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Charity Porno posted:Ozark and numerous other examples also. It's just a hot take for engagement's sake. BTW that discussion about Gul Dukat and people thinking he was a good guy, there were plenty of times during my recent DS9 watch where I thought "huh, they really did make it seem like he was gonna be redeemable at certain points" so I'm betting that watching some episodes of DS9 while missing others could easily put you in that mindset of "oh, he probably got better by the end." Big oops if you didn't catch, oh, Season 6 and 7.
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Mar 14, 2022 22:08
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Charity Porno posted:I dunno, I think Trek in general in pretty collectivist in nature. It's about a group of people who work together to accomplish their shared goals while also remaining individuals. I think this weird complaint that they paint loss of an individual as "bad" is frankly bizarre because IT IS BAD. What are you talking about? Trek is about military people, so of course they work closely together as a team.
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Mar 14, 2022 22:30
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Kurzon posted:What are you talking about? Trek is about military people, so of course they work closely together as a team. Oh for sure, real life militaries are known for their spectacular teamwork don't look at any current events Also Starfleet is a military (arguably) but the United Federation of Planets is not, and they have achieved a lot collectively Charity Porno fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Mar 14, 2022 |
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Mar 14, 2022 22:51
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The Bloop posted:Gul Dukat is a great villain but the point being made is that if you're target audience doesn't catch the satire then you're doing it badly or too subtly That's absolutely the worst measure of good satire, satire should be misinterpreted by a portion of the audience and have the people who get it elbowing them and going "no you idiot". All of the famous historical satires were as readily misinterpreted in their time as Starship Troopers and Fight Club. A satire that everyone gets because it's winking and nudging every five minutes is a parody and not nearly as effective because everyone is cued to be in on the joke. And no, this isn't the same thing as the black-and-white aliens from "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield". You're fooling yourself if you didn't think that in the 60s there were people who watched that episode and thought to themselves "well sure, that makes sense" as they were ironing their klan sheets. That's no justification to go broader and dumber until you hit the absolute bottom of the barrel. Typical Pubbie posted:Writers can't let reactionary idiots dictate how they write their characters. Lowest common denominator writing is a plague on modern trek. Deeply ironic name/post combo, love it Charity Porno posted:Oh for sure, real life militaries are known for their spectacular teamwork don't look at any current events Like half of Picard's speeches in season one of TNG are about how humanity got to where it is by finally getting over being selfish needy babies and working together for the greater good, especially in "The Neutral Zone" which is contrasted directly with a then-contemporary Greed Is Good 80s Guy as a practically atavistic throwback. McSpanky fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Mar 14, 2022 |
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Mar 14, 2022 23:37
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We're also robbed of clipshows because there's only really one plot to refer back to per season, and although it could be summarized handily in a sentence, the footage of the event is spread over hours. There are neither enough plots to want to refer to in a clipshow format, nor ever a large enough episode order where budget and time can be saved by a clipshow now and then. If you saw the first couple episodes of this Disco season, then jumped back in previous episode and asked "what'd I miss?" it's like missing a scene after the commercial break of a old-fashioned episode, you'll lose some details but the general thrust isn't far from where you left off. Actually bad example because in the old way after a commercial break might well be a scene where things Happen or the situation Changes.
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Mar 15, 2022 00:20
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The message of Let That Be Your Last Battlefield is atrocious lol, it’s absolutely pro cop and by extension pro KKK. The terrorists fighting for their lower caste to be recognized as equals are treated as morally equivalent to the agents of the apartheid state. It’s literally the same milquetoast white liberal bullshit “I support your right to protest, but please, let’s all be civil and respectful first and foremost” that MLK was at that very time decrying. It’s an appeal to order with the express goal of denying justice.
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Mar 15, 2022 00:33
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DaveKap posted:BTW that discussion about Gul Dukat and people thinking he was a good guy, there were plenty of times during my recent DS9 watch where I thought "huh, they really did make it seem like he was gonna be redeemable at certain points" so I'm betting that watching some episodes of DS9 while missing others could easily put you in that mindset of "oh, he probably got better by the end." Big oops if you didn't catch, oh, Season 6 and 7. I've always been highly skeptical of the writers claiming he was always meant to be seen as Very Bad because of that, or if they're somehow being sincere they sure messed up writing it Before the Dominion War there was an ongoing thread about Bajoran-Cardassian relations slowly thawing and as the main Cardassian character in the show he was the face of that at least a couple of times - the end of 'Explorers' immediately comes to mind, it's not meant to be nagging in your mind in that episode that Dukat is villainous
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Mar 15, 2022 00:55
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Dukat is absolutely the villain in Explorers. He denying Bajoran claims to ancient space exploration in a way that is obviously racist while warning Sisko away from investigating. At the end it becomes clear the Cardassian establishment knew all along that the Bajorans had ancient spaceships. So he’s not just racist, he’s a loving liar too. The end of the episode is funny because Dukat has to eat crow and congratulate Sisko diplomatically, even though he hates him. Not everything the guy does has to be literal genocide for him to be a colossal piece of poo poo. Far more whitewashy Dukat stuff is the episodes where he’s been busted to a downtrodden space pirate type. He’s still an rear end in a top hat in those episodes, but he’s an underdog too, which lets him build a little sympathy with the main characters and the audience.
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Mar 15, 2022 02:10
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All these "The Borg might actually be good" and "The Borg want whats best for all of us" makes me wonder what they'd do if they achieved their goal of assimilating the entire galaxy. Obviously eventually they'd figure out how to get to other galaxies or at least the 10-C area, but would it be a huge galaxy filled with cubes doing nothing until then? Would they plant gardens? Would they use up the entire galaxies energy trying to get an omega particle stable?
pik_d fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Mar 15, 2022 |
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Mar 15, 2022 03:31
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The villain is more evil if he has a shot at redemption and knowingly turns it down. It's pretty long character arch bad guy poo poo.
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Mar 15, 2022 04:29
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As written so far, I'd expect they'd try to grow and assimilate other relevant tier super-civs, until it reaches whatever the level above that is. Not sure if they'd actively seek totally homogeneity across the universe or if it only comes to that once all possible "free" and assimilated resource real estate is used up. The Kaylon in Orville were very explicit in their desire to start killing competing lifeforms to ensure maximal resources for a predicted exponential growth. I think late-stage universe entropy shenanigans would be the logical next big thing to conquer for them, if not, figure out how to adapt to a universe so cold, old, and disordered to not really sustain matter so good, let alone life.
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Mar 15, 2022 04:30
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pik_d posted:All these "The Borg might actually be good" and "The Borg want whats best for all of us" makes me wonder what they'd do if they achieved their goal of assimilating the entire galaxy. Obviously eventually they'd figure out how to get to other galaxies or at least the 10-C area, but would it be a huge galaxy filled with cubes doing nothing until then? Would they plant gardens? Would they use up the entire galaxies energy trying to get an omega particle stable? A galaxy populated with nothing but Borg and Kazon with the Borg poking their heads in occasionally to see if they're worth assimilating yet.
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Mar 15, 2022 04:34
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It's entirely possible all life and history, including this thread and everyone in it, are merely the half-second delusional memories of a Kazon brain spontaneously tunneled into existence from the void of space before it dies or evaporates into chaos.
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Mar 15, 2022 04:47
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It would have been interesting if waking up without her residual Borg tech had affected Seven meaningfully.
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Mar 15, 2022 05:06
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:It would have been interesting if waking up without her residual Borg tech had affected Seven meaningfully. The fact that it didn't raises an interesting question: how different is her sensorium from human baseline? She woke up in a strange room after having been blown up along with the Stargazer. "Holy poo poo I just died" and "where the gently caress am I" are two very commanding thoughts that might cause someone to not take careful stock of themselves, but only if the sensory differences weren't so great that they'd be immediately obvious. Is her ocular implant close enough to a human eye that having it replaced wouldn't be immediately obvious? Does she have some level of conscious insight into her internal systems that would be immediately missed, or is it far enough in the background that she wouldn't notice it's gone until she reached for it? I actually really hope that this gets touched on, even with just a throwaway line like "I'm sorry I'm late. My cortical implants normally tell me exactly what time it is, down to the microsecond. Their absence is... uncomfortable."
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Mar 15, 2022 05:55
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Seven's whole left eye was a prosthetic and I swear there was a POV shot on Voyager at some point that showed she still sees the world in in that weird green Borg-vision.
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Mar 15, 2022 05:58
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8one6 posted:Seven's whole left eye was a prosthetic and I swear there was a POV shot on Voyager at some point that showed she still sees the world in in that weird green Borg-vision. I think that was after The Doctor tweaked it to let her see cloaked aliens.
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Mar 15, 2022 06:06
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Didn't they also need her eye to do some special sensory  in the episode where Harry Kim crashed Voyager with the quantum slipstream?
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Mar 15, 2022 07:04
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McSpanky posted:Didn't they also need her eye to do some special sensory They needed her interplexing beacon which i guess is in the same junk her eye is connected to.
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Mar 15, 2022 08:31
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skasion posted:The message of Let That Be Your Last Battlefield is atrocious lol, it’s absolutely pro cop and by extension pro KKK. The terrorists fighting for their lower caste to be recognized as equals are treated as morally equivalent to the agents of the apartheid state. It’s literally the same milquetoast white liberal bullshit “I support your right to protest, but please, let’s all be civil and respectful first and foremost” that MLK was at that very time decrying. It’s an appeal to order with the express goal of denying justice.
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Mar 15, 2022 12:18
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FlamingLiberal posted:Yes and when i watched the episode a year or so ago, I felt like the crew was way more hostile to the slave rebellion leader than to the slave hunter which was not a good look Funniest part of that episode is the message from starfleet assuring the racist cop that he will win his case against the rebel if he will just let the federation have its procedural fig leaf. This is the same episode that introduced the concept of the galactic south. There is one good part where Kirk and Spock they can't tell the difference between the two based on their skin patterns, which pisses off the racist. Typical Pubbie fucked around with this message at 13:34 on Mar 15, 2022 |
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Mar 15, 2022 13:31
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blastron posted:The fact that it didn't raises an interesting question: how different is her sensorium from human baseline? She woke up in a strange room after having been blown up along with the Stargazer. "Holy poo poo I just died" and "where the gently caress am I" are two very commanding thoughts that might cause someone to not take careful stock of themselves, but only if the sensory differences weren't so great that they'd be immediately obvious. Is her ocular implant close enough to a human eye that having it replaced wouldn't be immediately obvious? Does she have some level of conscious insight into her internal systems that would be immediately missed, or is it far enough in the background that she wouldn't notice it's gone until she reached for it? Presumably her remaining implants are either essential for her continued existence or sufficiently beneficial for her to keep around. It would have been/would be cool to see her react to a stock human body and a good plot excuse if she needs to get Worfed into some walls.
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Mar 15, 2022 22:10
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speak of the devil where the hell is worf? nobody seemed more eager to be in new trek than michael dorne, like, dude was ready to hop onto ~blasphemous fan projects~. at this point i have to assume he isn't showing up in new treks because he was trying to jump the gun and pissed somebody off edit quote:In 2399, a photo of Worf was shown on an FNN media broadcast prior to a holo-interview with Admiral Picard. Soon after, this retired Admiral Picard still considered Worf a loyal colleague who would not hesitate to join him on a mission if asked. (PIC: "Remembrance", "Maps and Legends") weak, but that's something. if he doesn't show up LDS eventually though, something is up.
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Mar 15, 2022 22:28
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Khanstant posted:speak of the devil where the hell is worf? nobody seemed more eager to be in new trek than michael dorne, like, dude was ready to hop onto ~blasphemous fan projects~. at this point i have to assume he isn't showing up in new treks because he was trying to jump the gun and pissed somebody off I feel like they're holding off on an Enterprise-F reveal with Captain Worf in the chair. "Sir, there's another ship coming through.... It's the Enterprise!" <cue triumphant TNG theme>
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Mar 15, 2022 22:30
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Khanstant posted:speak of the devil where the hell is worf? nobody seemed more eager to be in new trek than michael dorne, like, dude was ready to hop onto ~blasphemous fan projects~. at this point i have to assume he isn't showing up in new treks because he was trying to jump the gun and pissed somebody off I have to assume they either don't want to eat the crow over the horrible Disco Klingons and have Worf show up looking like he should, or they don't want to deal with the pitchforks in they try and act like Klingons have always been orcs.
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Mar 15, 2022 22:34
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Khanstant posted:speak of the devil where the hell is worf? nobody seemed more eager to be in new trek than michael dorne, like, dude was ready to hop onto ~blasphemous fan projects~. at this point i have to assume he isn't showing up in new treks because he was trying to jump the gun and pissed somebody off And yeah, Dorne's absence is weird. I liked his pitch for a spinoff a while back. Eimi posted:I have to assume they either don't want to eat the crow over the horrible Disco Klingons and have Worf show up looking like he should, or they don't want to deal with the pitchforks in they try and act like Klingons have always been orcs. I know a lot of people don't like Disco's additions to the canon, but none actually bother me much except the Klingon makeup which should probably be ignored.
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Mar 15, 2022 22:37
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oh that. i mean, okay, i just well assumed that DISCO klingons looked like DISCO klingons during that pre-TOS period. Then they looked like they did in TOS. Then they looked how they look in TNG. They could look the same now, or be radically different physically, and at this point I don't think anyone ever has any right to complain or remark on the fact that the Klingon species Changes Sometimes, and No, They Don't Talk About It and Neither Should You. Less they say the better, at max lampshade it once casually and carry on. am i being an outlier about that? feels pretty average perspective to me. but this could be one of the sticking points for the Trek Hate Industry I don't engage with. hope not, give us back klingons lol its getting weird
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Mar 15, 2022 22:42
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Khanstant posted:oh that. i mean, okay, i just well assumed that DISCO klingons looked like DISCO klingons during that pre-TOS period. Then they looked like they did in TOS. Then they looked how they look in TNG. They could look the same now, or be radically different physically, and at this point I don't think anyone ever has any right to complain or remark on the fact that the Klingon species Changes Sometimes, and No, They Don't Talk About It and Neither Should You. Less they say the better, at max lampshade it once casually and carry on. That'd be fine I guess, but it's still jarring in a way that their revised take on the Ferengi isn't. Also, Lower Decks has shown Klingons post-Disco, and they look like they did in the 1990s, which I assume is what'll happen if they show up in a live action show.
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Mar 15, 2022 22:44
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Khanstant posted:oh that. i mean, okay, i just well assumed that DISCO klingons looked like DISCO klingons during that pre-TOS period. Then they looked like they did in TOS. Then they looked how they look in TNG. They could look the same now, or be radically different physically, and at this point I don't think anyone ever has any right to complain or remark on the fact that the Klingon species Changes Sometimes, and No, They Don't Talk About It and Neither Should You. Less they say the better, at max lampshade it once casually and carry on. ENT already explained TOS Klingons, and before the augment virus made them more human, they looked exactly like TNG era Klingons did. It's a massive continuity change for the worse. Nichael posted:I know a lot of people don't like Disco's additions to the canon, but none actually bother me much except the Klingon makeup which should probably be ignored. Honestly I think almost all of their makeup decisions are loving horrible, at least concerning classic races. I hate what they did to Andorian after ENT perfected them and their Orions look like they are made of plastic. I guess their tellarite change is...okay?
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Mar 15, 2022 22:47
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Eimi posted:ENT already explained TOS Klingons, and before the augment virus made them more human, they looked exactly like TNG era Klingons did. It's a massive continuity change for the worse.
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Mar 15, 2022 22:49
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Nichael posted:The Orions are weird. I don't really notice the Andorian change though. The oddest Tellarite change in new Trek is Prodigy's, which is funny because that's probably the most canonically consistent show. They have extremely sunken in cheeks and the same sculpted plastic look the Orions do. It's really obvious if you look at a picture of them compared to Shran.
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Mar 15, 2022 22:51
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Nichael posted:That'd be fine I guess, but it's still jarring in a way that their revised take on the Ferengi isn't. Martok's skull doesn't have the weirdly elongated backpiece of the Disco Klingons and the ridges look like they could line up okay with either design, so there's that I guess
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Mar 15, 2022 22:55
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Eimi posted:I have to assume they either don't want to eat the crow over the horrible Disco Klingons and have Worf show up looking like he should, or they don't want to deal with the pitchforks in they try and act like Klingons have always been orcs. yes this is a normal thing that a normal producer would definitely agonize over rather than just slap the old makeup on the established character I love the idea that Disco is universally believed to be an unmitigated disaster and the producers do damage control and the writers of other Trek shows just clown on it all day The Bloop posted:We wouldn't still be talking about disco Klingons if they were just different They were but this thread also talks regularly about the most ridiculous things so I'm not sure we wouldn't be having a weekly discussion about how terrible it is and how the producers are hiding in their basements in shame even if they were not terrible Charity Porno fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Mar 15, 2022 |
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Mar 15, 2022 22:56
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We wouldn't still be talking about disco Klingons if they were just different They were terrible Would have been excusable as a weekly alien but those rubber masks for a core race were just embarrassing
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Mar 15, 2022 22:59
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Quality aside, the idea that Worf or TNG era Klingons would look different now because Disco era Klingons looked different is goofy when we have the in-universe explanation that Klingons looked different at times because they were screwing with genetic engineering.
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Mar 15, 2022 23:03
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https://twitter.com/Variety/status/1503854194343571459
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Mar 15, 2022 23:05
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we'd be talking about them if they were the exact same. all the nasty throat talking dominating large chunks of runtime. disco season 1 ep 1 makes my stomach queasy, it's like someone chewing food with their mouth open right in your ear. I don't know the first thing about speaking Klingon, but I know before disco everyone managed to do it without grossing me the gently caress out.Charity Porno posted:Quality aside, the idea that Worf or TNG era Klingons would look different now because Disco era Klingons looked different is goofy when we have the in-universe explanation that Klingons looked different at times because they were screwing with genetic engineering. They made-up an in-universe reason then and they can do it again lol
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Mar 15, 2022 23:06
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with no attachment to TOS whatsoever, I'm down to meet kirk for the first real time
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Mar 15, 2022 23:08
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If they are bringing out Kirk after only one season there goes what little faith I had in SNW not sucking.
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Mar 15, 2022 23:10
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Khanstant posted:we'd be talking about them if they were the exact same. all the nasty throat talking dominating large chunks of runtime. disco season 1 ep 1 makes my stomach queasy, it's like someone chewing food with their mouth open right in your ear. I don't know the first thing about speaking Klingon, but I know before disco everyone managed to do it without grossing me the gently caress out. It's definitely the bad prosthetic teeth but I like the way T'kuvma says "Kahlesh" quote:They made-up an in-universe reason then and they can do it again lol You know, I was about to ask when they'd ever had established characters come back with completely different makeup but then I remembered the TOS Klingon trio in DS9. Either way I think it's unhinged to say Worf would come back with Disco makeup
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