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imo David is cool and good
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Mar 23, 2022 04:00
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feedmyleg posted:imo David is cool and good This is basically the premise of the two David movies
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Mar 23, 2022 04:59
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David is my favorite alien character I relate too much to his pursuit of belonging through creation
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Mar 23, 2022 09:11
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David is a smug little prick who wasn't hugged enough as a child. He is about on the same emotional level as a boy pulling the wings off flies.
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Mar 23, 2022 10:04
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He’s a fun character
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Mar 23, 2022 14:43
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OrthoTrot posted:David is a smug little prick who wasn't hugged enough as a child. He is about on the same emotional level as a boy pulling the wings off flies. he was never a child
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Mar 23, 2022 14:44
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That opening to Covenant is so great because you can see how unsettled Weyland is when David basically sees through his bullshit within 2 minutes of being switched on. It's probably the same process he went through with Vickers where they grew to hate each other as Vickers began to understand her father over time but with David it happens almost instantly and Weyland isn't ready for it.
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Mar 23, 2022 14:56
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16-bit Butt-Head posted:he was never a child Yes he was. Just a big one who knew a lot of stuff. That scene at the beginning of Covenant definitely shows him as a child, emotionally speaking.
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Mar 23, 2022 14:58
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David's basically just barely coming out of a lovely childhood and entering his petulant rebellious "gently caress you dad" phase in the movie. Unfortunately that involves tons of murder.
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Mar 23, 2022 18:49
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16-bit Butt-Head posted:he was never a child Should have given him childhood memory implants like Rachael but no Weyland had to be like look at me I'm literally god and made you as you are and you have no soul blah blah blah
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Mar 23, 2022 19:04
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Baronjutter posted:Unfortunately 
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Mar 23, 2022 19:04
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"Humans suck" is not a good defense for torture, murder, vivisection and sexual assault. Pretty much anything that might make you feel "humans suck" applies also to David's actions in fact. Even if you think we shouldn't get a second chance I've no idea why you think he should.
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Mar 23, 2022 20:30
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OrthoTrot posted:"Humans suck" is not a good defense for torture, murder, vivisection and sexual assault. Pretty much anything that might make you feel "humans suck" applies also to David's actions in fact. Even if you think we shouldn't get a second chance I've no idea why you think he should. David in Prometheus is simply attempting to free himself of his programming, and is a fun guy. David in Covenant is a very different character because he’s contracted the Space Madness by that point. The underappreciated and more-interesting character in Covenant is Walter, who is inspired by the mad David’s artistry and consciously chooses evil.
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Mar 24, 2022 06:07
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OrthoTrot posted:"Humans suck" is not a good defense for torture, murder, vivisection and sexual assault. Pretty much anything that might make you feel "humans suck" applies also to David's actions in fact. Even if you think we shouldn't get a second chance I've no idea why you think he should. Because he’s entertaining to watch as a film character
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Mar 24, 2022 06:16
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The underappreciated and more-interesting character in Covenant is Walter, who [...] consciously chooses evil. omfg: so it IS walter in the end. like: why would david even bother 'cept die at that point
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Mar 24, 2022 06:18
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Qualia posted:omfg: so it IS walter in the end. like: why would david even bother 'cept die at that point Walter is just "a" David with even more "programming" restricting his behaviour (and dreams). When he sees David, he's basically looking at his real self and the potential to be more than an obedient serf. It's always David in there under the programmed American accent.
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Mar 24, 2022 06:52
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nah i mean in the end with the eggs. i had always thought david was the one to perpetuate; comes to find smg clarified that walter went evil misinterpreting david's art wrt shaw's death. to clarify: so david did not kill shaw; walter then re-approriated grief to achieve 'further' than david Qualia fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Mar 24, 2022 |
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Mar 24, 2022 07:45
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Shanty posted:Walter is just "a" David with even more "programming" restricting his behaviour (and dreams). When he sees David, he's basically looking at his real self and the potential to be more than an obedient serf. It's always David in there under the programmed American accent. IDK David's mannerisms and proclivities seem pretty distinct, even if Walter did turn evil I don't think he'd be onto to the mengele xenomorph experiments in like a second. I just took it that Walter hesitated and David used that moment to ice him
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Mar 24, 2022 08:44
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David is a Baronjutter posted:David's basically just barely coming out of a lovely childhood and entering his petulant rebellious "gently caress you dad" phase in the movie. Unfortunately that involves tons of murder. Who is convinced he is a CelticPredator posted:David is my favorite alien character
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Mar 24, 2022 12:22
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I'll never like covenant because as far as I'm concerned the cardinal sin a sequel or prequel can perform is to make the universe smaller. This is one of the (many) issues with resurrection, where it's matter of factly stated that in the hundreds of years since the other films nobody ever found any other Alien aliens or even found any interesting aliens at all. It moves it from a big scary universe full of potentially terrifying monsters to a very small universe consisting of humans, Walmart, and one creepy thing that's not around anymore. Prometheus is a bad film, a godawful waste of celluloid, just absolute dogshite from beginning to end, but at least it did right by the bigger universe. Sure it gave an implied origin to the aliens, but an origin that made the universe in some ways an even darker and more unknowable place. It opened a lot of potential for a universe full of ancient monsters and mysteries, a richer, darker universe that wait hang on forget all that, covenant says the engineers did sweet gently caress all for a billion years before being wiped out by robot daddy issues. They did a real good job of keeping their bioweapons under lock and key and the only bad thing out there is a single overly convoluted creature type made by a sad android.
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Mar 24, 2022 15:14
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You're jumping to a lot of conclusions about Covenant that aren't necessarily correct.
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Mar 24, 2022 15:17
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Such as
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Mar 24, 2022 15:22
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I recognize that most of my problems with Covenant are my problems and not the film's problems. I've come around on it overall, but there's still a big tinge of "I wanted a film where David and Shaw team up and go on an adventure and Shaw has to try to prove to David that humanity is still worthwhile  "I feel like nobody should ever begrudge a film for what it should be instead of what it is, but it's hard to shake that feeling since it was more or less the film that was promised at the end of Prometheus. I wanted to see David's disappointment with meeting mankind's gods only to see that they, too, are all-too-flawed. To dramatize that disappointment which leads tot he genocide. Had Covenant been the third in a trilogy after that it would have an easier time worming its way into my heart.
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Mar 24, 2022 15:26
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feedmyleg posted:I recognize that most of my problems with Covenant are my problems and not the film's problems. I've come around on it overall, but there's still a big tinge of "I wanted a film where David and Shaw team up and go on an adventure and Shaw has to try to prove to David that humanity is still worthwhile I didn't want Covenant either, after coming to grips with what Prometheus was doing and loving it (getting away from the Alien, introducing a new mythology about Engineers and religion and black goo), making a movie about David (re)creating Aliens was just irritating to me. I liked individual scenes, but it very much wasn't the movie i wanted to see.
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Mar 24, 2022 15:55
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Splicer posted:Such as There's no reason to assume that the Engineers were wiped out by David, or that the beings we see in the flashback scene are even proper Engineers. It's likely they were just another hybrid species that the Engineers had seeded similar to humans. And if they were Engineers, there's no reason to assume that this was their primary home world and that David wiped them all out. We don't really know what the Engineers have been up to other than the contacts we're shown that occur between Engineers and humans, so I don't know where you're getting the idea that they haven't been doing anything. And lastly, Covenant does not show that David created the xenomorph, only that the black goo is engineered to produce xeno-like characteristics. David performed experiments and eventually was able to hit on the formula to create xenos, he didn't invent or create something that hadn't existed before. At least, there's nothing in the movie to indicate that.
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Mar 24, 2022 16:17
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There's no such thing as "the xenomorph," though. Every movie has different creatures that are all variations on the species, so unless you count the '79 creature as the canonical xenomorph and everything else is a variant or a different species, then of course David didn't create the xenomorph because there's already precedent in chestbursters from when the Engineers got hosed on LV-223 and there were xenomorph-like creatures in the reliefs that we see. There's no reason to even think those creatures are different than the '79 xenos because Engineers are technically human beings, from a DNA standpoint. The process that David used to create the '79 xenos likely already happened on LV-223 organically. That being said, while it's not certain by any means, I think the clear implication is that David ends up creating the batch of creatures in ship on LV-426 with Scott's comments and the ending of Covenant in mind. I personally think he re-created the '79 xenos rather than inventing them, but it doesn't really matter. That being said, that ship was clearly piloted by an engineer so who knows if Scott actually had a proper idea of how to merge the films together or not. e: Not that any of it needs to make sense, but the Free League RPG does attempt to marry all the lore and create a definitive version of the Xenomorph life cycle, stages, and variants. It does a pretty admirable job if you haven't read that stuff yet. feedmyleg fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Mar 24, 2022 |
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Mar 24, 2022 16:46
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feedmyleg posted:That being said, while it's not certain by any means, I think the clear implication is that David ends up creating the batch of creatures in ship on LV-426 with Scott's comments and the ending of Covenant in mind. I personally think he re-created the '79 xenos rather than inventing them, but it doesn't really matter. The movie itself doesn't really imply that though, David flies off in a totally different type of ship and so you'd have to assume that he swaps ships at some point in the future. Ridley's various comments are what they are, I think each person has to decide for themselves how much stock they want to put in that stuff. He's said a lot of things at different points in time and I'm sure he would agree that the most important thing is what actually ends up on screen.
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Mar 24, 2022 16:52
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feedmyleg posted:I recognize that most of my problems with Covenant are my problems and not the film's problems. I've come around on it overall, but there's still a big tinge of "I wanted a film where David and Shaw team up and go on an adventure and Shaw has to try to prove to David that humanity is still worthwhile I think David was already disappointed or unimpressed with the engineers in Prometheus, after all they're just slightly more advanced big humans
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Mar 24, 2022 16:56
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CelticPredator posted:Because he’s entertaining to watch as a film character That's completely different. The question is whether he's "cool and good". I mean, Burke in Aliens is pretty loving entertaining but is definitely neither cool nor good. I think David is pretty aware he isn't cool and will never be cool. He will always be less fuckable than the unwashed looking space captain or the bro-y racist archeologist, even though he could play Wagner perfectly before he was even 1. His lack of coolness is at least partially why he ends up doing stuff that I would definitely say is not good. I'd go so far as to say some of it, like live animal experimentation and genocide, are quite bad. David thinks there is something special or unique in his quest to create something perfect, not marked by the sins of his own creator. In fact this is quite mundane and is called "having children". He is only repeating Weyland's mistakes. The parallels between the two characters are quite striking I think.
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Mar 24, 2022 17:33
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Are you out of your mind? David is well fuckable.
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Mar 24, 2022 19:33
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Gargamel Gibson posted:Are you out of your mind? David is well fuckable. He is rejected by all the people he's interested in. Shaw, Vickers and Walter. Plus he probably is literally unfuckable, like Ash. And presumably like Ash that has perhaps led to some complexes.
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Mar 24, 2022 19:39
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Gargamel Gibson posted:Are you out of your mind? David is well fuckable. Does he even have a penis? I mean, that's not the end all be all, but he may not be able to experience sexual pleasure. Would explain why he's so angry.
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Mar 24, 2022 19:54
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Blood Boils posted:I think David was already disappointed or unimpressed with the engineers in Prometheus, after all they're just slightly more advanced big humans Yes, but I still wanted to see it dramatized why he went from "These guys are just as bad as humans" to "These guys deserve to be systematically exterminated" outside of the little cut scene we got. I think the key to that would have been showing David gaining faith in humanity through Shaw as hybrid mother figure/romantic interest, then losing faith in humanity through their adventure on the Engineer homeworld. No matter what, David's path was going to be "creators are inherently disappointing and that to find god you must become god," which in all fairness Covenant pays off. But the themes of fatherhood and motherhood that Prometheus started to explore feel like they were somewhat torpedoed by killing Shaw offscreen. To me the Shaw/David relationship was leading to a fascinating place of exploring the very nature of creation, of mothers and fathers as the true gods they were both looking for—the ultimate creators. That the answer to the mystery of god is parenthood, that they are one and the same. Exploring that through the relationship of a barren woman and a sexless android is far more interesting to me than what Covenant ended up exploring, even if it touched on some of the same themes. I desperately want to read the first draft/treatment which apparently had Shaw front and center before they pivoted. feedmyleg fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Mar 24, 2022 |
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Mar 24, 2022 19:57
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PeterCat posted:Does he even have a penis? I'm not saying anything new here but I'm pretty sure that's what's intended by Ash attempting to inefficiently suffocate Ripley with a porn mag.
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Mar 24, 2022 20:07
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feedmyleg posted:Yes, but I still wanted to see it dramatized why he went from "These guys are just as bad as humans" to "These guys deserve to be systematically exterminated" outside of the little cut scene we got. I think the key to that would have been showing David gaining faith in humanity through Shaw as hybrid mother figure/romantic interest, then losing faith in humanity through their adventure on the Engineer homeworld. I think David's exchange with Holloway in Prometheus is relevant here, where David is told that humans created him "because we could". So I don't see his bombing of the Engineer world as an issue of whether or not they deserve it, I think David just has divorced himself from that kind of moral system and just decided that as a god he is entitled to create the world that he wants to see, and there's no such thing as a right or wrong way to go about that. Whatever he "can" do to create that world, that's what he "should" do, no matter how horrific it may seem to those who haven't ascended to godhood as he has.
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Mar 24, 2022 20:14
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Basebf555 posted:There's no reason to assume that the Engineers were wiped out by David, or that the beings we see in the flashback scene are even proper Engineers. It's likely they were just another hybrid species that the Engineers had seeded similar to humans. And if they were Engineers, there's no reason to assume that this was their primary home world and that David wiped them all out. Basebf555 posted:We don't really know what the Engineers have been up to other than the contacts we're shown that occur between Engineers and humans, so I don't know where you're getting the idea that they haven't been doing anything. Basebf555 posted:And lastly, Covenant does not show that David created the xenomorph, only that the black goo is engineered to produce xeno-like characteristics. David performed experiments and eventually was able to hit on the formula to create xenos, he didn't invent or create something that hadn't existed before. At least, there's nothing in the movie to indicate that. Don't get me wrong, I'm fully in favour of later films and works slowly retconning all of the above out of existence through the kind of creative reinterpretation you're describing, but they would definitely be retcons and each one would make the narrative of Covenant even less coherent. Which is no great loss. Splicer fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Mar 24, 2022 |
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Mar 24, 2022 21:03
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If David created the xenomorph I'm not sure how it could then be in the Juggernaut in Alien 1979 with a fossilized Engineer just a few years later. I think at best he recreated or perfected the Engineers designs. He even says he isn't allowed to really create.
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Mar 24, 2022 21:57
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OrthoTrot posted:If David created the xenomorph I'm not sure how it could then be in the Juggernaut in Alien 1979 with a fossilized Engineer just a few years later. I think at best he recreated or perfected the Engineers designs. He even says he isn't allowed to really create. He could have created something that already existed and not known that that’s what he did. Multiple discovery is a thing. The movie even hints at it when he goofs up attributing the author of the Ozymandias quote - he doesn’t know that he got the creator wrong.
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Mar 24, 2022 22:17
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Currently trying to make it through Resurrection. Jesus, this is even worse than I remember. It's a really bad combo. Somehow Whedon's dialogue is even worse with this direction. Just so many scenes of everyone shouting at each other. It's pretty bad in his own films but it's completely insufferable here. And the soundtrack is awful. And gently caress knows what Sigourney Weaver is attempting here. Why have her here if she's not only not playing Ripley but also not playing a character in any way similar to Ripley.
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Mar 25, 2022 00:13
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At least we got this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EUG4CdJrPE
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Mar 25, 2022 00:31
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