ukraine, I care about what the ELECTED government of Ukraine by Ukrainians want to do. Jesus loving christ, not every global political issue is about the US vs Russia/ China whatever the gently caress. OTHER COUNTRIES EXIST and have rights and goals themselves. Wierd thought that  What gives Russia the right to rein in Ukraine's agency? Because they are big and scary? The Cold War split of the world is inherently loving ethnocentric and stupid, and needs to die. Putin needs to give it the gently caress up, and move the gently caress on, but he can't because just like every chud leader in this hell timeline, hes a loving selfish boomer whose ego is bigger than his brain. TulliusCicero fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Mar 14, 2022 |
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Mar 14, 2022 23:26
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Fame Douglas posted:If Putin were actually afraid of NATO being an expansionist force, he wouldn't have invaded. I don't think smart people writing op-eds on this changes that. I don't see how that follows. Ukraine is not a NATO member.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:26
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smug n stuff posted:Of course not! I’m suggesting that if you go outside and get mugged, that is some explanation for why you got mugged. But it remains entirely the mugger’s fault for mugging you. What are you doing? This is the definition of victim blaming, it leads to pretty disgusting implications. There can perfectly be no explanation as to why you got mugged. Assholes exist. Irrational behaviour is completely possible. Russia's attack on Ukraine is completely irrational by almost any metric you want to judge it by, just on the direct human cost alone.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:26
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Majorian posted:I don't see how that follows. Ukraine is not a NATO member. I don't see how that follows. Then why would Russia be threatened by Ukrainian NATO membership?
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Mar 14, 2022 23:27
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TulliusCicero posted:...So Ukraine should never be able to do anything outside of its bounds artifically set on them by Russia, even though it is a country and people with their own agency? Like they can't choose to pursue their own interests? I think everyone agrees it's unfair to Ukraine. Hindsight is 20/20 but the reasonable choice would have been to wait until Putin dies and get a better climate or Russia being in civil turmoil before starting NATO talks. Like what is another 15 years of waiting, on a scale of national history and future for Ukraine? If there's a crazed mugger with a knife outside today, maybe wait until tomorrow to go for a hike even though, yes it's unfair for your freedom not to be able to hike right now.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:27
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alex314 posted:When people complain about "NATO encroachment", or something similar in that vein I usually counter with massive extension of Russian armed presence in Kaliningrad, and new Russian bases built in Belarus. The usual narrative is of poor threatened Russia that's completely surrounded, and as usual completely omits that a country might feel a bit threatened by their bigger neighbour planting nukes by their border. NATO didn't plant any nukes in Lithuania to justify that kind of escalation. PEW poll so maybe take with a grain of salt: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/02/09/nato-seen-favorably-across-member-states/ These are 2021 numbers and they are likely much higher now.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:27
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TulliusCicero posted:So here's the absolute truth: He does this all the time bring up some musty old quotes before everyone realized putin was some expansionist thug
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Mar 14, 2022 23:28
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Rad Russian posted:I think everyone agrees it's unfair to Ukraine. Hindsight is 20/20 but the reasonable choice would have been to wait until Putin dies and get a better climate or Russia being in civil turmoil before starting NATO talks. Like what is another 15 years on a scale of national history and future for Ukraine? If there's a crazed mugger with a knife outside today, maybe wait until tomorrow to go for a hike even though, yes it's unfair for your freedom not to be able to hike right now. People here are saying that Putin would have invaded either way. NATO membership wasn't on the table for Ukraine either way, and they decided to pursue both NATO and EU membership after being invaded by Russia by themselves. Waiting wasn't an option. Russia wants to restore Russia to its former "glory"
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Mar 14, 2022 23:28
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Jesus christ https://twitter.com/olex_scherba/status/1503338513223516161?s=20&t=PSe0HKposM1cU6lqj0WqpA
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Mar 14, 2022 23:28
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poo poo, now I'm afraid to go outside
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Mar 14, 2022 23:29
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the popes toes posted:poo poo, now I'm afraid to go outside If you go outside, you deserve getting mugged. Not saying the mugger was right, just explaining that what you did lead to the mugging.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:30
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Fame Douglas posted:I don't see how that follows. Then why would Russia be threatened by Ukrainian NATO membership? Russia would not be threatened. But Putin's cleptocracy is threatened by prosperity and security getting ever closer to the Russian borders, both geographically and culturally. That's why he wants to maintain a buffer of autocratic cleptocartic client states around Russia.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:30
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Russian Offensive Campaign Assessment, March 14quote:March 14, 5:00 pm ET So it looks like we're doomed to have a thread full of incessant bickering for the next week as nothing much is going to happen for a while other than cities continuing to be pounded to rubble, unless Ukraine starts counterattacking.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:30
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I'm not sure giving troops Chinese MREs is helpful. Steve1989 said that the only times he got sick from eating MREs were from chinese MREs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n96m5lB8nzA And this is someone who's eaten Civil war hardtack, and Boer war beef broth.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:31
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Rad Russian posted:I think everyone agrees it's unfair to Ukraine. Hindsight is 20/20 but the reasonable choice would have been to wait until Putin dies and get a better climate or Russia being in civil turmoil before starting NATO talks. Like what is another 15 years of waiting, on a scale of national history and future for Ukraine? If there's a crazed mugger with a knife outside today, maybe wait until tomorrow to go for a hike even though, yes it's unfair for your freedom not to be able to hike right now. Because you want in the EU or at least have a partnership with them and every time you try and move closer to that the big rear end in a top hat next door invades you in some way or another.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:31
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Saint Celestine posted:I'm not sure giving troops Chinese MREs is helpful. Steve1989 said that the only times he got sick from eating MREs were from chinese MREs. I don't think some influencer is a source to go by. I'm pretty sure the Chinese are able to produce rations.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:32
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Saint Celestine posted:I'm not sure giving troops Chinese MREs is helpful. Steve1989 said that the only times he got sick from eating MREs were from chinese MREs. the more recent ones were a lot more edible though, he genuinely liked the chicken curry in the type 17
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Mar 14, 2022 23:32
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:Because you want in the EU or at least have a partnership with them and every time you try and move closer to that the big rear end in a top hat next door invades you in some way or another. Akshually, wanting to improve your country is like not being able to take a hike. Putin doesn't want you to take a hike, hence you shouldn't.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:33
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