|
Re: whether or not Russia or Ukraine is "winning" overall, it would seem that even if Russia meets its military objectives in Ukraine that it will be in a significantly worse strategic position than it was when it started the war. To me that seems like it's not only an "own goal" it's kicking the ball into your own goal then shooting the goalie in the head. Case in point: the majority of Finns want to join NATO, up from 34% in 2021. https://www.businessinsider.com/finland-majority-support-joining-nato-after-russia-invades-ukraine-survey-2022-3 Edit: shameful page snipe, have a pic of one of my dogs giving me serious side eye 
pantslesswithwolves fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Mar 23, 2022 |
#
?
Mar 23, 2022 22:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 06:52 |
|
|
Cimber posted:When was the last time in modern history that an aggressor actually won their war of aggression? Less than two years ago when Armenia got their poo poo kicked.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2022 22:23
|
|
|
pantslesswithwolves posted:Re: whether or not Russia or Ukraine is "winning" overall, it would seem that even if Russia meets its military objectives in Ukraine that it will be in a significantly worse strategic position than it was when it started the war. To me that seems like it's not only an "own goal" it's kicking the ball into your own goal then shooting the goalie in the head. Yeah, again: If Putin's goal was to protect himself from NATO expansion: That's failed entirely. If his goal was to rebuild the Russian empire through a land grab: that's not happening anymore. If his goal was to demonstrate lack of resolve on the Wests part: Also failed. Both militarily and geopolitically, this entire thing is a bust for Russia and is going to set them back at least a decade or more.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2022 22:33
|
|
|
pantslesswithwolves posted:Re: whether or not Russia or Ukraine is "winning" overall, it would seem that even if Russia meets its military objectives in Ukraine that it will be in a significantly worse strategic position than it was when it started the war. To me that seems like it's not only an "own goal" it's kicking the ball into your own goal then shooting the goalie in the head. I made a helpful explainer/visual aid of the situation 
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2022 22:35
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Yeah, again: If Putin's goal was to protect himself from NATO expansion: That's failed entirely. If his goal was to rebuild the Russian empire through a land grab: that's not happening anymore. If his goal was to demonstrate lack of resolve on the Wests part: Also failed. Eh, gently caress Putin. The line of bullshit about NATO is just that; a line of bullshit lies that shouldn't even exist as a talking point but, welp, propaganda works and it forces everyone to talk about it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2022 22:35
|
|
|
Comrade Blyatlov posted:I made a helpful explainer/visual aid of the situation will you settle for your dog chewing your hand off
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2022 22:38
|
|
|
bird food bathtub posted:Eh, gently caress Putin. The line of bullshit about NATO is just that; a line of bullshit lies that shouldn't even exist as a talking point but, welp, propaganda works and it forces everyone to talk about it. Trying to point out that if his invasion had succeeded, Russia would have a lot MORE of a border with NATO countries, in a far less tenable defensive position to people who actually think russia has a legitimate security concern is like watching an egg thrown at a brick wall.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2022 22:38
|
|
|
Comrade Blyatlov posted:When you think about it atoms are involved in every disaster makes you think
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2022 22:38
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Yeah, again: If Putin's goal was to protect himself from NATO expansion: That's failed entirely. I still don't 100% follow the line that NATO expansion is an existential threat to Russian except where it foils Russian imperialistic ambitions. Which, yes, if that's all it is then I can understand the perspective, but I'm certainly seeing certain groups (like internet leftists) suggesting that there's more to it than that. Is there a belief that post-Soviet nations joining with NATO would be the precursor to an invasion and destruction of Russia?
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2022 22:41
|
|
|
Comrade Blyatlov posted:When you think about it atoms are involved in every disaster No atoms are necessary for a universe ending vacuum disaster.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2022 22:50
|
|
|
Tiny Timbs posted:I still don't 100% follow the line that NATO expansion is an existential threat to Russian except where it foils Russian imperialistic ambitions. Which, yes, if that's all it is then I can understand the perspective, but I'm certainly seeing certain groups (like internet leftists) suggesting that there's more to it than that. Is there a belief that post-Soviet nations joining with NATO would be the precursor to an invasion and destruction of Russia? That's basically the myth Russia is pushing, yes. Deteriorata posted:A video from the NYT with intercepted Russian communications around the initial invasion of Makariv. This video is particularly haunting, NY Times video going over the radio intercepts.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2022 22:52
|
|
|
Everything I know about atoms I learned from The Simpsons. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqgvHUg_vxY I am not a smart man.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2022 22:54
|
|
|
The amount of credible, verifiable information available in near-realtime about this war is unprecedented. I've never seen anything like this. I can't imagine that this kind of info was available to military commanders until the latter half of the 20th century. Perhaps even later than that.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2022 23:08
|
|
A.o.D. posted:The amount of credible, verifiable information available in near-realtime about this war is unprecedented. I've never seen anything like this. I can't imagine that this kind of info was available to military commanders until the latter half of the 20th century. Perhaps even later than that. Can't wait for the 323rd Strategic Disinformation K-Pop unit to be deployed in the future.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2022 23:22
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:That's basically the myth Russia is pushing, yes. It’s too bad they can’t see that everyone else views a takeover of Russia the same way South Korea views reunification.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2022 23:26
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:This video is particularly haunting, NY Times video going over the radio intercepts. Some drat good journalism.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2022 23:26
|
|
|
Wasabi the J posted:
lmao what 
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2022 23:47
|
|
|
He does the upside down american flag thing with his curious George hat patch to indicate the video is a satire bit, stuff like that, his shirts with have tattooed/lgbt elsa or anna from frozen frequently when he's making a video about not limiting yourself to other's views of you stuff like that. If he's making a video about doing what you can to help out any situation he wears a rule 303 shirt
Stravag fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Mar 24, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2022 23:59
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/oryxspioenkop/status/1506767202707554312?s=21 Seriously they seem to suck at a level similar to the Invasion of Finland.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2022 00:03
|
|
|
Tiny Timbs posted:It’s too bad they can’t see that everyone else views a takeover of Russia the same way South Korea views reunification. Inevitable but the next administrations problem?
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2022 00:03
|
|
|
Isn't that fifth column poo poo affiliated with Assange? Or was that just the name of the lovely movie about him? Either way, my youtube feed is for car crashes, brit panel shows and taskmaster. There's enough propaganda going around from all sides, I don't need it recommended to me as every 5th video on youtube.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2022 00:09
|
|
|
That Works posted:Can't wait for the 323rd Strategic Disinformation K-Pop unit to be deployed in the future. I kind of get the impression that basically already exists, and that it has been crowdsourced.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2022 00:10
|
|
|
CainFortea posted:Trying to point out that if his invasion had succeeded, Russia would have a lot MORE of a border with NATO countries, in a far less tenable defensive position to people who actually think russia has a legitimate security concern is like watching an egg thrown at a brick wall. It's possible that it's less about the border and more about Ukraine itself. If Ukraine is supposed to be part of the broader Russian sphere of influence, having it join NATO is pretty concretely leaving the club.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2022 00:11
|
|
|
Experience has taught me not to listen to loud beardy guys.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2022 00:11
|
|
|
CainFortea posted:Trying to point out that if his invasion had succeeded, Russia would have a lot MORE of a border with NATO countries, in a far less tenable defensive position to people who actually think russia has a legitimate security concern is like watching an egg thrown at a brick wall. Russia doesn't want to absorb Ukraine. They want an empire of expendable "not us" countries to buffer them. Basically, take Russia's "lure them in and kill them in the winter and spring mud" defense strategy except that it happens in Ukraine or Belarus instead of actual Russia. e: Speaking of historical precedent, is there any other example beyond Russia/USSR of an empire not just expanding to extract resources from colonial areas but to use them as "fight them there not here" buffers? Stultus Maximus fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Mar 24, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2022 00:13
|
|
|
Casimir Radon posted:Experience has taught me not to listen to loud beardy guys. I find this one in particular most frank and reliable when he's talking about those he views as his opposition. When he's talking about his own side there's some garbage in his content.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2022 00:14
|
|
|
Voyager I posted:It's possible that it's less about the border and more about Ukraine itself. If Ukraine is supposed to be part of the broader Russian sphere of influence, having it join NATO is pretty concretely leaving the club. Yes, that's what the point of my post was. It has nothing to do with NATO, and if NATO had imploded last year and ceased to exist russia would still have invaded Ukraine because Ukraine "isn't a real country and is actually russia". My post was that the claim that Russia has an honest security interest in keeping NATO away is blatantly false given every action they've taken since 2008.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2022 00:16
|
|
|
Stultus Maximus posted:e: Speaking of historical precedent, is there any other example beyond Russia/USSR of an empire not just expanding to extract resources from colonial areas but to use them as "fight them there not here" buffers? Afghanistan (British Empire having a go inbetween Russia's attempts to absorb it as a client state). Technically the attempt wasn't a total failure.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2022 00:27
|
|
|
Alchenar posted:Afghanistan (British Empire having a go inbetween Russia's attempts to absorb it as a client state). I have it on good authority from one H. Flashman that it was a right cock up, though.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2022 00:31
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:That's basically the myth Russia is pushing, yes. Whoever has callsign Buran really does sound close to tears at one point.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2022 00:31
|
|
|
CRUSTY MINGE posted:Isn't that fifth column poo poo affiliated with Assange? Or was that just the name of the lovely movie about him? fifth column is a really broad term afaik, there's no affiliation to anything in particular.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2022 00:37
|
|
|
Radical 90s Wizard posted:fifth column is a really broad term afaik, there's no affiliation to anything in particular. Most importantly they were the resistance in V
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2022 00:56
|
|
|
Ezra Klein did a good podcast on Russia and the state of the global energy markets that's worth checking out. In particular interviewed economic historian Daniel Yergin who talks about the impact of the shale revolution and the huge shift in thinking about European energy dependence. Decarbonization as a national security measure can be a powerful argument that can open a lot of doors. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/22/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-daniel-yergin.html https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-ezra-klein-show/id1548604447?i=1000554830246 Kaal fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Mar 24, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2022 01:13
|
|
|
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_column#Origin
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2022 01:25
|
|
|
CainFortea posted:Yes, that's what the point of my post was. It has nothing to do with NATO, and if NATO had imploded last year and ceased to exist russia would still have invaded Ukraine because Ukraine "isn't a real country and is actually russia". You're missing the point of what I'm saying. Ukraine giving consideration to joining NATO is a point of crisis from the perspective of a Russian who considers it part of their domain, because once it becomes a NATO member it's completely untouchable. If NATO doesn't exist there isn't a way for Ukraine to escape Russia's grasp with such solidity.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2022 01:54
|
|
|
Voyager I posted:You're missing the point of what I'm saying. Ukraine giving consideration to joining NATO is a point of crisis from the perspective of a Russian who considers it part of their domain, because once it becomes a NATO member it's completely untouchable. They weren't contemplating joining NATO before Russia started getting grabby. Which is my point. Russia generated the whole "NATO Crisis"
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2022 02:00
|
|
|
CainFortea posted:They weren't contemplating joining NATO before Russia started getting grabby. Which is my point. Russia generated the whole "NATO Crisis" Also, NATO certainly wasn't giving any indication they supported Ukraine's admission. The opposite, in fact. The crisis was both manufactured and already dealt with by Russia inciting a perpetual conflict on its eastern border.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2022 02:04
|
|
|
Tiny Timbs posted:Also, NATO certainly wasn't giving any indication they supported Ukraine's admission. The opposite, in fact. The crisis was both manufactured and already dealt with by Russia inciting a perpetual conflict on its eastern border. Which seems to be a Russian strategy: Create a border crisis through a small operation, and voila! No NATO membership. Ukraine was the first one to get the "Full takeover attempt"
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2022 02:36
|
|
|
Marshal Prolapse posted:Part of it is that Russia has around 250,000 Jews still living there. This isn’t meant to justify, but possibly explain the Israeli logic, a bit more. For the record Ukraine has a similar number of Jews living in the country and being murdered by the Russians. More that Israel has over a million ex-Soviet Jews who have varying degrees of support for Putin. This was a recent Netanyahu campaign poster, for example. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2022 03:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 06:52 |
|
|
Stultus Maximus posted:e: Speaking of historical precedent, is there any other example beyond Russia/USSR of an empire not just expanding to extract resources from colonial areas but to use them as "fight them there not here" buffers? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_(territory) The concept has existed for a while. Border regions with less/non-existant taxation combined with higher rates of conscription (plus the implication that fighting will likelier-than-not take place in that particular region). As an aside, this term is the origin of the noble ranks of Marquess/Marquis/Markgraf DJ_Mindboggler fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Mar 24, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2022 03:23
|
|
