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The ending of matches are 100% percent determined before they begin - only a catastrophic failure/supercritical ego explosion might result in a shoot rebooking of the outcome. The spots that get you to that conclusion may be planned out in advance or decided on the fly, depending on the promotion and/or experience of the wrestlers.
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Mar 18, 2022 14:28
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It's real to me damnit
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Mar 18, 2022 15:04
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BiggerBoat posted:I just remembered this but didn't Warrior and Lowtax/Leonard Crabs have some kind of internet feud way back? they dabbled with shoot matches here and there but they always end up bad. example Butterbean a fat boxer won by knocking out some guy in 30 seconds (the guy got fired). There was a segment where Kurt Angle was humiliating trainees by slapping then around but one of the trainees (Daniel puder, an actual cage fighter) got him locked into a submission and almost broke Kurts arm, etc
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Mar 18, 2022 15:48
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No matter how bad your job is at least you're not Bart Gunn Imagine being in a business where if you make a tiny mistake at work your spiteful boss sends Butterbean to beat the poo poo out of you
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Mar 18, 2022 16:22
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BiggerBoat posted:I just remembered this but didn't Warrior and Lowtax/Leonard Crabs have some kind of internet feud way back? My time to shine. Yes. Warrior and the tax man did have a little scuffle in 2006(?). I knew his "Director of Communications" in grad school, Chris. Chris was always looking to work for b or c list celebrities with promotions, conventions, etc. Warrior was on his "Queerin's Don't make the world go 'round" East Coast tour and ended up in Knoxville, TN. Chris had convinced him to come and later was asked to work for him. For free. With a promise of money later on. So he did. Warrior was always searching for any use of his name on the internet and found Lowtax's writing. Chris was promptly directed to fix it. Lowtax, of course, just took it as the joke it was and got Mr. Crabs on the case. It's a pretty funny exchange. Then goons got hold of it. I remember talking on the phone to Chris when his hard drive was wiped clean by somebody. I was also there when Chris called a guy at work and apparently got him fired (I think it was confirmed by the guy later). He was signed up for all sorts of spam and porn. Eventually it all wound down, Warrior had a meltdown and Chris quit his "job". Later Warrior wanted him back and sent him a box of Warrior merch. You see, Warrior had (still has?) a warehouse full of his merch to sell off or archive as needed. Including a huge number of of BDSM Santa comics. All in all just a weird paranoid dude who was also a gigantic rear end in a top hat.
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Mar 18, 2022 16:44
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Burning Beard posted:You see, Warrior had (still has?) a warehouse full of his merch to sell off or archive as needed. I mean, his family may still have a warehouse, but I doubt Warrior does.
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Mar 18, 2022 16:49
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BiggerBoat posted:I just remembered this but didn't Warrior and Lowtax/Leonard Crabs have some kind of internet feud way back? It's 100% all staged (other than some instances of people intentionally going out of their way to hurt someone, which may or may not get you blackballed), some things will be planned out in advance and some are improvised in the ring. That said, there was a quote in Mick Foley's book about Vader that went along the lines of, "Some people's moves look like poo poo and hurt, which is bad. Some people's moves look devastating but don't hurt at all, which is good. Vader left no room for error - his poo poo looked like it hurt and it mostly did.". A lot of pro wrestling is that stuntman thing of knowing how to hurt yourself in safe ways but not to actually injure yourself, if that makes sense. What you're mostly reading, though, I think is about politics. At some point, Vince McMahon can't chase someone to the ring with a shotgun and force them to lose to someone they otherwise refuse to work with. He can fire them, but if they're a major name star or the current champion of the world, that's a bad look. Obviously, if Jimmy Fartmouth goes and does that, he's just getting fired and not coming back, but if Hulk Hogan turns around and says that he's not losing clean to Bret Hart, then there's not a lot you can do with that. And Hogan would end up having that essentially written into his WCW contract, which naturally led to shenanigans down the road. There's a famous match between Hogan and Shawn Michaels from Hogan's later return to WWE where Michaels was originally supposed to win as it was a rematch, but Hogan refused point blank and would have just walked out, so instead Hogan won said rematch and Michaels spent the match clownishly selling all of Hogan's offense by bouncing around the ring like a fish out of water.
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Mar 18, 2022 16:57
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Thanks for the replies. I was just reading a lot of stuff like "The Sonic Hedgehog pulled off a devastating clothesline leg drop that Captain Steroid kicked out of and hosed up the match leading to good guy losing his poo poo backstage and threatening to quit" and poo poo like that so, not knowing much about the sport, began to wonder how much they actually work out in the ring itself. I remember watching a YT doc about WM3 where Hogan wasn't sure that Andre would put him over and it seemed weird that ever be any degree of uncertainty with this stuff, especially once they'd gotten in the ring. I suppose it's a testament to the good writing here that I actually started to wonder. Speaking of which, a few of these effort posters should seriously consider writing a book, which they've basically already half done. Forums poster "jerusalem" did amazing write ups in The Sopranos and The Wire threads in TVIV and I was encouraging him to publish that poo poo. And I guess Warrior and Lowtax are in a steel cage match in hell right now battling it out while Manager Leonard J. Crabs gets up to some shady poo poo by the turnbuckle.
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Mar 18, 2022 17:22
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BiggerBoat posted:Thanks for the replies. So, wrestling isn't (usually) well rehearsed and choreographed like most dance numbers or action scenes. Which means accidents happen. What you're hearing about in this thread is usually the 20-100 times something went wrong and an audible needed to be called or improv needed to happen or someone needed to step in. But since it's live, you just see it happen. And for a brief moment, the curtain gets pulled back. Like watching a magician trip on a cord and then a flock of birds comes flying out of his suit. I'd say that 99% of matches and shows work out fine, which is why we don't care about them. I can tell you about 20000 times where guy A powerbombed guy B and everything went smoothly. But the 1 time D'lo botched it and paralyzed Droz, that makes it to the thread. (I feel bad for everyone in that story, and by all accounts it's a legit accident which makes it even more sad. Like if Droz was on coke or D'lo was a known dangerous worker it'd be one thing, but nope, just two good guys having a match where something went wrong  ) But because of lived gimmicks and careers tied to scripts, and giant roided out egos, you end up with a lot of babies getting into slap fights because if they lose to Fart Dookman then they won't be champion anymore and (here's the rub) champions make more money, and sell more merch, so there's a literal cash incentive to be a politicking douche.
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Mar 18, 2022 17:41
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BiggerBoat posted:I remember watching a YT doc about WM3 where Hogan wasn't sure that Andre would put him over and it seemed weird that ever be any degree of uncertainty with this stuff, especially once they'd gotten in the ring. It should probably be noted here (and I did a big Hoganbullshit effortpost in the old thread that I may just copy) that Hulk Hogan's telling of his own history is somehow more full of elaborately stupid lies than anything Donald Trump has claimed. But there's some truth in the idea that in the era where they didn't openly say wrestling was pretend that every show featured ten dudes who all thought they were the big star and would go out of their way to make each other look bad. And of course, the person who did that exponentially more than anyone else in the history of the business was Hulk Hogan. That said, Shawn Michaels has said pretty openly that if he didn't like you in the mid-90s, he'd go in and wrestle with you at 100mph, in full knowledge that your cardio would fail before his did. And well, Vince, I tried my best, but what can a guy do with ol' wheezy over there? Maybe cut him loose.
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Mar 18, 2022 17:41
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The irony being that Tony Khan has said recently that he's had to put his foot down to stop his top modern stars from coming up with their own booking ideas and wanting to lose every week. No, Barry, you're being paid $5m a year, you can't lose to seven up-and-coming rookies in a row before we put you in a world title programme, just go out there and do your moves
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Mar 18, 2022 17:45
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FullLeatherJacket posted:The irony being that Tony Khan has said recently that he's had to put his foot down to stop his top modern stars from coming up with their own booking ideas and wanting to lose every week. This has some real humblebrag energy.
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Mar 18, 2022 17:51
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FullLeatherJacket posted:The irony being that Tony Khan has said recently that he's had to put his foot down to stop his top modern stars from coming up with their own booking ideas and wanting to lose every week. I really hope AEW sticks around for the long run. All the reports are pretty optimistic and honest about how toxic the Carny side of the industry is. I've been watching MLW on YouTube, and it's not bad!
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Mar 18, 2022 18:03
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The thing is, in this very thread, we've talked about how wrestlers are booked in really lovely ways and part of really lovely storylines. I can't fault wrestlers being a bit protective of their image and having an idea of where things should go, and that clashing with a guy running up to you with a script on how you're being coerced into a gay wedding with your tag team partner (a real thing that happened on tv). There's probably a really fine line between "I have an ego and I insist on being booked to look good" and "This booking is absolute trash and will bury us all and I've got to push back." Sometimes I feel like wrestling would greatly benefit from having an off-season that gave people a chance to look at a bigger picture and sort their ideas out.
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Mar 18, 2022 18:09
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The thing with AEW is that the EVPs are all veteran pro wrestlers who hate that old school toxic locker room environment and who have intentionally tried to kill it and do the opposite. They've learned that if everyone cooperates to make each other look strong then the losses don't matter as much and you have way less insecure babies throwing tantrums backstage or acting like a muppet in the ring because you're pissed that you have to lose to someone you don't like. The wrestling business is stressful enough already and if you minimize backstage politics it makes for an environment where wrestlers are more likely to enjoy coming to work and actually looking forward to wrestling. If I were a wrestler that's exactly what I'd want.
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Mar 18, 2022 18:19
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So if I'm reading it all right the soap opera behind the soap opera is more real than anything and dealing with all these Monsters is probably harder than pulling off a show?
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Mar 18, 2022 18:24
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BiggerBoat posted:So if I'm reading it all right the soap opera behind the soap opera is more real than anything and dealing with all these Monsters is probably harder than pulling off a show? There's a clear generational element at play. Guys that came up in territory days are desperate to protect themselves because they're used to being booked at the poopleton country wrestlefest on Thursday and then the steel series wrestling federation on Monday. So If you do a job or two at the wrong time, you won't get your big payday and look like a loser, Brother. Guys from the work/shoot era play into the blurring of real life and wrestling because it's the new kayfabe that gets the marks to pay up so they're stupid drama queens on purpose to drive up ratings (hi Phil). And then you have the fans that got into it because they just loving love wrestling. And AEW seems like the place for them to shine. They're not trying to protect thier position on the card because they know it's a show and they're not trying to make drama because they have to work there. By all accounts, Jericho is this kind of guy. And I couldn't be happier that he gets to run a fed that's obsessed with showmanship, ring work, and not being toxic dicks to each other. I hope AEW makes it. But history has told a different story so far.
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Mar 18, 2022 18:34
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BiggerBoat posted:I remember watching a YT doc about WM3 where Hogan wasn't sure that Andre would put him over and it seemed weird that ever be any degree of uncertainty with this stuff, especially once they'd gotten in the ring. I suppose it's a testament to the good writing here that I actually started to wonder. Speaking of which, a few of these effort posters should seriously consider writing a book, which they've basically already half done. Forums poster "jerusalem" did amazing write ups in The Sopranos and The Wire threads in TVIV and I was encouraging him to publish that poo poo. There's a great Andre the Giant graphic novel biography by Box Brown that instead of having a basic narrative, is just a bunch of fun Andre stories told in chronological order. They go over this situation, which boils down to Andre being a prankster who genuinely liked Hogan, but especially liked messing with Hogan. In the weeks leading up to WM3, Andre was hanging out with Bret Hart backstage and noticed Brutus Beefcake (Hogan's buddy) nearby. Knowing that Beefcake was in earshot, Andre just started talking about how he wasn't sure if he was really going to let Hogan win and who knows what's going to happen when the bell rings? OF COURSE Beefcake told Hogan, who called Vince up in a panic because what the gently caress was he going to do if Andre decided to go into business for himself? Vince assured him that Andre was a professional and all would be good. Then again, as FullLeatherJacket said, never trust anything Hogan says. As you brought up the Wire, Hogan constantly reminds me of that dickhead reporter guy from the last season who proceeds to lie at every opportunity even when there's zero reason to do it. Hogan is the biggest name in wrestling history and it's somehow never enough for him.
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Mar 18, 2022 18:39
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BiggerBoat posted:The way the writer(s) describe the matches reads like the outcome is almost always in doubt and that there is actually some level of skill and competition determining who wins and loses. Is that just for narrative effect or do the guys often decide in match who's going to take the loss, how, who's going to interfere, etc? The most succinct explanation comes from the scene near the end of Aronofsky's "The Wrestler" where our hero, Randy The Ram Robinson, asks his upcoming opponent The Ayatollah if he'd like to go over what they're going to do in their match that night. Ayatollah, played by the great Ernest "The Cat" Miller, just says, "Ramrod... you be the good guy, I'll be the bad guy."
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Mar 18, 2022 19:08
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imo the only flaw with the Wrestler is that someone as popular as Randy was would have probably gotten a lifetime gig at WWE or started fleecing money marks at TNA
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Mar 18, 2022 19:19
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16-bit Butt-Head posted:imo the only flaw with the Wrestler is that someone as popular as Randy was would have probably gotten a lifetime gig at WWE or started fleecing money marks at TNA I think Randy was supposed to be more on the level of say, Jim Duggan than Hogan
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Mar 18, 2022 19:31
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Randy was Jake Roberts. He could have been set for life, but his demons consumed him.
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Mar 18, 2022 20:04
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I loved the Wrestler and Mickey Rourke and Morissa Tomei were great in it. Dave Barry cameo too! But since you guys brought it up, it got me to thinking whether there's an angle to make another film on the same subject matter. GLOW was good and proved there's a market for it. There's a million boxing, football, baseball and basketball movies but really very few wrestling ones. Even a biopic about Hogan, Andre, MTV and the whole 1980's WM3 heyday I think would be really cool. I suppose the issue there is where do you get two seven foot guys who can not only act but also physically look enough like those two to make it come off? If you could find a giant massive guy that could pass for Andre, I think a straight drama on him would make a fantastic movie. The documentaries I've watched about him, especially the HBO one, were fascinating. Hell, even if you just did a period piece with Gorgeous George and led that into a drama where the 2nd act act covered the rise of cable TV and ultimately, in the 3rd, it was into the PPV era and all that where the movie dug into the seedy underbelly of the sport I think you might have something. I could see a biopic of Chyna working as well. I imagine there's the problem of Vince having to sign off on anything and lord knows he won't do that if it paints him in a bad light or exposes too much. But then again, Vince will sign off on anything if the money is right so who knows? And now I found myself thinking... Who plays Vince in a movie? I googled it and think all the ideas I saw suck. For some reason, Bradley Cooper's name is there a lot. After thinking about it for 2 minutes, I want Woody Harrelson.
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Mar 18, 2022 20:15
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I'm voting for Michael Shannon to play Vince
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Mar 18, 2022 20:19
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diet wrestling thread needs more funny dumb wrestling poo poo here is a classic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6S2ysN5izk
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Mar 18, 2022 20:31
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I don’t know who plays Vince, but I want Danny McBride to play Jerry Lawler.
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Mar 18, 2022 20:48
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TheSwizzler posted:I'm voting for Michael Shannon to play Vince That reminds me. In Groundhog Day, Bill Murray buys WrestleMania tickets for Michael Shannon and his wife. Considering when the movie was made, they were tickets for WrestleMania 9. Poor guy.
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Mar 18, 2022 20:49
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BiggerBoat posted:
Tom Cruise
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Mar 18, 2022 20:55
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Montreal Screwjob movie Adam Driver as Bret Hart
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Mar 18, 2022 20:56
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SirPhoebos posted:Randy was Jake Roberts. He could have been set for life, but his demons consumed him. if only DDP had been around to teach him yoga and help him overcome his demons...
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Mar 18, 2022 20:58
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Watching these clips, holy poo poo, there's nothing like this in the world where you're the center of attention of thousands of people multiple times a week, all year. And they WANT to hear you talk and CHEER and BOO and REACT to *you*. There hasn't been anything like this since Vaudeville, coincidentally the last time that the theater was working class. Goddamn if you weren't a narcissist going into that gig holy poo poo would you be afterwards.
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Mar 18, 2022 21:54
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Remulak posted:Watching these clips, holy poo poo, there's nothing like this in the world where you're the center of attention of thousands of people multiple times a week, all year. And they WANT to hear you talk and CHEER and BOO and REACT to *you*. Closest thing is politics. Or Hollywood. Do wrestlers get into those fields? I wonder
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Mar 18, 2022 23:16
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Trollologist posted:Closest thing is politics. Or Hollywood. Do wrestlers get into those fields? I wonder Politics or hollywood where you'll probably get away with giving a threatening up and comer a severe neck injury to protect your spot
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Mar 18, 2022 23:24
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TheSwizzler posted:I'm voting for Michael Shannon to play Vince That one definitely crossed my mind And for whatever reason, my favorite scene in The Wrestler is when Randy and the little kid are playing Nintendo in the trailer where Micky Rourke has an in game character but the boy is really bored by the old graphics and poo poo. He wants to play Call of Duty. The Ram wants to go one more one more game and relive his glory with 8 bit graphics. It was a well done scene that shows how yesterday's news and washed up Randy is with quite a bit of literal symbolism thrown in that somehow manages not to beat you over the head with it. "One more game" BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Mar 19, 2022 |
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Mar 18, 2022 23:56
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TheSwizzler posted:Adam Driver as Bret Hart
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Mar 19, 2022 00:32
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One thing I'm curious about is the storywriting team for this thing. I've seen a few head writers mentioned, but is this one person writing every storyline? Seems like a lot of work, but if not, who are all the other people and how does their job work? For instance, all these house shows where the wrestlers are constantly showing up at Anytown USA: who's scripting those dozens of shows? I read somewhere that those are used to test future storylines, but that suggests that execs are following all this little shows and gathering feedback.
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Mar 19, 2022 03:01
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Xotl posted:One thing I'm curious about is the storywriting team for this thing. I've seen a few head writers mentioned, but is this one person writing every storyline? Seems like a lot of work, but if not, who are all the other people and how does their job work? they pitch stories to Vince McMahon and he gets angry and shoots it down in favor of his own ideas (incest)
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Mar 19, 2022 03:08
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Xotl posted:One thing I'm curious about is the storywriting team for this thing. I've seen a few head writers mentioned, but is this one person writing every storyline? Seems like a lot of work, but if not, who are all the other people and how does their job work? With AEW it's literally one guy writing everything, but he tells talent that they're free to come up with their own ideas and stories so he doesn't have to do literally everything. He also doesn't write word for word scripts like WWE writers do. He gives the general idea of the story to tell and trusts the wrestlers to do their thing with promos and matches. Bob defeats Joe but Ed interferes on Bob's behalf. Stuff like that. The WWE, on other hand, literally employs a team of like 20 professional television wtiters from shows you've probably heard of, like King of Queens and such. And as mentioned, they all have crushed souls and do the bare minimum because Vince is insane and will throw out all their work on a whim and either demand new material on super short notice or he'll just make some poo poo up himself. Someone mentioned this in one of the effortposts but at one point Vince McMahon was writing all of Roman Reigns' promos for him and Roman couldn't adlib anything. He had to say everything word for word, including a promo where he had to say "sufferin' succotash, son!" with a straight face and try to make it sound cool and badass. It sounded neither cool nor badass. Elephant Ambush fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Mar 19, 2022 |
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Mar 19, 2022 03:27
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Speaking of writers, I'd like someone to do a breakdown of the one and only,
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Mar 19, 2022 04:06
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TheSwizzler posted:Politics or hollywood where you'll probably get away with giving a threatening up and comer a severe neck injury to protect your spot jesus, there are American politicians channeling Warrior currently
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Mar 19, 2022 04:13
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