|
I think nowadays influencers are just a big part of marketing games? And yes the whole relationship is very incestuous and I don't really have a great deal of sympathy for the streamers either, mostly I would just like the whole relationship to collapse because I think that is better for the consumer. CA can eat poo poo, I owe them nothing and they are clearly only interested in maximising their revenue, streamers likewise I don't think actually care about the quality of the game compared to making money promoting it. To hell with the lot of them really.Doomykins posted:OK so I don't want to be a jackass here but genuinely curious, what are video game streamers unionizing to protect themselves from? Do they need legal power to hold CA accountable for releasing WH3 and it ... isn't as fun as predicted? The streamers even got what they were promised already, the views and monetization of their January WH3 early access videos. What crime is CA committing, because unions are to protect workers from company abuse. The streamers aren't even employed by the company here. I sincerely don't get what foot they can stand on here. I mean ideally a more organized influencer group would be able to leverage against developers for better terms on what they can publish, very ideally that would include far more leeway to be critical of the game and no NDAs, on the basis that if the developers don't agree to that they simply don't get their game covered, but that requires a higher degree of coordination or integrity than I expect them to be capable of. Gaming press has always been little more than repeating whatever game companies want them to. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Mar 19, 2022 |
#
?
Mar 19, 2022 20:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 19:03 |
|
|
Gonkish posted:Yeah, the game has issues, CA has recognized them and is working on it, and some random dude on Youtube... wants to unionize people who... are independently employed and don't actually get paid by CA? I think that's more of a "him" problem. Volound isn't exactly a nobody. You could say he was a bit of a "LegendofTW" back in the Rome 1/ Medieval 2 days. Except he became bitter around the release of Empire TW and has gone down the toilet of toxicity ever since.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2022 21:00
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:I mean ideally a more organized influencer group would be able to leverage against developers for better terms on what they can publish, very ideally that would include far more leeway to be critical of the game and no NDAs, on the basis that if the developers don't agree to that they simply don't get their game covered, but that requires a higher degree of coordination or integrity than I expect them to be capable of. Gaming press has always been little more than repeating whatever game companies want them to. Alright that makes sense and is a good starting point. Unfortunately it's also a scenario where I think the game devs still have all the power and absolutely no legal liability. "We're not covering your game." "OK, you're not getting early access." Just puts us back where we were. It will also be brutal to be the streamers who stand up to the devs/corps while watching others do the early access streams anyway.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2022 21:03
|
|
|
Doomykins posted:As much as I respect the endless hustle decent creators do when they push too hard like this it's hard to do anything but laugh in their faces. Like poo poo, the best thing that could happen to Legend regarding his post about quitting WH3 streaming would be for it to be forgotten. He can sheepishly come back to his money pump next month. Sheepishly? Didn't he straight up say that he'll start streaming again once Immortal Empires comes out?
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2022 21:39
|
|
|
Staltran posted:Sheepishly? Didn't he straight up say that he'll start streaming again once Immortal Empires comes out? I don't think what he wrote was all that bad, but I saw a video where he came off as unhinged and he was telling people to boycott DLC and poo poo. I don't think he should like quit the series because he lost his mind for a bit, but a little sheepishness would probably be appropriate.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2022 21:41
|
|
|
Oh yeah, undoubtedly content creators have a right to unionize should they see fit to do so. I came off too flippant. I'm not opposed to unionization, but that guy is... I don't know that he's the proper representative for it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2022 21:45
|
|
|
Unions are great and all but I don't see them working here. Sure they can sort of pressure game devs (No more free marketing for you) but it only takes one or two streamers to break rank and it all falls apart. Or other streamers come in and do it instead, or new streamers pick up the slack. You need to be able to exert some pressure on your peers, and streamers can't do that to each other. It'd be up to the viewers to enforce the union, and lol if anyone thinks that'll actually happen in any great number.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2022 21:50
|
|
|
Funky See Funky Do posted:Everyone should be able to unionize. It shouldn't be specific to Total War games and should broadly include video game streamers/content creators in general but there 100% should be a union. I mean, I'm pro union but streamers and content creators are generally self employed so I don't see how a union can benefit them much. His complaints mostly just have to do with certain aspects of the gameplay that he doesn't like. I guess they could all band up and boycott streaming CA until they..... fix the chaos realms or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2022 21:59
|
|
|
A unionization of streamers would be something to help them versus the streaming platforms not the video games companies. If a video game isn't well received, you gotta maybe pivot this is the entertainment industry. God, I wish the SAG protected us from bad movies.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2022 22:00
|
|
|
I think when some people talk of unionism in this context they are kind of like the people who think a video game consumer is a shareholder in how the game should be. And to a small extent I agree but realistically that's not how it works. Far better to unionize the people who created the actual content so that things like crunch and spaghetti code are not an issue. As soon as they decided each game was going to be unified in the way we expect now they should have been proactive about establishing this from the ground up to avoid issues like Norsca in Mortal Empires.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2022 22:54
|
|
|
Streamers should absolutely unionise but that would only be to cut better deals and - more importantly - protect themselves from exploitation by Twitch or Youtube or Blip.tv or whatever. Being really good at pressing the 'recruit armour-piercing ranged units' button doesn't make you a CA employee so I don't understand how there would be a relationship in this case at all. All the same, streamers/Youtubers/(ugh) influencers certainly fit into an identifiable role within marketing structures, which is gross and lame. I feel like it's totally fair for them to be annoyed at being essentially responsible for a lot of the marketing (specifically that aimed at existing fanbases). Though aside from a formerly racist Australian I haven't seen any of the Youtubers getting mad about that stuff, just flaws with the actual game itself. But I haven't been looking very closely tbh
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2022 22:57
|
|
|
Lolling at a streamer union. They'll just get undercut by the million other people willing to eat poo poo for a chance at the bigtime.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2022 23:05
|
|
|
Carcer posted:Unions are great and all but I don't see them working here. Sure they can sort of pressure game devs (No more free marketing for you) but it only takes one or two streamers to break rank and it all falls apart. Or other streamers come in and do it instead, or new streamers pick up the slack. The only way it could influence CA is that if the streamers unionised to obtain employment contracts from CA. To become, essentially, paid second-tier community managers with terms and benefits. This might be a degree of separation too many ? It might be beneficial to look at unionizing and drawing up contracts with the streaming platform instead. Which game features on a channel is kind inconsequential as people watch for personality of the streamer..I guess.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2022 23:29
|
|
|
From the titles on his videos alone that Volound guy is legit deranged. And he's been doing this since E:TW?!
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 00:01
|
|
|
I think even if streamers perfectly unionized and didn't scab each other out that the game devs would still have all the power. Hell, a lot of companies could just prop up an employee streamer or vtuber and run exclusive hype streams of their videogame before release. If there was a world where no WH2 streamer was willing to do early access for WH3 and GW sponsored an Empire Soldier Girl Vtuber to show the ONLY early WH3 gameplay footage in the world, how fast would that sub count grow?Staltran posted:Sheepishly? Didn't he straight up say that he'll start streaming again once Immortal Empires comes out? CA announced yesterday that next month they're patching a majority of the worst RoC complaints and enabling mod workshop support so you can casually customize the game to remove CA's vision of Tzeentch ripping you off at random and other injustices. It will be at least a small test of will especially since IE could very reasonable be 3-6 months out. But maybe taking a break will feel better than wanting to dive back in to him. He's been consistent on disaster battle videos for the last two weeks. A Perfect Twist posted:Which game features on a channel is kind inconsequential as people watch for personality of the streamer..I guess. There are several streamers essentially trapped playing more popular games because their views and money dip dramatically if they stop. A good example is Dead By Daylight streamers. There are streamers that get by on personality over game choice but it's tough to be in that spot. Doomykins fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Mar 20, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 00:09
|
|
|
Doomykins posted:I think even if streamers perfectly unionized and didn't scab each other out that the game devs would still have all the power. Hell, a lot of companies could just prop up an employee streamer or vtuber and run exclusive hype streams of their videogame before release. Aren’t the “real” content creators here the developers of the game? In my opinion, they did a fantastic job with the little race reveal trailers. I did not watch any pre-release streams or any of that, though I know it mostly effectively reaches a different demographic. I think if people want pre-release streams, they would go to whatever source has those, and if there were an organized boycott or embargo(?) by TW content creators, I think you’re 100% correct that the publisher would do it themselves- the results might not be as good as an established streamer, but whatever.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 00:31
|
|
|
I feel like this would be a matter for a lawyer in terms of NDAs.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 00:46
|
|
|
Whether or not "content creators" are actually creating anything by recording themselves partaking of things made by people who actually create is a messy debate for another time and place. WH streamers are trying to force the issue because.. well, the polite and optimistic take is that they're naive. Anything more critical and they look pretty foolish. FWIW I'd say really good content creators at least have bonafide skills in editing and entertainment. They also tend to become informative experts in their interest. But I laughed really god drat hard Volound said without a hint of irony that CA was "harvesting the output of our labor." Where would those cads who made the videogame be without me to obsessively play it? Uh.. still making video games, I wager!
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 00:50
|
|
|
Doomykins posted:I think even if streamers perfectly unionized and didn't scab each other out that the game devs would still have all the power. Hell, a lot of companies could just prop up an employee streamer or vtuber and run exclusive hype streams of their videogame before release. If there was a world where no WH2 streamer was willing to do early access for WH3 and GW sponsored an Empire Soldier Girl Vtuber to show the ONLY early WH3 gameplay footage in the world, how fast would that sub count grow? You're so close to getting it. An employee has (at least in theory) rights protected by law. Streamers are only not employees of the streaming services they make content for because of a deliberately exploitative abstract created by those streaming services to deny power to those workers.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 00:53
|
|
|
I meant an internal employee, like a CA or GW employee. Like all the WH2 streamers refuse to sign NDAs and be your free marketing so you just do the most lowest common denominator marketing thing you can think of and have an extroverted girl from the office be your vtuber streamer for a month or two. They could also hire a freelance streamer and make them into one there, though at that point they'd be under even more corporate guidelines and NDAs then before as well as general company standards(i.e. can't gently caress off and not stream TW today because Elden Ring came out, etc.) But hey, steady paycheck and maybe their big feedback reports would actually reach the devs and be acknowledged. And I'd agree that streamers might want to unionize against Youtube or Twitch but that's not going to give them an in against CA because "NDA mean, game actually bad."
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 00:58
|
|
|
I wouldn't mind if streamers got together to make life difficult for publishers, but that's less because of NDAs and more like the insane poo poo from early access streaming stuff where CA/SEGA demand that you not 'review' a game by saying if you like it or not as you're streaming it, or SquareEnix demanding you say "Thank you SquareEnix" every 20 minutes if they give you a game code. I don't see it happening though, just because of the underlying competitiveness of streaming in general.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 02:38
|
|
|
Funky See Funky Do posted:Everyone should be able to unionize. It shouldn't be specific to Total War games and should broadly include video game streamers/content creators in general but there 100% should be a union. no disagreement here with the principle as expressed but the problems these streamers have with the games are exclusively creative, not business. they don't think the games are fun enough after playing for 12 hours a day, every day, for a month. not that they're getting ripped off by unfair terms and conditions (the most relevant of those, of course, are set by youtube and twitch, not sega). they want to collectively bargain on behalf of the fans to make creative decisions about game balance and design? the gently caress? you going to let the people at wookiepedia write the next star wars movie?
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 03:02
|
|
|
Streamers unionizing against a platform is one thing (since they are making money off of it), but this all started with legend and others being pissed at CA about gameplay in WH3 and making a union because they don't like the chaos realm mechanic is just lol.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 03:33
|
|
|
DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:no disagreement here with the principle as expressed but the problems these streamers have with the games are exclusively creative, not business. they don't think the games are fun enough after playing for 12 hours a day, every day, for a month. not that they're getting ripped off by unfair terms and conditions (the most relevant of those, of course, are set by youtube and twitch, not sega). they want to collectively bargain on behalf of the fans to make creative decisions about game balance and design? the gently caress? you going to let the people at wookiepedia write the next star wars movie? No, people are using union and guild interchangeably because most people don't know poo poo about labor relations because capital has been waging an incredibly effective information war against that kind of knowledge for decades now. And, also, because the line between a guild and a union can be quite blurred, especially in america, where a lot of the legal protection stuff is bundled into unions for various historical reasons. Content streamers want to from a guild, but needs the legal protections of unions and union structures. The person who mentioned SAG upstream actually gets it. This is effectively what FaZe Clan is, although their guild structure is more...Medici in nature than the broader based employee representation you'd want. A hypothetical Streamers Guild (hell, SAG should probably just try and absorb that, but that's a larger derail) would want to do collective bargaining with the streaming platforms themselves, and then help set general guidelines for the broader industry that would set standard rates and expectations around things like amount of prep time for videos, needing a CM as a point of contact, accountability for time put into making videos, yada yada. Its different enough that being its own thing makes a certain amount of sense, but they already blur in a very weird way, would probably ultimately make sense to bolster numbers. Also, you know, if you think unions are a good thing, you should be helping and getting the people who have the most direct access to the widest audiences to like you and advocate for you. ANYWAYS. The above is broadly what people are generally thinking of when they say "unionize", unless they are an insane person saying they should try to form a union with CA, in which case they are either deeply uninformed or very insane.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 03:45
|
|
|
TaintedBalance posted:unless they are an insane person saying they should try to form a union with CA, in which case they are either deeply uninformed or very insane.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 04:07
|
|
|
drat Dirty Ape posted:I mean, I'm pro union but streamers and content creators are generally self employed so I don't see how a union can benefit them much. His complaints mostly just have to do with certain aspects of the gameplay that he doesn't like. I guess they could all band up and boycott streaming CA until they..... fix the chaos realms or whatever. beaten but the model would not be UAW contracting with Ford or w/e, it'd be SAG-AFTRA. it's not collective bargaining with a single employer but rather a professional association that sets standards for how various engagements are conducted and compensated which obligates it members to uphold those standards or be ejected. such an org would make sense but wouldn't address anything i've seen total war people complain about--you can set a requirement that early access for marketing requires a set fee schedule for guild members or whatever, but a "game must be good for content creation out the gate" requirement makes no sense because it's subjective and incredibly complex. you can easily pay $X more because dollars are fungible; you cannot magically add 30 arbitrary gameplay quality units to a game you could conceivably add a "no review embargo" guild rule but it seems pretty ludicrous because idk what influencers would really gain from it--worst case you don't like the game and just no comment any viewer requests for opinions. people that are truly on the fence about buying will just wait til after review embargoes end anyway
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 05:32
|
|
|
the actual model they are fumbling for to deal with their grievances is like broadcasters cooperating with the rules committees of various major league sports to make it more exciting television
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 05:37
|
|
|
legends will never not be funny for being broken brained
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 06:15
|
|
|
CW should give Legend his union and then make videos about their cheese strats to get around the contract
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 06:29
|
|
|
hey guys I got my union dues to pay so hit that patreon up yo thanks like subscribe twitter photobucket
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 06:42
|
|
|
remember how they were not supposed to stream ogre content but could stream ogre content if someone else was playing ogres
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 06:59
|
|
|
i don’t know how you can hate the chaos realms when Ku’gath teleports there it shows you don’t actually teleport you move really fast so he briefly leaves a 10000 mile long diarrhea trail on the campaign map
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 07:15
|
|
|
lmao i never noticed that, that rules
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 07:18
|
|
|
Twigand Berries posted:i don’t know how you can hate the chaos realms when Ku’gath teleports there it shows you don’t actually teleport you move really fast so he briefly leaves a 10000 mile long diarrhea trail on the campaign map Do not wish upon the brown shooting star I beg of you
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 07:46
|
|
|
the skaven rocket was not nearly as blasphemous
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 07:58
|
|
|
Doomykins posted:As much as I respect the endless hustle decent creators do when they push too hard like this it's hard to do anything but laugh in their faces. Like poo poo, the best thing that could happen to Legend regarding his post about quitting WH3 streaming would be for it to be forgotten. He can sheepishly come back to his money pump next month. Why would he sheepishly come back when he went "I'll come back when the game is fixed." --> "Oh they fixed the game, guess I'll come back", isn't that literally him doing what he said he'd do?
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 09:32
|
|
|
Honestly the only comically stupid part of Legend's entire meltdown was him actively going off like an immature moron on stream. Him going "yeah I'm not happy with how the game is right now and I'm not terribly happy about my experience in the creator program so I'm backing off on streaming until the game is in a better spot" would be completely reasonable. I honestly even agreed with a fair amount of his grievances(though not all of them). Instead he had a big ol' tantrum meltdown where he comes off like an angry child.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 09:56
|
|
|
I remember when Disguised Toast did a video on how much money he made streaming Hearthstone, and it was a lot. Really a lot. But his income didn't come from Blizzard, it came from Youtube and Twitch. So unionizing against the video game companies doesn't make much sense to me. One should also recognize that CA leaving the marketing to the streamers was not a one-sided deal. The streamers make money with every person who clicks their vids, and they definitely got more clicks because they could show off material of the upcoming game that nobody else got access to, leading to more clicks and more money. That said, forming a guild to give more structure to their employment (and maybe make it so that they don't have to feel the need to stream far too many hours each day) sounds like a fine idea in general.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 10:12
|
|
|
If the complaint is that the game is bad then it makes ample sense to go after the developers. Like you can use the tactic to get whatever you want it doesn't just have to be used for labour disuputes or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 10:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 19:03 |
|
|
How does the vassal stuff with Slaanesh work? These norscans are at 100% seduction but I can't vassalize them?
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 10:22
|
|
