Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
(Thread IKs: fart simpson)
 
  • Post
  • Reply
gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

Antonymous posted:

it's like pointing out that the KKK was started by democrats. ok yeah sure but what do you mean by it?

The Democrats: racists yesterday, racists today

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Spergin Morlock
Aug 8, 2009

Mayman10 posted:

I can't even think of a dumb opinion you could have on spears

the atlatl was overrated

Endman
May 18, 2010

That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even anime may die


gradenko_2000 posted:

He believes that:

A. Spears (and pikes) when used in massed/army formations were never used to thrust or stab with, that people were just... pushed out of the way when faced with the array of forward-pointing speartips

B. At the same time, spears are the absolute best weapon to duel with, because you always outrange your opponents, and he "proved" this by arranging a bunch of duels with HEMA enthusiasts and claiming that he won most of his fights

lmao what

Did he hear the term "push of pike" and just assume that meant just pushing the other pike block out of the way? It did not work like that in the slightest; it was in fact an astonishingly brutal affair where you'd be likely to be impaled on a pike and pushed down it further by the men behind you in your own formation. The casualty rate among pikemen was obscene.

As for B. I guess HEMA enthusiasts are as dumb as most reenactors, or he's just lying and assuming real life runs on Dungeons & Dragons rules where a spear gives you an extra square of reach for no detriment.

cenotaph
Mar 2, 2013



Mantis42 posted:

True but this narrative goes back to at least Edmund Burke. The American Revolution was okay because they based their concept of liberty in property rights and didn't attempt to change the "natural" hierarchy. French revolution was bad not just because of the rampant violence and unstable government, but because it threatened to go beyond the bourgeois order and conceive of a more radically egalitarian society.

This is actually the exact argument I dreamt up right after I hit post, or maybe I had just heard it before and forgot about it, lol.

Mayman10
May 11, 2019

gradenko_2000 posted:

He believes that:

A. Spears (and pikes) when used in massed/army formations were never used to thrust or stab with, that people were just... pushed out of the way when faced with the array of forward-pointing speartips

In a generous reading he could be misunderstanding the objective of Hellenistic warfare. Of course more likely he's an arrogant larper.

indigi
Jul 20, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 14 hours!

Mantis42 posted:

True but this narrative goes back to at least Edmund Burke. The American Revolution was okay because they based their concept of liberty in property rights and didn't attempt to change the "natural" hierarchy. French revolution was bad not just because of the rampant violence and unstable government, but because it threatened to go beyond the bourgeois order and conceive of a more radically egalitarian society.

doesn’t the banality of evil lady walk herself back to this position from “the Russian Revolution was good but then Stalin ruined it” by the end of her career

fart simpson
Jul 2, 2005

DEATH TO AMERICA
:xickos:

gradenko_2000 posted:

He believes that:

A. Spears (and pikes) when used in massed/army formations were never used to thrust or stab with, that people were just... pushed out of the way when faced with the array of forward-pointing speartips

B. At the same time, spears are the absolute best weapon to duel with, because you always outrange your opponents, and he "proved" this by arranging a bunch of duels with HEMA enthusiasts and claiming that he won most of his fights

wouldnt a gun be even better for dueling?

comedyblissoption
Mar 15, 2006

spear duelists btfo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeeoEpmyb2Y

Tankbuster
Oct 1, 2021

Dreylad posted:


Historiography tends to work like a pendulum where people overcompensate for the dominance of one narrative and swing hard in the other direction. That's not always a bad thing, like in the case of the 'clean Wehrmacht' narrative, but it may help explain why you suddenly see a surge of In Defense Of The British Empire all of a sudden. Contemporary events like Brexit also help drive poo poo like that too.

Where is this surge?

JAY ZERO SUM GAME
Oct 18, 2005

Walter.
I know you know how to do this.
Get up.


Chamale posted:

In honour of Ukraine, all of the Russians have been removed from this photo


Frosted Flake
Sep 13, 2011

Semper Shitpost Ubique

There is some good research into questions like “how did spears work?”. Men of Bronze: Hoplite Warfare in Ancient Greece is pretty comprehensive.

Men of Bronze takes up one of the most important and fiercely debated subjects in ancient history and classics: how did archaic Greek hoplites fight, and what role, if any, did hoplite warfare play in shaping the Greek polis? In the nineteenth century, George Grote argued that the phalanx battle formation of the hoplite farmer citizen-soldier was the driving force behind a revolution in Greek social, political, and cultural institutions. Throughout the twentieth century scholars developed and refined this grand hoplite narrative with the help of archaeology. But over the past thirty years scholars have criticized nearly every major tenet of this orthodoxy. Indeed, the revisionists have persuaded many specialists that the evidence demands a new interpretation of the hoplite narrative and a rewriting of early Greek history. Men of Bronze gathers leading scholars to advance the current debate and bring it to a broader audience of ancient historians, classicists, archaeologists, and general readers.

After explaining the historical context and significance of the hoplite question, the book assesses and pushes forward the debate over the traditional hoplite narrative and demonstrates why it is at a crucial turning point. Instead of reaching a consensus, the contributors have sharpened their differences, providing new evidence, explanations, and theories about the origin, nature, strategy, and tactics of the hoplite phalanx and its effect on Greek culture and the rise of the polis.

I thought Lindybeige was a working historian doing public outreach, like ACOUP. Is he just some guy?

Tankbuster
Oct 1, 2021
Lindy is famous for being some historical crank youtuber who speaks funny and is bri'ish.

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

Chamale posted:

In honour of Ukraine, all of the Russians have been removed from this photo


Jose
Jul 24, 2007

Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer
this seems good

https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1505367310206394371?t=SnzekXNZxN3S5gr4gl9Ogg&s=19

ughhhh
Oct 17, 2012

Tankbuster posted:

Lindy is famous for being some historical crank youtuber who speaks funny and is bri'ish.

He is a wacky British smarty-pants which means he is a)racist b)sexist c)a pedophile. He admitted to the first two in his videos. Don't know about C tho.

AnimeIsTrash
Jun 30, 2018

https://twitter.com/TurkmenDc/status/1504689018629505044

The new multipolar world looks pretty cool.

fart simpson
Jul 2, 2005

DEATH TO AMERICA
:xickos:

i mean, as somebody who isn’t particularly athletic and has no training, id probably pick a spear over a sword for a duel if i had to. seems a lot easier to stab someone with a sharp pole and keep them away from you than it is to kill someone and get out alive with a sword. you guys ever chop wood and get the edge alignment off? the axe or hatchet can just roll over or bounce off without doing much. a swords probably tricker

GlassEye-Boy
Jul 12, 2001
Best weapon for a duel is double shield. No one can hit you and will exhaust themselves to death trying!

Atrocious Joe
Sep 2, 2011

they are trying to attack they crazy conservative from the right? isn't that why the liberals lost the election.
https://twitter.com/AskAKorean/status/1505180221711994881
https://twitter.com/AskAKorean/status/1505182229596721152

Truga
May 4, 2014
Lipstick Apathy

Atrocious Joe posted:

they are trying to attack they crazy conservative from the right? isn't that why the liberals lost the election.

p. deece trump energy lmao

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.

fart simpson posted:

i mean, as somebody who isn’t particularly athletic and has no training, id probably pick a spear over a sword for a duel if i had to. seems a lot easier to stab someone with a sharp pole and keep them away from you than it is to kill someone and get out alive with a sword. you guys ever chop wood and get the edge alignment off? the axe or hatchet can just roll over or bounce off without doing much. a swords probably tricker

I mean prob depends but my vague understanding of tactics is that a spear is a pretty sucky weapon for fighting other people unless you have friends around with a lot of em, if they get past the point you've basically got a big unwieldy pole.

fart simpson
Jul 2, 2005

DEATH TO AMERICA
:xickos:

Ghost Leviathan posted:

I mean prob depends but my vague understanding of tactics is that a spear is a pretty sucky weapon for fighting other people unless you have friends around with a lot of em, if they get past the point you've basically got a big unwieldy pole.

rey did pretty well with a big unweildy pole before she got her lightsaber

Dreddout
Oct 1, 2015

You must stay drunk on writing so reality cannot destroy you.

Maximo Roboto posted:

The KMT was allied with the Soviets against the Japanese, and Stalin literally favored them over the CPC for being a “Leninist” party in terms of organization if not ideology
Then why'd the soviets turn Manchuria over to the cpc and not the kmt?

indigi
Jul 20, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 14 hours!

fart simpson posted:

rey did pretty well with a big unweildy pole before she got her lightsaber

that’s not a nice thing to say about Adam Driver

Frosted Flake
Sep 13, 2011

Semper Shitpost Ubique

Didn’t the KMT start the Chinese Civil War by killing Communists in Shanghai out of the blue?

Mantis42
Jul 26, 2010

The USSR had Chiang Kai Shek's kid, they had him by the balls. They got him to fight the Japanese for eight years and at the end of it they stripped Manchuria of it's heavy machinery and handed the land over to Mao. Pretty smooth ngl

indigi
Jul 20, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 14 hours!

Mantis42 posted:

The USSR had Chiang Kai Shek's kid, they had him by the balls. They got him to fight the Japanese for eight years and at the end of it they stripped Manchuria of it's heavy machinery and handed the land over to Mao. Pretty smooth ngl

more info on this please

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Frosted Flake posted:

It's not that bizarre - the Soviet archives were opened as a consequence of the fall of the USSR, the same time new nationalisms were being formed in former SSRs, identifying with Nazi collaborators.

I agree that western historians have been at best credulous when it comes to this. There have been some great recent titles that show, for example, Soviet soldiers hardly ever killed German POWs after 1942, the vast majority of Soviet citizens liberated from the Reich weren't hassled and quickly passed Filtration, and just how many collaborators came from these Baltic and Ukrainian nationalists. In fact, one historian recently wrote:

‘Without these auxiliaries, the Germans could have carried out neither genocide nor their rapacious exploitation of their victims. There simply were not enough Germans . . . to implement Nazi population policy and simultaneously to fight a war against most of the rest of the world.’ With their collaboration in Operation Reinhard, the Trawniki men helped to inflict ‘some 28 percent of the human loss sustained by the European Jews during World War II’.

TRAWNIKI GUARDS: FOOT SOLDIERS OF THE HOLOCAUST

That's without addressing that Beevor's account of East Prussia, according to Kershaw in The End is a literal retelling of Nazi propaganda, taken at face value. . This false equivalence is absolutely disgusting and we've fostered it by supporting rightwing psychos in Eastern Europe so that they remain anti-Russian and anti-Socialist/Communist. The cost of NATO expansion was wholly falsifying the popular historiography of the Holocaust.

Look at all this talk of genocide denial in CSPAM.


For real though this poo poo is like staring into a bottomless pit.

Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011

Atrocious Joe posted:

they are trying to attack they crazy conservative from the right? isn't that why the liberals lost the election.
https://twitter.com/AskAKorean/status/1505180221711994881
https://twitter.com/AskAKorean/status/1505182229596721152

yep its been a lot of fun watching liberals throw literally every popular moon jae in initiative in the trash can and then act perplexed when people think that both the major parties are basically the same

Mandoric
Mar 15, 2003

indigi posted:

more info on this please

Chiang's biological son Ching-kuo was considered promising but not especially beloved, and turned left during his school years which fell during the first CPC-KMT alliance. He applied to study in Moscow at the Sun Yat-sen University for the Toilers of China, a Comintern program to give Chinese revolutionaries a grounding in theory. While there, he took to his lessons enthusiastically but also sided with Trotsky politically; some combination of that and the KMT purge meant he was sent to work at Uralmash, where he was politely but firmly kept, with occasional offers of exchange for imprisoned CPC officials rejected by Chiang, until the thaw of the Second United Front allowed him to return to China. During the civil war, he attempted to take an anti-bourgeois approach as governor of Shanghai, but was sacked when he stepped on the wrong toes; as the KMT position on the mainland collapsed, however, he developed, whether by necessity or by the tendency of some Trots to be more concerned with perfecting the instrumentality of a party-state than with which ideology it particular it espoused, a method of applying Soviet methods to mainstream KMT goals, first as head of the security services where his major impact was an adoption of Soviet-style political controls on the RoC military, and then as his father's successor in a reign marked by large centrally-planned industrial development and the choice of another ex-Communist capable administrator Lee Teng-hui as his successor rather than...

Chiang's adopted sun Wei-kuo, considered beloved but not especially promising, who in one of history's most hilarious examples of bet-hedging was sent to the Munich Kriegschule. There he lead a small Panzer unit during the Anschluss before being receiving a commission and being assigned to a unit intended for use in the invasion of Poland. He was recalled to China before he was mobilized, however, and served mainly as a liaison with the Americans during the war; later he was mostly sidelined from politics or direct command and given a series of sinecures in staff positions after a subordinate attempted but failed a 1964 coup calling for more integration with western powers.

lobotomy molo
May 7, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Mandoric posted:

There he lead a small Panzer unit during the Anschluss before being receiving a commission and being assigned to a unit intended for use in the invasion of Poland.

quote:

calling for more integration with western powers.

yeah checks out

Mayman10
May 11, 2019

Frosted Flake posted:

There is some good research into questions like “how did spears work?”. Men of Bronze: Hoplite Warfare in Ancient Greece is pretty comprehensive.


Awesome book recommendation, thank you.

indigi
Jul 20, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 14 hours!

Mandoric posted:

Chiang's biological son Ching-kuo was considered promising but not especially beloved, and turned left during his school years which fell during the first CPC-KMT alliance. He applied to study in Moscow at the Sun Yat-sen University for the Toilers of China, a Comintern program to give Chinese revolutionaries a grounding in theory. While there, he took to his lessons enthusiastically but also sided with Trotsky politically; some combination of that and the KMT purge meant he was sent to work at Uralmash, where he was politely but firmly kept, with occasional offers of exchange for imprisoned CPC officials rejected by Chiang, until the thaw of the Second United Front allowed him to return to China. During the civil war, he attempted to take an anti-bourgeois approach as governor of Shanghai, but was sacked when he stepped on the wrong toes; as the KMT position on the mainland collapsed, however, he developed, whether by necessity or by the tendency of some Trots to be more concerned with perfecting the instrumentality of a party-state than with which ideology it particular it espoused, a method of applying Soviet methods to mainstream KMT goals, first as head of the security services where his major impact was an adoption of Soviet-style political controls on the RoC military, and then as his father's successor in a reign marked by large centrally-planned industrial development and the choice of another ex-Communist capable administrator Lee Teng-hui as his successor rather than...

Chiang's adopted sun Wei-kuo, considered beloved but not especially promising, who in one of history's most hilarious examples of bet-hedging was sent to the Munich Kriegschule. There he lead a small Panzer unit during the Anschluss before being receiving a commission and being assigned to a unit intended for use in the invasion of Poland. He was recalled to China before he was mobilized, however, and served mainly as a liaison with the Americans during the war; later he was mostly sidelined from politics or direct command and given a series of sinecures in staff positions after a subordinate attempted but failed a 1964 coup calling for more integration with western powers.

thank you

Fuligin
Oct 27, 2010

wait what the fuck??

John Charity Spring posted:

his book on Stalingrad is comical too, very concerned with Soviet war crimes against Germans but stressing how much the Germans liked their Ukrainian HiWi auxiliaries and so on lol

literally just finished reading this and it made me want to scream

eSports Chaebol
Feb 22, 2005

Yeah, actually, gamers in the house forever,

FuzzySlippers posted:

370 million to connect two distant cities? I think California has spent billions to try to connect a couple cities but still hasn't gotten anywhere. Seattle has spent like twelve billion to barely connect different parts of the city. It's gonna end up taking them twenty ish years to get it all done

the single biggest predictor of the cost of transit infrastructure per mile (even roads) is whether English is the primary language of the country it’s being built in

Mandoric
Mar 15, 2003

Fly Molo posted:

yeah checks out

By the end of the civil war, both tendencies were virulently anticommunist; it was a debate between autarkhy and an international crusade in accomplishing this. And of course the US played both sides, friendly at the very least with ranking officers like Sun Li-jen, the VMI-trained "Rommel of the East" who was the prime target of political controls on the RoC military, but also willing to overlook Ching-kuo's purge of him for alleged participation in a CIA-backed coup plot in 1955 as it was part of an overall crackdown on disloyalty.

Mandoric has issued a correction as of 21:23 on Mar 20, 2022

StashAugustine
Mar 24, 2013

Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

hobbesmaster posted:

If you’re condemning the French Revolution then surely you’d go one step further and blame American independence?

some of the super hardcore reactionaries do, but you also have to remember that they're not thinking in terms of materialistic cause and effect but of communism (and often to some degree liberalism) being some sort of bolt from the blue that drives the peasants crazy

StashAugustine
Mar 24, 2013

Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

my dad posted:

most notably, an Orthodox priest who started one of the first armed četnik resistance units, and scored a victory against a German garrison, brought over several hundred fighters to the Communists after being ordered by the Četnik command to fight the Communists instead of the Nazis.

hey good post as usual, just wanted to ask who this guy was

Tankbuster
Oct 1, 2021

Atrocious Joe posted:

they are trying to attack they crazy conservative from the right? isn't that why the liberals lost the election.
https://twitter.com/AskAKorean/status/1505180221711994881
https://twitter.com/AskAKorean/status/1505182229596721152

Fixing bad vibes is important.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011

https://mobile.twitter.com/phildstewart/status/1505621177963888646

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply