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WhatEvil posted:Do you think there are many actual leftists who do that? Plenty in C-Spam Edit oops snipe Here's my dog enjoying the morning sun as atonement. 
Mega Comrade fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Mar 17, 2022 |
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Mar 17, 2022 09:51
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https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1504357303323172869 to the surprise of nobody.
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Mar 17, 2022 09:53
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There was an easy workaround anyway, just get a third job.
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Mar 17, 2022 10:01
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Does anyone know anything about Graham Stringer? Specifically what "second jobs" or anything like that this oval office has? https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/mar/16/labour-mp-graham-stringer-join-nigel-farage-anti-net-zero-rally quote:Labour MP Graham Stringer to join Nigel Farage at anti-net zero rally The article contains some stuff. He's a member of "Global Warming Policy Foundation"... I'm wondering if anyone knows of any specific backhanders I can't find easily with google. jiggerypokery fucked around with this message at 10:06 on Mar 17, 2022 |
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Mar 17, 2022 10:04
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Mega Comrade posted:Plenty in C-Spam This isn't true.
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Mar 17, 2022 10:06
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I think stringer is one of them like kate hoey or whatever, frothing dickheads that I would say don't belong in labour but apparently that constitutes most of the leading lights of the party.
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Mar 17, 2022 10:10
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forkboy84 posted:This isn't true. What isn't true? propagandist puppets pretending to be left? Or leftist blaming the whole thing on Nato and the west?
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Mar 17, 2022 10:11
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For discussion's sake, if I WAS to place the majority of the blame at the feet of NATO and the West, what would be the realistic counter arguments to that?
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Mar 17, 2022 10:17
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Cookie Cutter posted:For discussion's sake, if I WAS to place the majority of the blame at the feet of NATO and the West, what would be the realistic counter arguments to that?
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Mar 17, 2022 10:22
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Cookie Cutter posted:For discussion's sake, if I WAS to place the majority of the blame at the feet of NATO and the West, what would be the realistic counter arguments to that? Looking at reality.
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Mar 17, 2022 10:23
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Cookie Cutter posted:For discussion's sake, if I WAS to place the majority of the blame at the feet of NATO and the West, what would be the realistic counter arguments to that? Well I for one would go with something like "the tanks invading Ukraine appear to be Russian so it seems like Russia is mostly responsible" Apportioning blame is always going to be an exercise in flailing, though. Sure NATO might be partially responsible. But NATO wouldn't exist without the USSR so it's the communists' fault. But communists wouldn't exist without the industrial revolution so it's the capitalists' fault. If only that protein didn't replicate in the primordial ocean we wouldn't be in this mess. But Putin sent the tanks in so he must be at least partly to fault. Is that part below or above 50%? Anyone arguing below 50% has got their work cut out for them, I reckon.
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Mar 17, 2022 10:23
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does anyone have suggestions or things i can read to get an idea of how i (a random person) can get involved in local or regional politics. to give an idea i'd like to be involved in pushing for affordable housing, as one area. it's just an example. i really don't know how much about how or even if there are routes to get involved in this. i'm not talking about as a career or anything, i just want to do something that aligns with how i think things should be. so if there is a book that outlines the ways you can do this, or a place i can go which would direct me, that'd be helpful. really anything other than going onto a volunteering website and seeing a bunch of trustee and retail assistant things for major charities. for scotland, specifically, if it makes a difference, which it probably does.
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Mar 17, 2022 10:34
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jiggerypokery posted:https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/mar/16/labour-mp-graham-stringer-join-nigel-farage-anti-net-zero-rally Graun posted:The Vote Power Not Poverty rally is scheduled to launch Farage’s campaign for a referendum on net zero, taking in place in Bolton next Saturday A green new deal could be used as part of a plan to improve the general welfare, the windfalls from green tech could be reinvested in communities, or net zero could be used as cover for a new austerity to further immiserate us all. There's such an obvious positive case here that if they can't make it it's obvious which one they're planning.
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Mar 17, 2022 10:35
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Borrovan posted:The fact that it's very clearly an unprovoked war of aggression by Russia. That, basically. The reason russia is the way it is is in no small part due to the west's handling of the collapse of the soviet union, so you can certainly apportion blame there, but there is no credible way that Ukraine poses a military threat to russia, NATO is not planning to invade russia (or wasn't until putin pulled this poo poo, still probably aren't but gently caress knows how the future is going) and I don't think Ukraine is significantly more full of nazis than most of the world and especially not loving russia, so their casus belli is horseshit.
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Mar 17, 2022 10:42
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Cookie Cutter posted:For discussion's sake, if I WAS to place the majority of the blame at the feet of NATO and the West, what would be the realistic counter arguments to that? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics I think the short answer is Putin is a brainwormed nationalist who thinks Russia has a god given right to restore the USSR, and Ukraine kept spurning him. So the west is only to blame insofar as as western liberal (late stage) capitalist democracy looks more attractive than being like Belarusian puppet state / eventual region of Russia. Pablo Bluth fucked around with this message at 10:50 on Mar 17, 2022 |
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Mar 17, 2022 10:44
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forkboy84 posted:
Now is the time not to be demonstrably wrong on them. So no defending of takes that were made in the absence of all the stuff that recently became evident. It’s reasonably clear to anyone paying attention that, when Ukraine became independent the Soviet Union’s security apparatus judged itself incapable of restoring control in the way it did in 1956 and 1968. In 2022, those agencies, now branded as Russian, judged differently, and are attempting to regain the control they lost in 1991. Putin is at heart a riot cop; his highest goal in life is to order the cracking of protestor’s heads. In order for any actor in NATO or the EU to have a significant causal effect on that sequence of events, it would have to have changed something actually relevant. Doing bad (or even good) things elsewhere is not, because nothing in that chain of events relies on the West being good or bad. The relevant action it did take, increasing Ukrainian military strength, was in fact insufficient to prevent the war starting, though it may turn out to be enough to prevent Russia winning. It is unclear what more could have been done without risking _different_ wars, one’s fought for _different_ reasons. For example actually offering NATO membership, somehow bypassing the legal restrictions would almost certainly have prevented _this_ war, but would have been insanely risky in terms of starting a wider one. Maybe actually visibly threatening the sanctions that appeared to come as a complete surprise to Putin would have been helpful. But I guess that would have required believing the CIA when they said the invasion was imminent, which seems a big ask.
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Mar 17, 2022 10:46
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:Well I for one would go with something like "the tanks invading Ukraine appear to be Russian so it seems like Russia is mostly responsible" I get what you're saying. For me it's the "unprovoked" interpretation that I take issue with mainly, especially in light of things like, internal memos from the US side saying "if we keep doing this thing it will pressure an invasion of Ukraine", Putin saying for many years the same thing, 8 years of the west taking a blind eye to civilian killings by the Ukrainian side in the seperatist regions, etc. Like how do you think the US would act if there was a militia on the Mexican border shelling American civilians for 8 years? There's a lot there to add nuance to one's interpretation, and to add another voice in opposition to the "Putin is mad/Hitler" crowd, which I don't think is a helpful view of the situation in any way.
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Mar 17, 2022 10:56
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Pablo Bluth posted:This book and the author are apparently both in favour in the Kremlin. They would be right too. In the space of what is possible on a scale between 0 being the worst hell imaginable and 10 being pretty good all round, actually - If western liberal (late stage) capitalist democracy scores 1/10 (loving awful) there is a hell of a lot of space left between 1 and 0 for Putin's facism to fill.
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Mar 17, 2022 10:59
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Putin sees Ukraine the same way China sees Taiwan. China doesn't want Taiwan as some bulwark against US interests, it simply does not recognise that Taiwan and China are in any way divisible.
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Mar 17, 2022 11:01
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jiggerypokery posted:They would be right too. In the space of what is possible on a scale between 0 being the worst hell imaginable and 10 being pretty good all round, actually - If western liberal (late stage) capitalist democracy scores 1/10 (loving awful) there is a hell of a lot of space left between 1 and 0 for Putin's facism to fill. I'd be interested to know what metrics you're using to arrive at this conclusion?
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Mar 17, 2022 11:02
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Cookie Cutter posted:I get what you're saying. For me it's the "unprovoked" interpretation that I take issue with mainly, especially in light of things like, internal memos from the US side saying "if we keep doing this thing it will pressure an invasion of Ukraine", Putin saying for many years the same thing, 8 years of the west taking a blind eye to civilian killings by the Ukrainian side in the seperatist regions, etc. Like how do you think the US would act if there was a militia on the Mexican border shelling American civilians for 8 years? There's a lot there to add nuance to one's interpretation, and to add another voice in opposition to the "Putin is mad/Hitler" crowd, which I don't think is a helpful view of the situation in any way. Was talking yesterday about a guy I used to know who was a notorious psycho & hard as nails, one time somebody owed him a fiver & refused to pay so he broke his jaw & through him through a shop window (before taking his wallet, which had a tenner in it). Should the debtor have bloody well known better? Yes. Is he blameless? No. Who's fault is it that his jaw got broken and he got thrown through a window? Very clearly the guy who broke his jaw and threw him through a window. radmonger posted:Now is the time not to be demonstrably wrong on them. So no defending of takes that were made in the absence of all the stuff that recently became evident.
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Mar 17, 2022 11:07
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*bursting in from four pages back* algorithm is indeed like algebra in that algebra comes from al-jabr, in this case algorithm is a westernisation of this guy's name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Musa_al-Khwarizmi Al-Khwarizmi got latinised to algoritmi and softened over time. Interestingly Khwarazm, also known as Chorasmia is part of the Greater Khorasan region that might be sounding familiar to Star Wars nerds. And for the Final Fantasy nerds the Timurid Empire considered it a rival of Samarkand and thus had the city based there destroyed.
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Mar 17, 2022 11:09
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OwlFancier posted:I think stringer is one of them like kate hoey or whatever, frothing dickheads that I would say don't belong in labour but apparently that constitutes most of the leading lights of the party. At least Hoey has self-yeeted herself, and Hodge is standing down at the next election. Trouble is I'm sure there are plenty of rising lights of the bastard wing of the party to get parachuted in to replace them.
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Mar 17, 2022 11:12
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Mega Comrade posted:What isn't true? propagandist puppets pretending to be left? Or leftist blaming the whole thing on Nato and the west? No, what's not true is D&D's weird obsession with CSPAM being "pro-Russian" for not being insane liberal interventionists.
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Mar 17, 2022 11:13
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Cookie Cutter posted:8 years of the west taking a blind eye to civilian killings by the Ukrainian side in the seperatist regions, etc. Like how do you think the US would act if there was a militia on the Mexican border shelling American civilians for 8 years? So....not American civilians, in your analogy, but rather Mexicans in Mexico? Because that already happens, there are drug wars around that area all the time, and the US hasn't sent the tanks in.
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Mar 17, 2022 11:16
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feedmegin posted:So....not American civilians, in your analogy, but rather Mexicans in Mexico? Because that already happens, there are drug wars around that area all the time, and the US hasn't sent the tanks in. No, I mean American civilians? You can't just add a "not" to my statement to make it mean something different.
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Mar 17, 2022 11:20
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Fairly sure Ukraine hasn't been shelling Russia for 8 years
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Mar 17, 2022 11:25
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It is worth noting that Zelensky has repeatedly complained since the war began about NATO representatives exaggerating Ukraine's chances of membership and/or support to him, which led to him taking an unsustainably tough line against Russia. The problem with NATO in the context of Eastern Europe is that, as a self-interested imperial project, it has a finite amount of support it can offer and risk it is prepared to shoulder on behalf of peripheral nations against its rival empire, creating a game of escalation that only Russia (as the imperial power with more skin in the game) could win. Eastward expansion was great for any country that could get it, but it also placed their neighbours in ever-greater danger from an increasingly insecure Russia, with catastrophic consequences once those tensions reached boiling point (which NATO, with its habit of overpromising and underdelivering security, ended up doing more to escalate than mitigate). So yeah, morally, it's Putin who's chiefly at fault, but the folks in charge of NATO were dangerously irresponsible with other people's lives against the threat of an aggressive dictator.
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Mar 17, 2022 11:25
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https://twitter.com/SimonCalder/status/1504389995007778818
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Mar 17, 2022 11:26
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My 'not going into liquidation shirt' has people etc. etc.
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Mar 17, 2022 11:29
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Cookie Cutter posted:Like how do you think the US would act if there was a militia on the Mexican border shelling American civilians for 8 years? That would beg the counter-questions of why Mexicans were considered to be American civilians and why the US was funding a Mexican militia. Because that's what's actually going on. The separatists in Eastern Ukraine are funded and supported by Putin, and they are only active within their own borders. Not that I expect you to listen. You just made it clear that you're making excuses for Putin to be defending himself and Russia. That's fascist appeasement, and you can gently caress off.
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Mar 17, 2022 11:31
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forkboy84 posted:No, what's not true is D&D's weird obsession with CSPAM being "pro-Russian" for not being insane liberal interventionists. CSPAM has some good people and some really good threads but it definitely does have some posters who will trip over themselves to make everything the fault of the west, and they don't get called out enough for it. Just as D&D has some 'insane liberal interventionists' who also don't get called out enough. Cookie Cutter posted:I get what you're saying. For me it's the "unprovoked" interpretation that I take issue with mainly, especially in light of things like, internal memos from the US side saying "if we keep doing this thing it will pressure an invasion of Ukraine", Putin saying for many years the same thing, 8 years of the west taking a blind eye to civilian killings by the Ukrainian side in the seperatist regions, etc. Like how do you think the US would act if there was a militia on the Mexican border shelling American civilians for 8 years? There's a lot there to add nuance to one's interpretation, and to add another voice in opposition to the "Putin is mad/Hitler" crowd, which I don't think is a helpful view of the situation in any way. Well in your example the Mexicans are shelling a part of Mexico by all international laws and those citizens are only
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Mar 17, 2022 11:32
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Borrovan posted:Fairly sure Ukraine hasn't been shelling Russia for 8 years Except, they have? Russia "proper" - no. But the breakaway regions, yes. Does this make a difference? Not to the nationalists in the Russian government, however sincere or insincere their intentions are to the breakaway republics, the population and geography are considered Russian, thus from their perspective their people have been shelled for 8 years. It's the failure to consider this perspective that has partially driven the escalation towards where we are not. E: or rather, not the failure, US knows this perspective exists. Cookie Cutter fucked around with this message at 11:48 on Mar 17, 2022 |
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Mar 17, 2022 11:32
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Cookie Cutter posted:Except, they have? Russia "proper" - no. But the breakaway regions, yes. Does this make a difference? Not to the nationalists in the Russian government, however sincere or insincere their intentions are to the breakaway republics, the population and geography are considered Russian, thus from their perspective their people have been shelled for 8 years. It's the failure to consider this perspective that has partially driven the escalation towards where we are not. If you annex part of another country and people from that country are not happy about that and start shooting you over it, I don't think that constitutes a valid reason to invade the rest of the country...
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Mar 17, 2022 11:41
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Oh right so feedmegin's version was accurate. More fool me for taking "for discussion's sake" in good faith, I guess.Jedit posted:That would beg the counter-questions of why Mexicans were considered to be American civilians and why the US was funding a Mexican militia. Because that's what's actually going on. The separatists in Eastern Ukraine are funded and supported by Putin, and they are only active within their own borders.
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Mar 17, 2022 11:41
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Seriously this is yank regime change 101 you shouldn't fall for it when the ruskies do it instead lmao.
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Mar 17, 2022 11:48
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OwlFancier posted:Seriously this is yank regime change 101 you shouldn't fall for it when the ruskies do it instead lmao. Did I say that I personally recognised the legitimacy of the breakaway republics? No, I didn't did I.
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Mar 17, 2022 11:54
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Mega Comrade posted:Well in your example the Mexicans are shelling a part of Mexico by all international laws and those citizens are only
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Mar 17, 2022 11:56
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Cookie Cutter posted:Did I say that I personally recognised the legitimacy of the breakaway republics? No, I didn't did I. But if you are trying to argue that the west is somehow responsible then whether or not russia imagines them to be legitimate is utterly irrelevant, you are essentially just saying "well they think it's a good idea" which, like, obviously? They wouldn't have invaded if they didn't think invading was a good idea. Why bring it up unless the suggestion is that they are somehow legitimate and that ukraine is at fault for "attacking russia". Invading in several steps does not, in fact, make it more nuanced than invading in one step. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 12:06 on Mar 17, 2022 |
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Mar 17, 2022 11:59
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Jedit posted:That would beg the counter-questions of why Mexicans were considered to be American civilians and why the US was funding a Mexican militia. Because that's what's actually going on. The separatists in Eastern Ukraine are funded and supported by Putin, and they are only active within their own borders. You think I don't know that? It still doesn't change the attitude of the people in the Russian government either way. Notice I'm not actually saying I agree with this position, because I shouldn't have to! Thanks for condescending to me about "what's really going on" and telling me to gently caress off though.
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Mar 17, 2022 12:01
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