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It's not really relevant to this conversation, but just had a smile remembering that in the old placemats by a certain point the entire surface of wedge's x wing was covered in victory marks
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Mar 16, 2022 00:03
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I always just took it that the Empire pumped out millions of cheap plastic fighters because they could, while the rebels had a far smaller fleet of more robust, older ships.
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Mar 16, 2022 00:04
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Wedge takes a hit and survives in ANH (Luke kinda does too) but I don't think we ever see a TIE survive anything do we? The hit on Wedge really is a stand out. I personally chalk it up to a kind of observation bias, we just don't care about TIE pilots' experiences. In ANH, and also the atmosphere battle in rogue one, ties and x-wings seem very evenly matched. I think the TIEs might even be outnumbered in those and are still winning the dog fight Video games have made y-wings sound all tough skinned, but they may as well be made of paper
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Mar 16, 2022 00:33
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Wedge takes a hit and survives in ANH (Luke kinda does too) but I don't think we ever see a TIE survive anything do we? Vader's TIE survives a direct collision at the end of A New Hope.
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Mar 16, 2022 00:52
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Wedge takes a hit and survives in ANH (Luke kinda does too) but I don't think we ever see a TIE survive anything do we? Kylo survives his TIE eating poo poo so maybe they have really good crumple zones.
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Mar 16, 2022 01:17
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The rebels have a couple of dozen fighters and it's unknown how many TIE fighters the death star has but it's a military installation the size of a continent so there's no way it also has only a couple of dozen fighters. The fact that any rebel ships survive at all suggests they're chewing through legions of TIE fighters just offscreen
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Mar 16, 2022 01:28
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2house2fly posted:The rebels have a couple of dozen fighters and it's unknown how many TIE fighters the death star has but it's a military installation the size of a continent so there's no way it also has only a couple of dozen fighters. The fact that any rebel ships survive at all suggests they're chewing through legions of TIE fighters just offscreen no, they are not wiping out legions of tie fighters off screen. they dont consider the fighters a threat to the death star, so they just send a roughly equal number of TIEs to deal with them. and the TIEs are winning
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Mar 16, 2022 01:33
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They send out like eight TIEs in total, it's whoever Vader was able to wrangle on short notice. Two of them follow on Vader's wing leaving like 6 against the 30 or so rebel starfighters. We see Vader take out, like, six of them himself leaving the rest to be taken out by the other six. We know the surface guns are relatively ineffective, we know that only three rebel starfighters survive. That leaves a lot of rebel fighters to be shot down by those other TIEs. Edit: and both Biggs and Luke are saved at the last minute Horizon Burning fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Mar 16, 2022 |
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Mar 16, 2022 01:40
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Horizon Burning posted:there's like one time in the original trilogy where we can maybe consider the rebel fighters outnumbered by their imperial equivalent (battle of endor) and there are tons of shots of them getting chewed up. battle of yavin has a major plot point where the imperial fighter defences aren't sortied. in rogue one we know that the rebels take severe losses and we see multiple x-wings bite it. it seems like you're thinking of maybe poe's dumb bullshit in the sequels but that's pretty much atonal and silly. there really isn't anything to suggest that the x-wing is especially superior to the tie fighter beyond that it has two extra lasers (when two seem sufficient) and a hyperdrive (unnecessary if you have a carrier ship.) mention is made of "deflector screens" but no mention is made of ties lacking them (and we never see the shields save a pilot's life.) i think there's design documents from the original films that indicate that the tie fighter and the x-wing were supposed to be roughly equivalent (and the y-wing was supposed to be very fast -- something else the fandom ignored for "game balance.") You're right, I guess there are just so many EU stories that I haven't even read/watched but am tangentially aware of where it is just a given that the X-Wing is the epitome of fighters.
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Mar 16, 2022 01:51
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Schwarzwald posted:I really don't follow the logic, here. Star Wars doesn't care about politics because if it did we would have shown Darth Vader burning in hell? No, I'm just referring to the idea that he is 'redeemed' at all and became some sort of good person at the end. He killed his boss, who he kinda already hated, to protect the life of his own son. I don't think that really makes him a good guy, or washes his hands of the billions of lives. I mean Star Wars is usually very unconcerned with the small folks. His ghost happily chums it up with the other Jedi ghosts even though he murdered everyone they ever knew plus billions more. It is very convenient that Ren and Vader die right when they Turn Good because then it'd be a weird question as to how they're allowed to carry on after killing billions.
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Mar 16, 2022 01:57
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Mr. Grapes! posted:No, I'm just referring to the idea that he is 'redeemed' at all and became some sort of good person at the end. He killed his boss, who he kinda already hated, to protect the life of his own son. I don't think that really makes him a good guy, or washes his hands of the billions of lives. I mean Star Wars is usually very unconcerned with the small folks. His ghost happily chums it up with the other Jedi ghosts even though he murdered everyone they ever knew plus billions more. You're mixing up different thoughts, here. How does Luke seeing his two mentors and father in a vision make the film "unconcerned with the small folks?" How does Vader becoming or not becoming a good person effect that? What do these points have to do with each other?
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Mar 16, 2022 03:13
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Rebel starfighters only retroactively got hyperdrive bc Luke had to go to Dagobah straight from the evacuation. Phantom menace reintroduces a hyperspace road trip but they've whittled it down over the years to eventually get to the lightspeed skipping scene Doing a long hyperspace jump in a starfighter seems like it would drive you crazy and also you'd have to piss your pants
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Mar 16, 2022 03:50
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Schwarzwald posted:You're mixing up different thoughts, here. How does Luke seeing his two mentors and father in a vision make the film "unconcerned with the small folks?" How does Vader becoming or not becoming a good person effect that? Well, if we're just focusing on Luke, does it make him a rather callous and heartless hero if he doesn't really seem to care that much that Dad murdered billions of people, as long as he made some token gesture to murder his own abusive boss in favor of his wounded son? Is Leia the same? She seems to think that Kylo could return to the Good Squad, even if he has willingly murdered billions of people as well. Star Wars seems far more concerned with family dynamics than having the leaders of billions actually seem to care about the billions they control? Yes, these could be considered character flaws present in bad leaders but the movies don't seem to think so - Luke and Leia are practically revered as religious figures. I'm not trying to pick a fight. On a slightly different topic: Is there a lot of EU stuff that (non-stupidly) has a plausible explanation for the First Order? The films seem entirely uninterested in relating even the most basic plot points of how the Rebels won the whole big space war, yet decades later the Empire still exists using the same imagery and weapons and is also openly ruled by an evil mutant space wizard who doesn't even try to hide behind a benevolent political front like the Emperor did. They also have overwhelming numbers and force and the New Republic something something something are 'The Resistance' as if they are not the rulers of the galaxy already? This movie could have been really interesting if they made the First Order some fringe terrorist group, kind of a dark reflection of the Rebel Alliance, rather than just being the Big Scary Dumb Empire again. That would probably put Star Wars in political territory it does not want to be in - far easier just to go with Space Nazis and be done with it. They double down on this in the Mandalorian Season 2 - in Season 1 it at least seems like the Empire lost, yet in Season 2 they are still seemingly everywhere with unlimited resources again, even though the war has been won for years. Was it all for nothing? It doesn't really make sense to me - more that Star Wars is attached to the idea of the rebels being scrappy underdogs no matter what, and even their greatest possible success still leaves them as scrappy underdogs, even if they now control the galaxy? Despite being kind of garbage the prequels did a good job of explaining how the Empire arose, but the First Order just kind of arrives because the marketers needed it to. Apologies if this is common knowledge or something but I glanced at Wookiepedia and it looks like endless pages of crap so I was wondering if anyone here had a succinct take on how it happened. Mr. Grapes! fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Mar 16, 2022 |
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Mar 16, 2022 03:56
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Ingmar terdman posted:Doing a long hyperspace jump in a starfighter seems like it would drive you crazy and also you'd have to piss your pants Luke is, unquestionably, wearing a diaper.
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Mar 16, 2022 03:58
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Luke is, unquestionably, wearing a diaper. There has got to be some sort of Star Wars word for diaper. Someone's gotta know! Is there a weird word they use for toilet?
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Mar 16, 2022 04:01
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Luke is, unquestionably, wearing a diaper. Sure that's the easy part vs sitting in an open casket watching the 2001 stargate sequence for a day or two Mr. Grapes! posted:Is there a weird word they use for toilet? https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Refresher
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Mar 16, 2022 04:06
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Mr. Grapes! posted:There has got to be some sort of Star Wars word for diaper. Someone's gotta know! Is there a weird word they use for toilet? Refresher. This leads to a fantastic pun in Starfighters of Adumar.
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Mar 16, 2022 04:07
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Luke ate his own body waste. 
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Mar 16, 2022 04:14
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Ingmar terdman posted:Sure that's the easy part vs sitting in an open casket watching the 2001 stargate sequence for a day or two Never change, Star Wars.
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Mar 16, 2022 04:38
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Ingmar terdman posted:Rebel starfighters only retroactively got hyperdrive bc Luke had to go to Dagobah straight from the evacuation. Phantom menace reintroduces a hyperspace road trip but they've whittled it down over the years to eventually get to the lightspeed skipping scene Dagobah is at least relatively close to Hoth, Luke makes it there within the span of the Falcon evading the Star Destroyers and hiding out in the asteroid field. Hellishly long flights in single-seat aircraft is an existing thing, though—during World War II, escort fighters in the Pacific would have to fly 8-10 hours over open water, and today with aerial refueling planes can stay aloft indefinitely. Doing #1 is relatively easy, you can just pee into a bag you bring with you. #2 you basically have to just deal with.
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Mar 16, 2022 04:39
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x-wing has a life support system. he could just pop the hood and lean his butt over the side.
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Mar 16, 2022 04:41
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Luke is, unquestionably, wearing a diaper. Mr. Grapes! posted:There has got to be some sort of Star Wars word for diaper. Someone's gotta know! Is there a weird word they use for toilet? One of the anthology novels released under Disney did in fact specify that X-Wing pilots wear "maximum absorbency undergarments" story group just keeps hitting those home runs!!
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Mar 16, 2022 05:01
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stev posted:I always just took it that the Empire pumped out millions of cheap plastic fighters because they could, while the rebels had a far smaller fleet of more robust, older ships. The Rebel ships aren't necessarily older but pretty much, the difference of doctrine is the point. TIEs are cheap as gently caress and still pretty deadly in the right hands (Ironically the PT has their original basis be Jedi starfighters, which are minimally armoured for maximum speed since they have precognitive pilots) and designed to be dependent and expendable, while the Rebel fighters are a mix of whatever they have on hand, including prototypes that the Empire decided not to produce and modified racing ships, all meant to do as much as possible on their own.
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Mar 16, 2022 06:16
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Horizon Burning posted:They send out like eight TIEs in total, it's whoever Vader was able to wrangle on short notice. Two of them follow on Vader's wing leaving like 6 against the 30 or so rebel starfighters. We see Vader take out, like, six of them himself leaving the rest to be taken out by the other six. Pretty sure only a small part of the Rebel fighters do the trench run, the larger part keeps the turrets busy as a distraction. So it's not eight TIEs against 30 Rebel ships, it's more like ten or so of the latter directly attacking the Death Star's surface. Vader takes down so many of them because he sees through their attack pattern and sneaks up behind them, it has nothing to do with the quality of his fighter jet.
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Mar 16, 2022 06:31
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The Rebel ships aren't necessarily older but pretty much, the difference of doctrine is the point. TIEs are cheap as gently caress and still pretty deadly in the right hands (Ironically the PT has their original basis be Jedi starfighters, which are minimally armoured for maximum speed since they have precognitive pilots) ITT we are TIE pilots precognitively sensing we're gonna loving die Ingmar terdman posted:Rebel starfighters only retroactively got hyperdrive bc Luke had to go to Dagobah straight from the evacuation. Phantom menace reintroduces a hyperspace road trip but they've whittled it down over the years to eventually get to the lightspeed skipping scene The original movie sort of, in a roundabout way, implies that the Rebel starfighters have hyperdrive...because as scripted and filmed, the Death Star was never meant to be on a ticking-clock approach to Yavin 4. That was a synthetic climax built entirely in the editing bay. All the information related to the Death Star approaching the rebel base is delivered in voiceover or VFX, which they could add without too much effort. (You can only imagine the STAR WARS IN TROUBLE - EXTENSIVE RESHOOTS TO SAVE ENDING headlines the 70s missed out on) So the scripted version of the story implies the Rebel ships have to go at least a little ways out to reach the Death Star, maybe even to another system. Of course, that doesn't end up on screen.
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Mar 16, 2022 06:36
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Grendels Dad posted:Pretty sure only a small part of the Rebel fighters do the trench run, the larger part keeps the turrets busy as a distraction. So it's not eight TIEs against 30 Rebel ships, it's more like ten or so of the latter directly attacking the Death Star's surface. Vader takes down so many of them because he sees through their attack pattern and sneaks up behind them, it has nothing to do with the quality of his fighter jet. guh? buh? zuh? yes a small part of the rebel attackers do the trench run, that is my point for a thread about star wars movies it sure seems like no one remembers what happens in them!! perhaps we can express this in terms of mathematics 8 tie fighters, 1 tie advanced (vader) 22 x-wings, 8 y-wings 1 x-wing (porkins) is taken out prior to the trench run - this is important as he is seemingly the only kill credited to the surface guns yet may have been a result of technical failure or piloting error (total 21/8) during various trench runs, Vader destroys 3 x-wings and 3 y-wings (total 18/5) vader is accompanied by 2 TIE fighters, this leaves 6 TIEs to tangle with the rebel craft at the end of the battle, the only rebel survivors are 2 x-wings and 1 y-wing. this means 16 x-wings and 4 y-wings are destroyed by the 6 TIEs (at best, 1 or 2 are taken out.) some may have fell victim to the turbolasers, but vader evidently believes that the surface guns themselves would be insufficient (backed up by only one rebel craft being caught by them - maybe) the TIEs are facing at least 3:1 odds and yet the rebel force is virtually wiped out. additionally, the success of those TIEs to keep the numerically-superior rebel pilots busy could be argued as a key point that lets vader hunt down the trench runners without impediment. otherwise, why didn't the numerically superior rebels with their superior spaceframes spare one or two craft to disrupt Vader's attack runs? the initial argument was that the x-wing is such a superior craft that it could chew through a greater number of imperial craft without issue. this isn't the case. the events depicted in the films demonstrate that the basic TIE is no slouch. it appears to be roughly equivalent to an x-wing if not better, although some of that stems from the TIE seeming to be a space superiority craft where the x-wing is more of a strike fighter or attacker. Horizon Burning fucked around with this message at 07:43 on Mar 16, 2022 |
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Mar 16, 2022 06:56
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You overstress how useless the surface cannons are. They are obviously effective enought to make the Rebels sacrifice two thirds of their attack force to keep them busy. It's a bit pointless to discuss this any further though because it all happens offscreen and the claim that all the Rebel fighters are shot down by six TIEs is just as unsupported as saying the defense cannons shot them down.
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Mar 16, 2022 07:51
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Ex-Wings and Why-Wings
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Mar 16, 2022 08:18
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Grendels Dad posted:You overstress how useless the surface cannons are. They are obviously effective enought to make the Rebels sacrifice two thirds of their attack force to keep them busy. well sure, except for vader saying "those cannons can't do it, we need to send out fighters" and we never see a single rebel ship get taken out by surface fire, yeah, we can assume that the cannons were swatting down rebel fighters effortlessly off-screen instead of the TIEs that y'know come close to getting not only biggs but luke! the surface guns can't even hit the ships as they're flying a straight line down the trench!! even if we give the cannons half of the rebel fighters that didn't take the trench run, that still puts an inferior number of TIEs against fighters with more firepower and shields, and still wipe them out in about three minutes. it's okay to be wrong!! free yourself from the prison of game balance and fanon. when you achieve true media literacy, you can draw information from negative spaces and determine what happens in the "off-screen." Horizon Burning fucked around with this message at 08:44 on Mar 16, 2022 |
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Mar 16, 2022 08:37
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Horizon Burning posted:well sure, except for vader saying "those cannons can't do it, we need to send out fighters" and we never see a single rebel ship get taken out by surface fire, yeah, we can assume that the cannons were swatting down rebel fighters effortlessly off-screen instead of the TIEs that y'know come close to getting not only biggs but luke! the surface guns can't even hit the ships as they're flying a straight line down the trench!! even if we give the cannons half of the rebel fighters that didn't take the trench run, that still puts an inferior number of TIEs against fighters with more firepower and shields, and still wipe them out in about three minutes. Vader explicitly says that him and his two guys are going to take care of the trench runners because there is something fishy about their attack pattern. If you want to get condecending about media literacy, at least get details right.
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Mar 16, 2022 08:48
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Grendels Dad posted:Vader explicitly says that him and his two guys are going to take care of the trench runners because there is something fishy about their attack pattern. If you want to get condecending about media literacy, at least get details right. why do you keep returning to this point? what are you saying?
Mr. Grapes! posted:The X-Wings are never described technically in the movies but literally everytime we see them they are outnumbered by Tie Fighters yet have no problem chewing their way through them point the first: they are absolutely not outnumbered by TIEs in the battle of yavin, even if you account for EU sources that claim vader launched a whole squadron point the second: the x-wings do not effortlessly chew through them because, as we see, the rebels suffer almost the complete loss of their attack force despite numerical superiority (and, possibly, the x-wing being a craft with better armament and defences) and despite the turbolasers being rather ineffective, both from what we see and from what we are told by an imperial officer reporting to vader meanwhile, your argument is something to do with vader saying: "Several fighters have broken off from the main group. Come with me!" which doesn't really seem to match your idea of explicitness? and doesn't refute either point anyway? at this point, i think i should be more condescending and not less! if i wanted to get more into the weeds i could point out that six ties launch and engage the rebel fighters, almost nabbing both biggs and luke, before vader takes off with his two wingmen, i guess? or that if we account for the two TIEs destroyed before vader launches, that increases the possible tie kill ratio to almost 6:1? Horizon Burning fucked around with this message at 09:47 on Mar 16, 2022 |
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Mar 16, 2022 09:22
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well why not posted:x-wing has a life support system. he could just pop the hood and lean his butt over the side. Poe mooning Hux would've been a lot funnier than the "Yo' Mamma" joke. "That's no moon! That's an X-Wing!" 
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Mar 16, 2022 12:26
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Having just rewatched the Battle of Yavin, all you can say is that the TIEs and X-Wings seem evenly matched. When the fighters swoop in they shoot down 1 X-Wing on screen, then Luke gets one, and then Wedge gets one. Then Vader shoots down like 7 ships in a row, but obviously they couldn't have made it easier for him if they tried.
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Mar 16, 2022 14:36
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I always thought the stuff from the EU actually made a lot of sense and fit in pretty well with the image we have of the two sides. X-Wings have more pilot-friendly stuff about them, i.e. they have shields and extra weapons and they can travel around on their own because of the hyperdrive. The TIEs don't have any of that stuff because the Empire doesn't care about casualties and is happy to sacrifice some pilots if it means having a lighter, faster, more nimble fighter. As a result the X-Wings have some nice features but they're heavier and clunkier, making it easier for TIEs to maneuver around them and get behind them.
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Mar 16, 2022 14:46
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I always thought it was a nice touch that X-Wing's can land in a swamp and be fine but TIE fighters don't even having landing gear, they operate off of racks and require a large vessel or station. If a pilot does try to desert - they'll basically have to crash the fighter. What I'm saying is Poe crashed out of tradition.
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Mar 16, 2022 14:59
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:I always thought it was a nice touch that X-Wing's can land in a swamp and be fine but TIE fighters don't even having landing gear, they operate off of racks and require a large vessel or station. If a pilot does try to desert - they'll basically have to crash the fighter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p6hYEFu-qE
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Mar 16, 2022 15:09
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It’s amusing that people still think there was any sort of deep consideration given to any design or story decision like that.
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Mar 16, 2022 16:16
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duodenum posted:It’s amusing that people still think there was any sort of deep consideration given to any design or story decision like that. You're right in general of course, but I wouldn't be totally surprised if the legends ship lore served as an inspiration for a known gamer like rian on everyone's favorite arms dealer plot point. When the rebellion are the underdogs they get all these awesome fighters, when the empire is on the outs infinite ships suddenly become available, etc
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Mar 16, 2022 16:33
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New Lego Skywalker Saga featurette We'll be able to play as Babu Frik, and Yaddle
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Mar 16, 2022 16:33
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Vinylshadow posted:New Lego Skywalker Saga featurette Just frik me up
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Mar 16, 2022 17:15
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