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`Nemesis posted:yeah the building and its contents are a total loss so it's defensive ops only and much of that media was before additional crews arrived. there's probably not enough flow/pressure in the hydrants to deal with something of that size anyways. my question is did the building have a sprinkler system? if not, why the gently caress not? can a fire even get that big if there's properly designed and implemented sprinklers? Sprinklers aren't meant to put out the fire, they're meant to give occupants sufficient egress time.
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Mar 17, 2022 00:57
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spookykid posted:Sprinklers aren't meant to put out the fire, they're meant to give occupants sufficient egress time. that makes no sense whatsoever to me, got any reading material? i'm doing some google searches and not coming up with something that supports that.
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Mar 17, 2022 01:05
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https://va.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_r8s9skgX1O1s1ddrj.mp4
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Mar 17, 2022 01:17
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spookykid posted:Sprinklers aren't meant to put out the fire, they're meant to give occupants sufficient egress time. Reading NFPA 15, that doesn't appear to be true. In some situations, like large quantities of flammable liquids, the sprinkler system may be designed to control the spread of flames until the liquid is exhausted, besides that it seems that the system needs to be designed to extinguish the fire and prevent its spread.
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Mar 17, 2022 01:20
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Yeah call me crazy but putting out the fire seems like the most effective way to keep employees from dying in a fire.
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Mar 17, 2022 01:25
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`Nemesis posted:that makes no sense whatsoever to me, got any reading material? i'm doing some google searches and not coming up with something that supports that. I mis-spoke, I should have said the primary goal is mitigating loss of human life by allowing timely egress, and the secondary is to try for containment until the FD or whoever gets there. When you have 20 bales of rayon clothes on fire in under a couple minutes, the sheer amount of burning mass is not going to be contained by sprinklers.
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Mar 17, 2022 01:26
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Re: the huge Walmart distribution fire If ya'll remember, back in December a QVC distribution warehouse caught fire in North Carolina. It was 1.5M sqft. My company had multiple projects in that building, including MEP renovations and new sprinkler systems, and we were probably on track to be awarded a large facility expansion. From what QVC told us, the sprinklers we installed as well as the existing sprinklers all worked like they should. Unfortunately they completely drained the massive above ground water storage tank located at the edge of the property in something like a couple hours. By that point, a lot of the cardboard stored inside was already on fire. That was pretty much it for the building.
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Mar 17, 2022 02:09
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Cardboard is an efficient combustible yeah. 
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Mar 17, 2022 02:13
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Ornamental Dingbat posted:Yeah call me crazy but putting out the fire seems like the most effective way to keep employees from dying in a fire. Most effective sure but also the most expensive.
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Mar 17, 2022 02:17
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I worked in a decor paper factory after Highschool for a few months. I'll never forget opening up a dryer to clear a paper jam and seeing the propane was still on. The catwalk was covered in paper dust I was disturbing. I asked the operator to turn the dryers off while we were clearing the jam.
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Mar 17, 2022 02:34
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Kenning posted:If a delivery driver backs into your city water main because your complex doesn't have a proper loading dock, how long does it take, on average, for the water main to be repaired? Imagine this is in urban California. If it is really the main the city is on the hook and in my experience it will be fixed in a few hours of being reported. If it's a feed off the main into a building, the building owner is liable for providing utilities for tenets so they would need to get the pipe fixed quickly. If, as was my case, the pipe off the main feed into the dwelling was cracked and leaking water right next to the house, you have three days to get it fixed before the city starts fining you for wasting water. Is there any reasoning behind what appears to be preventing a spring from compressing? I'm looking at what appears to be an act of sabotage but I know in my heart of hearts that this is someone's "fix" for something.
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Mar 17, 2022 02:37
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LawfulWaffle posted:If it is really the main the city is on the hook and in my experience it will be fixed in a few hours of being reported. If it's a feed off the main into a building, the building owner is liable for providing utilities for tenets so they would need to get the pipe fixed quickly. If, as was my case, the pipe off the main feed into the dwelling was cracked and leaking water right next to the house, you have three days to get it fixed before the city starts fining you for wasting water. Spring stiffness was too low for the application, so instead of bigger spring or airbag suspension, welding ties to it makes it way stiffer, thereby allowing you to overload the newly damaged spring system by a dangerous and possibly criminal degree.
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Mar 17, 2022 02:48
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTL6hRlKJ_8
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Mar 17, 2022 02:53
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Methylethylaldehyde posted:Spring stiffness was too low for the application, so instead of bigger spring or airbag suspension, welding ties to it makes it way stiffer, thereby allowing you to overload the newly damaged spring system by a dangerous and possibly criminal degree. Also, welding spring steel (or even just near it) causes it to lose tensile strength and become incredibly brittle.
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Mar 17, 2022 03:31
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I'm in the last semester of my IH program ( ) and for my Occupational Safety Engineering course we have to pick a piece of equipment, a tool, a consumer product, an industrial process or industrial operation to scrutinize and perform a systems safety analysis on.Any fun ideas for what to tackle? I know garage door openers are pretty scary, or I was thinking maybe that chainsaw disc attachement for an angle grinder that was posted earlier. Not asking for the thread to do my homework! Just trying to think of fun/interesting subjects instead of doing same ol' same ol'
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Mar 17, 2022 03:54
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Scholtz posted:I'm in the last semester of my IH program ( Decor paper printing machines have sunken wells that you have to jump in to clean out the old ink before the next run. Confined space, toxic ink, and a mixer blade to contend with. I cut my finger tip off taking the brown paper wrap off a 8000lb roll of paper. I also ran over my foot with a 8 ft printing roller cart. It deformed my steelcap and punched it through the sole. I had to clean the inking blades that get sharpened to a razors edge by friction. Printing presses are a nightmare. One operator would spit dip into the ink well and his runs were always too yellow. He never figured out why he had to recolor so often.
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Mar 17, 2022 04:07
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Mar 17, 2022 04:58
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Sometimes I complain about not being able to pump my own gas in Oregon, but then again, it means poo poo like this doesn't happen.
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Mar 17, 2022 05:56
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iroc.dis posted:Re: the huge Walmart distribution fire
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Mar 17, 2022 06:01
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Look at the diameter of the average sprinkler pipe, then look at a fire hose and it's diameter. Then look back at the sprinkler pipe. Would you want to be a firefighter dealing with a dual-draw from the city volume you need for the hoses, while the entire sprinkler-system is essentially pissing on a bonfire?
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Mar 17, 2022 07:29
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the holding tank is there for a reason - a gigantic building is quite likely able to draw more water than the municipal system can supply. used to work at a place that had a diesel generator to power a pump that drew water from a pond to supplement the municipal supply cause if enough sprinkler sections popped there wouldn't be enough flow/pressure for any of it to be effective on the muni supply alone. As an aside, the pond had a trumpeter swan as a permanent resident, courtesy of the state DNR, so he could live out his days before kicking the bucket naturally. they tried to breed him but he kept attacking the female swans. he was a mean son of a bitch and you always had to know where he was if you needed to go to the pump house.
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Mar 17, 2022 07:43
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Huh, I wouldn't have thought a big sprinkler system would pull that much more than the rest of the city under normal use.spookykid posted:Look at the diameter of the average sprinkler pipe, then look at a fire hose and it's diameter. Then look back at the sprinkler pipe. Would you want to be a firefighter dealing with a dual-draw from the city volume you need for the hoses, while the entire sprinkler-system is essentially pissing on a bonfire? 
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Mar 17, 2022 07:48
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Knormal posted:Huh, I wouldn't have thought a big sprinkler system would pull that much more than the rest of the city under normal use. idk how big the municipal supply was, but that building had something like 30 8 or 10" risers, each one supplying a branch of the sprinkler system. that's a hell of a lot of water. edit: referencing the place i used to work
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Mar 17, 2022 07:56
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iroc.dis posted:Re: the huge Walmart distribution fire There are some big water tanks in the photo on the previous page, but they’re also smaller than the gigantic blaze. Often these large warehouses have pools beside them which I presumed are for rain water catchment and settling- given the huge non porous roof area.
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Mar 17, 2022 07:56
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This headline might explain the flammability: Employee says Walmart distribution center stored food, clothes, cardboard Here’s a satellite view showing the same corner as in the previous photo. See how small the tanks are relative to the building. Also those pools don’t look like great water for use in the sprinklers but the fire dept might find a use for them. Apple Maps view
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Mar 17, 2022 08:13
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Serjeant Snubbin posted:Often these large warehouses have pools beside them which I presumed are for rain water catchment and settling- given the huge non porous roof area. In Minnesota those pools don't freeze in the winter so I'm assuming their primary purpose is acting as a heat sink
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Mar 17, 2022 09:02
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Azhais posted:In Minnesota those pools don't freeze in the winter so I'm assuming their primary purpose is acting as a heat sink Good point, large pools can be used for a heat sink. But in that case wouldn’t they be lined with polythene instead of clay, and then wouldn’t there need to be visible heat exchangers? From the satellite photo there appear to be rectangles on the ceiling which would be air conditioning or heating units. I don’t know the climate there. I assume there is some snow in winter? Edit: I’m expecting a goon who designed or installed large warehouse pond systems to come sliding into the thread any minute now and explain what the pool is for. Serjeant Snubbin fucked around with this message at 09:15 on Mar 17, 2022 |
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Mar 17, 2022 09:08
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Serjeant Snubbin posted:This headline might explain the flammability: God, how many bags of cheetos were lost in that fire?
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Mar 17, 2022 11:39
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Its certainly good news that they were able to evacuate everyone from that Walmart facility. The QVC fire had one fatality, some guy that had only worked there for a few weeks. QVC announcing in January that they were abandoning the facility and laying off all 2,000 employees
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Mar 17, 2022 12:11
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spookykid posted:I mis-spoke, I should have said the primary goal is mitigating loss of human life by allowing timely egress, and the secondary is to try for containment until the FD or whoever gets there. When you have 20 bales of rayon clothes on fire in under a couple minutes, the sheer amount of burning mass is not going to be contained by sprinklers. Wow your fire suppression system sucks and you are wrong. My uncle works for big sprinkler.
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Mar 17, 2022 12:22
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You’ve played “the floor is lava”. Get ready for “the ceiling is lightning”. 
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Mar 17, 2022 12:24
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Serjeant Snubbin posted:Edit: I’m expecting a goon who designed or installed large warehouse pond systems to come sliding into the thread any minute now and explain what the pool is for. They look like pretty standard retention ponds to me. As you noted, when you build a huge warehouse (and its surrounding parking lots), you add a whole bunch of impermeable area, and so it's SOP to provide a place to handle the additional runoff that would otherwise sink into the ground if your building weren't there. Sometimes they're wet full-time (retention ponds), sometimes they're usually dry but fill up in heavy rainstorms (detention basins). Either way, they help out with managing stormwater, and, as a bonus, they improve the water quality of runoff so it's not just thousands of gallons of bird poo poo and hydrocarbons from the parking lot. They can also serve as artificial wetlands to help mitigate any that were lost as a result of construction, but these particular ones don't appear to be built with wildlife in mind.
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Mar 17, 2022 12:42
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https://i.imgur.com/wcojSxQ.gifv
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Mar 17, 2022 13:55
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I don't know if I am impressed or horrified.
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Mar 17, 2022 14:14
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`Nemesis posted:that makes no sense whatsoever to me, got any reading material? i'm doing some google searches and not coming up with something that supports that. quote:Sprinklers are so effective because they react so quickly. They reduce the risk of death or injury from a fire because they dramatically reduce heat, flames, and smoke, allowing people the time to evacuate a home. Home fire sprinklers release approximately 10-25 gallons of water per minute. In a home without sprinklers, a fire is likely to grow to dangerous levels by the time the fire department is able to arrive. Also, on the sprinkler subject, have the NIST recreation of The Station nightclub fire without sprinklers and what it could have looked like if there were sprinklers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxiOXZ55hbc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT1EWVR1iP8
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Mar 17, 2022 14:33
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From the Shad thread BlackIronHeart posted:https://i.imgur.com/fgFOSrg.mp4 E: Sprinklers can contain or put out a fire, but it depends on how they are designed and the circumstances of the individual fire. A small fire may be immediately put out any where, but there is a lot of space between a residential fire load and one at some place like a chemical plant. Most commercial fire suppression systems generally have the design criteria being the delay of the spread of the fire and hopefully put it out. A system that could put out, not just suppress a fire in a facility the size of the Amazon distribution center would be cost prohibitive and need special infrastructure for the storage and pumping of massive quantities of water. That much water would also ruin most of the inventory and cause extensive water damage to the facility that would put the building out of commission for an extended period of time so you won't be saving much. Better to size the system to save the people and then just get insurance. Much cheaper. So sprinkler systems may put out a fire and may be designed to do that, but it's not common for most commercial applications. -Zydeco- fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Mar 17, 2022 |
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Mar 17, 2022 16:03
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GWBBQ posted:NFPA https://www.nfpa.org/Public-Educati...sprinklers-work That layer of smoke 
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Mar 17, 2022 16:05
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Knormal posted:Huh, I wouldn't have thought a big sprinkler system would pull that much more than the rest of the city under normal use. It's not that it pulls more than the rest of the city, but that water transmission and distribution is a pressurized network. There may be plenty of capacity at the nearest municipal distribution storage, but if the burning warehouse is at relatively higher elevation (reduces pressure), or if it's a long way from the storage facility (cumulative friction losses), or if the warehouse was built at the rear end-end of the system and they didn't upsize the pipes all the way back to the storage facility, there may be a pressure/flow constraint limiting the ability to get the water there with sufficient pressure to do anything. That's why supplemental on-site storage and pumps are often required for large warehouses.
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Mar 17, 2022 16:52
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Thomamelas posted:I don't know if I am impressed or horrified. I'm impressed as hell
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Mar 17, 2022 16:52
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wesleywillis posted:God, how many bags of cheetos were lost in that fire? I believe the correct unit of measure is teracalories of cheetos...
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Mar 17, 2022 16:59
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