|
FrostyPox posted:I'm amazed that they're still working on this game. It's the 20's baby! Video games don't get actually made anymore, video game consumers just endlessly support endless developments (Ashes, Star Citizen- This?)... The only thing different about this and those other 2 is that VR doesn't seem to want to double back on already confirmed sales (As in, offering different MTX bundles for more money). Not to give them ideas... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiP3xmzrEq0 January Dev Stream: Not bumping for this: They show some network tech and materials tech. hobocrunch fucked around with this message at 15:13 on Jan 14, 2022 |
#
?
Jan 9, 2022 01:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 23:35 |
|
|
I can't believe nobody has posted their February update, which consists of a 1 hour video of them interviewing their HR Director and Internal Communications manager: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia6Y0xV-d9U Edit: My bad, the much less funny reality is that they also had a typical newsletter for the month - https://www.pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/_2022/february/ retpocileh fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Mar 6, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2022 15:41
|
|
|
I'm surprised they haven't offered NFT packages and forced backers to renew their pledges yet.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2022 20:08
|
|
|
retpocileh posted:I can't believe nobody has posted their February update, which consists of a 1 hour video of them interviewing their HR Director and Internal Communications manager: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia6Y0xV-d9U When I saw they posted a roadmap for the next month that included a livestream focusing on the HR department, I lost it. Just a real... a real choice.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2022 20:20
|
|
|
Man that is a lot of “to do”
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2022 21:03
|
|
|
Wizards sound kinda neat I guess? Really searching for positives at this rate. I don't like how careful they always are to point out that "don't worry, this class can flex into other roles if needed!" -- like they're afraid to have strong class identity if god forbid it alienates people.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2022 02:59
|
|
|
retpocileh posted:I can't believe nobody has posted their February update, which consists of a 1 hour video of them interviewing their HR Director and Internal Communications manager: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia6Y0xV-d9U World first video game Human Resource Roundtable?
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2022 03:46
|
|
|
knox posted:World first video game Human Resource Roundtable? Seems very like something Camelot Unchained or Crowfall would have done at some point already.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2022 03:59
|
|
|
Sachant posted:Seems very like something Camelot Unchained or Crowfall would have done at some point already. Camelot Unchained most definitely, they've been one of the blueprints for MMO scams these last 5+ years of their 9-10 year development. Hours long Mark Jacobs "update" streams are definitely equivalent or worse than this HR roundtable, which might actually help some people in the Human Resource field or something? None of Mark Jacobs help anyone in any way. In a Return of Reckoning (Warhammer Online private server) streamer's chat where routinely discuss the MMO industry/new games that come out/endless scams etc., labeling CU a scam led to discussion of what actually constitutes a scam. I mean yeah if you want to define it as your intentions at the start, no it's not a 'scam' because I'm sure Mark Jacobs would prefer to have a launched game making money right now. But after this long of a development, with really nothing to show for all those years of $3+ million salary budget (besides the fabled 'working on second game' tactic they used as an excuse for why the original game hasn't progressed), yes it has been a scam for a long period of time. Because Crowfall actually launched I never want to associate it with the ilk of Camelot Unchained or somehow even worse scams (where the intentions were fraudulent from the beginning- there's like 5+ I could name). I never played Crowfall but I was interested in checking it out eventually because open world PvP is what I'm into; but the launch was so bad and population dead on arrival I never even got chance to.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2022 05:10
|
|
|
knox posted:Because Crowfall actually launched I never want to associate it with the ilk of Camelot Unchained or somehow even worse scams (where the intentions were fraudulent from the beginning- there's like 5+ I could name). I never played Crowfall but I was interested in checking it out eventually because open world PvP is what I'm into; but the launch was so bad and population dead on arrival I never even got chance to. To be fair, this isn't entirely true; Crowfall launched with a pretty successful and sizable population. However, it did torpedo really fast and is now completely dead. The first few weeks, there was a lot of end game pvp.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2022 08:06
|
|
|
Yeah Crowfall was pretty great at launch honestly. I think it got a bad rap and it's unfortunate that it's dead now.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2022 17:25
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:To be fair, this isn't entirely true; Crowfall launched with a pretty successful and sizable population. However, it did torpedo really fast and is now completely dead. The first few weeks, there was a lot of end game pvp. Why did that happen though? I thought the general issue was there wasn't enough of a population for the open world PvP model to sustain itself, even at launch, and it sort of snowballed from there. I've seen people praise the game & gameplay so if the population was good at launch what caused a mass exodus from the jump?
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2022 18:40
|
|
|
knox posted:I've seen people praise the game & gameplay so if the population was good at launch what caused a mass exodus from the jump? MMO players are obsessed with playercount, to the point of not playing even decent games if they're at all perceived to not have some arbitrarily high playercount.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2022 18:44
|
|
|
knox posted:Why did that happen though? I thought the general issue was there wasn't enough of a population for the open world PvP model to sustain itself, even at launch, and it sort of snowballed from there. I've seen people praise the game & gameplay so if the population was good at launch what caused a mass exodus from the jump? Unlike EvE online, most "Hardcore" PvP games are written by fairly dumb people who get taken advantage of the PvP wolves demand for pray. PvP games die on something called the fairness encounter rate. If the world is to small, has to many choke points, and to many wolves, any non wolves go poof in fairly short order. If your game then also has crafting, few people will actully do crafting and those that do will min max PVP crafting to every advantage they can. So the encounter rate is about like this: Wolves want 70% + success rates but can tolerate less epically if it means more constant action. Non wolves will tolerate 20%-30% failure rates for a given action. They also want feedback as to why something failed and how they can do better at say, getting away or past the wolves. (Stealth, builds that can outrun wolves, counter tactics of various types). If you want your game to be a success and demand PVP, you need to solve the puzzle above otherwise you will get a rush of players, they kill the population, and leave the game.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2022 21:06
|
|
|
PyRosflam posted:If you want your game to be a success and demand PVP, you need to solve the puzzle above otherwise you will get a rush of players, they kill the population, and leave the game. Starbase is learning this lesson the hard way as well.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2022 03:10
|
|
|
I don't think the sheep/wolves thing is a valuable dichotomy. By that logic, rust should be a horribly dead game because it makes effectively zero allowance for sheep. I'd expect that none play the game without being dragged in by a friend, but the game is still quite successful. There's just a max player density that a kill on sight game can maintain. Rust works because anyone can create more land at any time. You can't do that with an MMO.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 19:57
|
|
|
knox posted:But after this long of a development, with really nothing to show for all those years of $3+ million salary budget (besides the fabled 'working on second game' tactic they used as an excuse for why the original game hasn't progressed), yes it has been a scam for a long period of time. In my opinion, a development scam is when a company refuses to place any risk on their job security for the better of the product- So for example in Pantheon's case we know that they could happily develop with their main crew of people for the next 4 years. They care about their job security over potentially taking a risk (using more funds to hire more staff) than releasing in a reasonable time frame. So is Pantheon a scam? Still kind of. I think the developers working on the product are doing the best they can with the team they've got but I think the CEO's and Project Managers are 100% in safety mode. I hate the fact that VR could just hire an artist to make an exclusive minipet for them every month to help climb out of this hole they're in but they refuse to do it because they're against selling MTX or something. But they're quite literally already selling MTX in their game bundles. They just take zero risks, and don't seemingly double down investing in their own company. Which is what a normal company would do if they're confident in their product. And honestly they should be confident in their product. Not only is the MMO community ready to hand out fuckloads of money, they're like Vampires of haven't had a drink of blood in a decade.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2022 02:32
|
|
|
30.5 Days posted:Rust works because anyone can create more land at any time. You can't do that with an MMO. Why not? Procedural generation of terrain is the type of procgen with the best usual results.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2022 02:39
|
|
|
Subjunctive posted:Why not? Procedural generation of terrain is the type of procgen with the best usual results. like you could even make that a core mechanic of a game, New player gets added to the edge of the map or something. Its a "Hard" one to do in some cases, but a sparwling world where you start with a small bit of land that you own would be a cool thing.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2022 02:48
|
|
|
Subjunctive posted:Why not? Procedural generation of terrain is the type of procgen with the best usual results. yeah, fair enough e: it's worth mentioning that there are kos pvp minecraft servers that maintain some obscenely high concurrents (although nothing an MMO would be proud of)
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2022 05:07
|
|
|
Rust also works because there are only a few hundred people on a server. It's fine to have just wolves playing a game when you only need a few hundred players. if you want MMO numbers, which if you spent MMO money to develop your game you do, then you have to have some way to accommodate the people who don't want to PvP constantly. Also, another problem is, that while I do enjoy PvP and raiding other people's bases and such, I also enjoy designing and building stuff and I don't want something that I worked on for an entire week to just be destroyed while I sleep. Edit: Also, another difference, is that Rust servers reset eventually, so even if one group gets a stranglehold on a server, eventually it'll wipe and everyone will be back to square one and that group may not get as lucky as they did that time to manage to get so far out ahead. deathbagel fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Mar 16, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2022 23:21
|
|
|
deathbagel posted:Rust also works because there are only a few hundred people on a server. It's fine to have just wolves playing a game when you only need a few hundred players. if you want MMO numbers, which if you spent MMO money to develop your game you do, then you have to have some way to accommodate the people who don't want to PvP constantly. Also, another problem is, that while I do enjoy PvP and raiding other people's bases and such, I also enjoy designing and building stuff and I don't want something that I worked on for an entire week to just be destroyed while I sleep. i've heard almost nothing about rust but this sounds like a great approach - seasonal games don't need to produce content at blistering speeds to keep the money rolling in and if you fall too far behind you can just wait until the next time the server resets
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 06:09
|
|
|
hobocrunch posted:In my opinion, a development scam is when a company refuses to place any risk on their job security for the better of the product- So for example in Pantheon's case we know that they could happily develop with their main crew of people for the next 4 years. They care about their job security over potentially taking a risk (using more funds to hire more staff) than releasing in a reasonable time frame. Slowly, steadily, and consistently developing something you already took money for instead overextending your burn rate is a scam? Well, that's certainly a new take.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2022 02:24
|
|
|
SweetBro posted:Slowly, steadily, and consistently developing something you already took money for instead overextending your burn rate is a scam? Well, that's certainly a new take. Imagine actually defending a 10 year development with the excuse of "We took money so we better take more money". Shut the gently caress up.
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2022 09:34
|
|
|
Lol. The very out of date OP:Ehud posted:
This part should be changed to: lol Brad McQuaid. This game probably won't get made, right? it absolutely under no circumstance will ever release in any meaningful way. Also Brad ded
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2022 23:32
|
|
|
hobocrunch posted:Imagine actually defending a 10 year development with the excuse of "We took money so we better take more money". Shut the gently caress up. Pantheon's development may have a lot issues and may very well be problematic. But your take is bad, off-base, and reads like some rant from an armchair expert with no project management experience.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2022 21:34
|
|
|
SweetBro posted:Pantheon's development may have a lot issues and may very well be problematic. But your take is bad, off-base, and reads like some rant from an armchair expert with no project management experience. Lol Also related: how many star citizen space ships do you own?
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2022 21:43
|
|
|
I think Pantheon will release, it's just not going to resemble the original pitch at all. They've just drifted into reinventing classic WoW at this point, but worse.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 04:11
|
|
|
I have a hard time understanding why- remaking everquest seems like it ought to be much easier than remaking wow. I understand that brad kicking it freed you from a lot of promises which is a great opportunity but I'd expect the result to be tightening the hell out of the scope, not inexplicably expanding it. Get rid of the climbing poo poo, get rid of the weather. Make the graphics shittier. Make 3 races, 5 classes, 20 zones, 15 of which are almost empty, and like 6 quests. Call it early access.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 08:02
|
|
|
30.5 Days posted:I have a hard time understanding why- remaking everquest seems like it ought to be much easier than remaking wow. I understand that brad kicking it freed you from a lot of promises which is a great opportunity but I'd expect the result to be tightening the hell out of the scope, not inexplicably expanding it. Get rid of the climbing poo poo, get rid of the weather. Make the graphics shittier. Make 3 races, 5 classes, 20 zones, 15 of which are almost empty, and like 6 quests. Call it early access. From my understanding the server technology was so poorly designed that they couldn't even do open world. The game was going to have loving zones and loading screens. Likely Brad was against a redesign because of how many times they'd hosed it up already, which I believe was 2 other times. So Brad finally dying finally gave them the chance to scrap it again and they've been rebuilding it entirely from 2020 or so. I know they've also had to entirely rebuild the code that handles streaming terrain in, which was basically causing the game to run like poo poo in zones with any large amount of assets in them due to poo poo being incorrectly loaded and so on. They also built custom in-house tools for terrain etc. Just recently they've hired like 7 artists?. Could be wrong on that. This is the most artists they've ever had so the outlook is brighter than ever, but it still doesn't stop it having been a scam/is a scam. If certain people leave the company which is entirely possible there's a good chance this product never releases. Anyhow I actually think Brad killed him self, no joke and it sucks but I genuinely think he did it because he was stuck in a bad spot between hurting fans and being unable to get the game out and being a failure.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 14:33
|
|
|
quote:The game was going to have loving zones and loading screens. Hey, zones can be an aesthetic choice  I don't consider it a scam but I do think it's pretty far down the road of being a complete failure. How much is the scope growing, how much is the team over-promising at this point? I just get the feeling that they're way over their heads. Maybe my bar for scams is too high, thanks to Star Citizen.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 15:06
|
|
|
I dont think Zones are that big of a deal. Classic TLP EQ is scaling because of the zone model that the original solved with day long lists for groups. WoW uses phasing (zones but invis I think). The real problem is no public engine is setup for MMOs. So you cant go to Lumberyard, or Epic, or whatever and just get an engine with built in "can scale to 2000 players, stream load, and only give updates based on player distance." Hell Satisfactory had a hell of a time just because players were in different spots on a big map. That was limited to 4 people I think.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 16:11
|
|
|
hobocrunch posted:From my understanding the server technology was so poorly designed that they couldn't even do open world. The game was going to have loving zones and loading screens. Who cares? Why is this actually a problem? Make the graphics lovely enough and loading time will be like 1s on an SSD. edit: hobocrunch posted:Just recently they've hired like 7 artists?. Could be wrong on that. This is the most artists they've ever had so the outlook is brighter than ever, but it still doesn't stop it having been a scam/is a scam. If certain people leave the company which is entirely possible there's a good chance this product never releases. That's way too many artists!
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 21:36
|
|
|
I'm being harsh to loading screens because personally I lump it in with a bunch of other things that detract from MMO worlds, along with instancing and phasing. I don't think any of those are that bad when used in moderation but for me not only does the loading screen take me out of the game, having zones that look like you were supposed to go from A to B inside of them whilst completing quests along the way makes the entire thing feel like a developer made it rather than a real world. And a lot of them are like this because you always enter the zone at the same spot, so naturally there's quests there waiting for you. (I haven't played EQ so I don't know if it's like that, but WH:AOC and GW1/2 , SWTOR are like this).
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2022 04:56
|
|
|
It’s not a real world and zone lines let designers make interesting areas to play in without having to figure out transitions that don’t pointlessly bloat travel times and look goofy anyway.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2022 08:39
|
|
|
Subjunctive posted:It’s not a real world and zone lines let designers make interesting areas to play in without having to figure out transitions that don’t pointlessly bloat travel times and look goofy anyway. Oh true. You're right. It's not a real world, so let me see your 1 page article about removing graphics and forcing everyone back to muds.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2022 11:38
|
|
|
Consistency is important, realism is not in and of itself. Realism is useful as a form of consistency with what the player knows (Euclidean geometry, for example, or humanoid forms) but most players don’t know what it’s like to travel on foot or exposed vehicle between very different areas, so there’s little to be gained. “Seamless zones” is just engine bragging to give journalists something to write, and the effort required to make it work well (in engine and art, plus min-spec bump) is better put to other uses. 3D graphics are an efficient and familiar way to express positioning and spatial relationships, and the camera (though not really realistic—where’s my peripheral vision?) provides an easily-learned way to control both movement and visual focus. Having roughly 2M pixels instead of many fewer letter-glyphs gives designers the ability to convey a lot more information in a fixed amount of time, and nobody (afaik) has solved the disruption of text scrolling while it’s being read. I worked on VR game stuff for a while, and narrowly avoided a career in MMO development. I appreciate the value of immersion, but being immersed in the fantastic sense of “I dunno, not really the swamp and not really the mountains” isn’t something that strikes me as valuable. Maybe you find zoning to be really disruptive to your experience, and would rather avoid zoning than have more intense change-of-environment experiences; I won’t invent some strawman about that to make you justify your position, but I don’t think it’s a common one. Maybe some sort of magic wormhole network with a loading screen that isn’t black or like a movie title card would be more to your liking? You can make the world discontinuous without creating abrupt non-diagetic UI for moving within it. (A game where the smooth connectedness of regions or their spatial relationships was significant to the gameplay itself would probably be an exception. If it’s meaningful to be halfway between two zone centres versus two-thirds one way due to rule changes, say, or if reasoning about latitude/longitude matters to navigation, I could see it maybe being worth doing seamlessness, though I suspect that’d still be better done by hiding zone transitions than preventing them.)
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2022 14:32
|
|
|
hobocrunch posted:so naturally there's quests there waiting for you. (I haven't played EQ so I don't know if it's like that It isn't, fortunately.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2022 17:06
|
|
|
ac had a completely open overworld that was enormous in 1999 so
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 02:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 23:35 |
|
|
I'm not talking about real realism, I'm talking realism within the IPs terms- Also known as feeling immersed. which is pretty important honestly. A "real world" is just another way of saying "I want to feel like I live in the world, exist in it."
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 03:05
|
|
