|
Lord_Magmar posted:As an interesting example, the recently released yugioh master duel basically does a combination of dusting and wildcards, in that you dust cards into equivalent rarity materials. So dust a common get 10 common card points, dust a rare get 10 rare card points. How is this different than Hearthstone where you can dust 4 rares to get a new rare or 4 legendary to get a new legendary, and a golden card dusts for 4x its regular price so you can trade it for in for an normal version of the same rarity? Common dust are worthless but it's exceedingly unlikely that you're being bottlenecked by missing commons
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 16:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 09:16 |
|
|
flatluigi posted:dusting is extremely short term gains for long term loss - you might be able to make one deck marginally quicker but you're sacrificing all progress to make any other decks. if that first deck isn't good, or falls out of the meta, or rotates you're stuck with it until you rebuild the rest of your collection from scratch. Is there a way to effectively do this with some kind of import? I can't imagine sitting there auto clicking each common/uncommon 4x to cash in WC's I guess you could some how create a deck based around this and hit craft all? Why am I even typing this instead of looking at YouTube lol
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 16:58
|
|
|
You can click the 4th pip to do 4 copies at once, but that's it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 17:00
|
|
|
Like seriously every complaint here and on Twitter and Twitch is "why do I not get more stuff for less money". Which, sure, would be nice, but how many times do we need to ask this rhetorical question?
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 17:08
|
|
|
Lone Goat posted:How is this different than Hearthstone where you can dust 4 rares to get a new rare or 4 legendary to get a new legendary, and a golden card dusts for 4x its regular price so you can trade it for in for an normal version of the same rarity? Because you can only get shards for the same type of cards. So it's more like 3 cards of a type equal a wild card of the same rarity, as opposed to hearthstone where dust is all the same no matter where it's from and the amount changes.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 17:09
|
|
|
I’m okay with asking people to be responsible and not dust their whole collection impulsively if it means I can turn the absolutely unplayable 90% of the rares/mythic I open into good cards. We shouldn’t be designing games around people potentially doing stupid things.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 17:19
|
|
|
"We should not design our game around human behavior." says man who has never interacted with human beings.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 17:28
|
|
|
resistentialism posted:You can click the 4th pip to do 4 copies at once, but that's it. Found a better way https://github.com/LukeCroteau/mtg_arena_wildcard_files/tree/main/Sets So yeah, you can copy and paste directly as an imported decklist with each common/uncommon at 4x and just craft all. loving sweet
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 17:28
|
|
|
fadam posted:I’m okay with asking people to be responsible and not dust their whole collection impulsively if it means I can turn the absolutely unplayable 90% of the rares/mythic I open into good cards. We shouldn’t be designing games around people potentially doing stupid things. I’m pretty sure that’s what game design is though shroud got replaced by hexproof because it turned out that expecting people to remember what shroud actually does ended up causing issues, if i remember correctly
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 17:30
|
|
|
Toshimo posted:"We should not design our game around human behavior." says man who has never interacted with human beings. I’m a human, and I wouldn’t dust my entire collection to build one deck. I absolutely would dust the four copies of Mirror Box I’ve opened to get a card I actually would play. I’m not super pressed to get a dust system, but I think the argument “but people might regret dusting cards!” isn’t compelling to me.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 17:31
|
|
|
fadam posted:I’m not super pressed to get a dust system, but I think the argument “but people might regret dusting cards!” isn’t compelling to me. "Saving people from themselves" is absolutely a big part of F2P game design, where a player is expected to be a future line of income, and not just a single purchase of the game. People ruin their own experiences, feel bad, and then turn that bad feeling onto the game and stop playing/buying. Arguing that putting a metaphorical loaded gun into your customer's hand can only have positive repercussions is a bit naive. WotC spends (or should spend) a bunch of money on developing techniques to maximize the F2P income of Arena, and an argument that a proposed change to the system is a slam-dunk improvement to the bottom line, shows a lack of modesty. Edit: If the argument is "I would like a system where I can dust cards" then that's fine, but the counter-argument is "It probably doesn't make financial sense, or they would have done it, so don't hold your breath"
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 17:55
|
|
|
neaden posted:they would make enough This is not really a concept applicable to financialized capitalism.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 17:58
|
|
|
See I’m really lazy I would of just doubled the daily gold and quest gold rewards and moved on with my day
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 17:59
|
|
|
There's also every chance that adding dusting or whatever would just require tuning the economy in other ways, like reducing pack payouts or the wildcard rate from packs. Again, WotC are tuning the economy to get a certain amount of cash out of it, they aren't giving people a free lunch unless they need to drive more players to the platform, and clearly they seen to think they are getting enough people and so want to get as much out out of them as possible. This economy update seems really targeted towards whales which if you're FtP or a low spender is what you want, you wan WotC trying to juice the big spenders for all they're worth and leaving you alone.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 18:01
|
|
|
basically everyone assumes that there would be a somewhat favorable dusting rate when they advocate for dusting, like "oh i can take my 400 useless uncommon wildcards and turn that into 100 rare wildcards and now can craft playsets of all the good rares for the next couple sets". or "oh i can take my 4,000 useless uncommons and turn those into 250 rare wildcards". also i assume that one reason they don't want dusting is because it would make it way too obvious that everything in a pack other than the rare is completely useless
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 18:03
|
|
|
I still wish they had a like.. a "historic" subscription or whatever where I don't own any of the cards, but I can build whatever dumb idea I have floating around my head to mess with terrible jank for fun. Kind of like those phantom event stuff they do on MTGO where you have every modern legal card/legacy legal card for a weekend, but let me just pay to do that all the time Magic for me is more of a social game to play in person, despite some of the people you run into sometimes I guess, but I'd probably pay a pretty decent amount per month to just be able to play whatever I'd like when the fancy strikes me
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 18:05
|
|
|
Elvis_Maximus posted:I still wish they had a like.. a "historic" subscription or whatever where I don't own any of the cards, but I can build whatever dumb idea I have floating around my head to mess with terrible jank for fun. Kind of like those phantom event stuff they do on MTGO where you have every modern legal card/legacy legal card for a weekend, but let me just pay to do that all the time One thing WotC has been very paranoid about with Arena is splitting the queues too much. They are really really reluctant to add permanent new game types for that reason. I remember some goon who was into Historic Brawl saying they would get paired with the same people immediately after a game ended so you'd need to have a queue with definite appeal even if it's something you're already paying for.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 18:12
|
|
|
MikeCrotch posted:Like seriously every complaint here and on Twitter and Twitch is "why do I not get more stuff for less money". Given that it costs them nothing to make these changes? Forever
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 18:20
|
|
|
MikeCrotch posted:Like seriously every complaint here and on Twitter and Twitch is "why do I not get more stuff for less money". Last time I tried answering a question similar to this I got probated, I shan't be fooled again. Lord_Magmar posted:Because you can only get shards for the same type of cards. So it's more like 3 cards of a type equal a wild card of the same rarity, as opposed to hearthstone where dust is all the same no matter where it's from and the amount changes. Why is multiple dusts better than one dust?
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 18:27
|
|
|
Elvis_Maximus posted:I still wish they had a like.. a "historic" subscription or whatever where I don't own any of the cards, but I can build whatever dumb idea I have floating around my head to mess with terrible jank for fun. Kind of like those phantom event stuff they do on MTGO where you have every modern legal card/legacy legal card for a weekend, but let me just pay to do that all the time Card rental services are basically exactly like this and are a big reason why I've had so much fun with MTGO recently.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 18:38
|
|
|
Devor posted:"Saving people from themselves" is absolutely a big part of F2P game design, where a player is expected to be a future line of income, and not just a single purchase of the game. People ruin their own experiences, feel bad, and then turn that bad feeling onto the game and stop playing/buying. Yeah, fair points, I guarantee they crunched the numbers and figured out it wasn't lucrative enough to bother with a dust system. But TBF, that's the only reason they haven't bothered, and I think painting their decision to not include it as being pro-consumer or saving people from themselves is kind of dumb. For instance, I think calling it a 'loaded gun' is a bit much lol, the absolute worst thing that happens is someone loses some cards. Hearthstone is still pretty popular despite having a 'loaded gun' since the beginning. I don't think they're ever going to add a dust system, and I'm not sure if I even want it, but I think something to mitigate how annoying it is that most of the rares/mythics you get aren't constructed playable would be nice. When I played Hearthstone even a lovely rare was like 1/4th of a card so it was still exciting getting rare rewards. In MTGA you open some janky piece of poo poo and your only consolation is that you're now a fraction of a percent closer to opening the vault. fadam fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Mar 18, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 18:47
|
|
|
fadam posted:Card rental services are basically exactly like this and are a big reason why I've had so much fun with MTGO recently. Yeah, I've been thinking about starting that up actually because I really just want to try out a bunch of jank crap. Are you using card hoarders?
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 18:47
|
|
|
Elvis_Maximus posted:Yeah, I've been thinking about starting that up actually because I really just want to try out a bunch of jank crap. Mana traders.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 18:48
|
|
|
Card rental is dope but it's still pricy if you wanna play like modern for instance
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 18:50
|
|
|
Elvis_Maximus posted:I still wish they had a like.. a "historic" subscription or whatever where I don't own any of the cards, but I can build whatever dumb idea I have floating around my head to mess with terrible jank for fun. Kind of like those phantom event stuff they do on MTGO where you have every modern legal card/legacy legal card for a weekend, but let me just pay to do that all the time A monthly subscription model that let people either rent X number of precons (based on the top 10 deck archetypes in a given meta) or get a certain number of wildcards to build a deck would do numbers. $15: 2 preset decks, or build 1 custom deck $20: 3 preset decks, or build 2 custom decks $30: 5 preset decks, or build 3 custom decks. Not sure if that would be the right calibration on numbers, pricing, etc - I don't tend to have more than 4 or 5 decks sitting around in any one format at any time but a lot of people love to brew random kooky stuff so maybe it would need to be higher to hook that crowd. Presumably people would still buy Mastery Passes, gem packs, alternate arts, etc. The precon thing could be a challenge, since WOTC is notoriously private with a lot of the data that comes out of Arena but if the upside was large enough that's not insurmountable. Would it be more profitable than the current economy? Only WOTC knows, and I'm sure they've run enough internal testing to at least have a comparative idea.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 19:48
|
|
|
Don't they have an all access event that pops up from time to time? Like when alchemy first came out and there was a big rebalancing?
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 19:54
|
|
|
Mat Cauthon posted:A monthly subscription model that let people either rent X number of precons (based on the top 10 deck archetypes in a given meta) or get a certain number of wildcards to build a deck would do numbers. if that happened then people would just stop opening packs altogether i'm pretty sure? i don't know what the upside you're suggesting is here other than 'it's significantly cheaper than current mtga' which, yes, people want to get more of what they want for less money HootTheOwl posted:Don't they have an all access event that pops up from time to time? yeah, not only is that continuing to happen but as mentioned on the stream they're gonna put in a way to try out decks all the time without spending money on them (though idk if it'll be "try out vs sparky" or "try out in direct challenge w/ friends")
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 19:54
|
|
|
fadam posted:Card rental services are basically exactly like this and are a big reason why I've had so much fun with MTGO recently. This model has proven itself to the point where two of the LGS I play at use it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 19:56
|
|
|
fadam posted:Yeah, fair points, I guarantee they crunched the numbers and figured out it wasn't lucrative enough to bother with a dust system. But TBF, that's the only reason they haven't bothered, and I think painting their decision to not include it as being pro-consumer or saving people from themselves is kind of dumb. For instance, I think calling it a 'loaded gun' is a bit much lol, the absolute worst thing that happens is someone loses some cards. Hearthstone is still pretty popular despite having a 'loaded gun' since the beginning. One thing you'll see in a lot of gacha games is a "lock" or "safety" that you can put on characters and items, so they can't be sold, traded, dusted, whatever, without manually disabling the lock, so folks don't accidentally destroy the 5 star waifu they'd been rolling for while cleaning up all the other pulls. Given how prevalent is it in other games, it can't be too difficult to add a similar thing to MGTA, to make it more difficult to accidentally dust cards you want to keep around.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 20:01
|
|
|
Five bucks a month and you get like 8 mythic, 12 rare super-widcards which are like placeholders to finish any deck where you lack the proper amount of wildcards. There I fixed the Arena Economy. Hire me, WOTC
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 20:02
|
|
|
HootTheOwl posted:Five bucks a month and you get like 8 mythic, 12 rare super-widcards which are like placeholders to finish any deck where you lack the proper amount of wildcards. $5/month<$50. sorry you're fired.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 20:05
|
|
|
fadam posted:I don't think they're ever going to add a dust system, and I'm not sure if I even want it, but I think something to mitigate how annoying it is that most of the rares/mythics you get aren't constructed playable would be nice. When I played Hearthstone even a lovely rare was like 1/4th of a card so it was still exciting getting rare rewards. In MTGA you open some janky piece of poo poo and your only consolation is that you're now a fraction of a percent closer to opening the vault. you're misremembering it a bit: dusting a rare over there is 1/5th of another rare, 1/50th of an epic, and 1/80th of a legendary -- and you get a quarter of that from dusting commons progress to vault completion is (as said outright on stream) about the payout of a theoretical dust system in MTGA
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 20:07
|
|
|
You are lucky that we left the vault in, you’re welcome
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 20:23
|
|
|
Devor posted:"Saving people from themselves" is absolutely a big part of F2P game design, where a player is expected to be a future line of income, and not just a single purchase of the game. People ruin their own experiences, feel bad, and then turn that bad feeling onto the game and stop playing/buying. Yeah this is all correct but after thinking a while I'm concluding maybe arena oughtn't to be an F2P game at all and then you could sidestep all this bullshit completely.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 20:28
|
|
|
Mat Cauthon posted:A monthly subscription model that let people either rent X number of precons (based on the top 10 deck archetypes in a given meta) or get a certain number of wildcards to build a deck would do numbers. Assuming I can rotate the decks, I'd almost certainly do that for $20 a month, which is definitely more than the $0/month they've been getting from me till now. Honestly I'd probably grab a pass or two as well just cause I suppose that'd have implications on the whale side of things though. Then again, I guess they could just supplement that by making more cosmetic stuff for people to buy
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 20:32
|
|
|
Fuzzy Mammal posted:Yeah this is all correct but after thinking a while I'm concluding maybe arena oughtn't to be an F2P game at all and then you could sidestep all this bullshit completely. there's a hell of a lot of people who wouldn't be playing arena if you couldn't play it with spending little to no money. not everyone has hundreds of dollars to spend up front on paper or modo
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 20:32
|
|
|
flatluigi posted:you're misremembering it a bit: dusting a rare over there is 1/5th of another rare, 1/50th of an epic, and 1/80th of a legendary -- and you get a quarter of that from dusting commons Even if it is about the same payoff (I'd have to see the math, it really doesn't feel like it is lol), it's nicer to be able to get the cards you want on demand rather than waiting for the vault meter to tick over. It's cool that in Hearthstone their version of Mirror Box isn't just a giant waste of a card drop. I don't want to sound like a downer or that I'm anti-Arena or anything because I have legitimately probably spent over a thousand hours playing MTGA since closed beta (substantially less after the Alchemy announcement, admittedly), but it just sucks that it's been worked on for so long and the only major changes (other than the cards themselves, which are actually pretty good!) run strongly counter to what I like/enjoy about Magic. I wish the economy was better for people who aren't F2P, and I wish there was more of a focus on tournaments instead of ladder, and there's been basically no positive movement on either front for years now. I can't remember the last time they had a big live letter thing and the response was entirely positive. fadam fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Mar 18, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 20:32
|
|
|
I'm remembering during beta, when we had to yell at them to stop requiring wins only for daily quests. We had to yell at them to implement Bo3. We had to yell at them to get friend lists and direct challenges. Then we had to yell at them to even let historic be a thing. Then we had to yell at them to make historic cards not cost double wildcards. never stop yelling at them, they are incapable of good decisions and need to be reminded that frequently
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 21:02
|
|
|
my buddy sent me this And. It seems accurate? Why would anyone do the Wcs? Don't you get a wildcard every 5 packs?
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 21:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 09:16 |
|
|
Ghislaine of YOSPOS posted:my buddy sent me this it's for the use case of pro players and the like who want to build a specific deck for an arena open or something, and don't care about all the other ancillary stuff you get from opening packs (because they don't generally care about arena) it's a limited use case but it's at least something people were complaining about fairly often before; I just think people didn't do the math and didn't expect them to sell it for about the same price they already 'sold wildcards' at
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 21:25
|
|