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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:no argument here, I'm just having a hard time putting it higher on the ol' genocideometer than 'these vermin are a plague risk and as such must be purged from our borders, by men on horseback with whips if necessary,' which I have been assured rather than genocide is just a Pragmatic Compromise To Get Things Done. The problem is Russia has a long and storied history in is post-USSR engagements, especially under Putin, of conducting ethnic cleansing including brutality and murder. Serbia, Georgia, Chechnya, to name a few. This operation largely is not different in that regard and they've already done some outright sketchy poo poo like force refugees to only seek refuge in Russia, kidnapping people and disappearing others. This is not a new song and dance in Ukraine.
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Mar 24, 2022 21:22
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:no argument here, I'm just having a hard time putting it higher on the ol' genocideometer than 'these vermin are a plague risk and as such must be purged from our borders, by men on horseback with whips if necessary,' which I have been assured rather than genocide is just a Pragmatic Compromise To Get Things Done. See, I have a hard time believing the people who tell me that sanctions causing famine in Afghanistan are good and necessary but also they want to stop genocide around the world. I believe Russia is committing one. I believe America wants to attack Russia and protect Ukraine. I just don't believe that America wants to stop Russia in Ukraine because they want to stop all genocide. If you think the US is an ally because you think you both want to stop genocide you should investigate that and see if they're really an ally in that fight or if they're lying about motives to get the sympathy of good people.
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Mar 24, 2022 21:24
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CommieGIR posted:Not the thread to discuss Azov or Ukraine, thanks For the love of god stop entertaining and facilitating the derail you said was supposed to stop.
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Mar 24, 2022 21:25
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it raises a question that I genuinely don't know the answer to: is it, in fact, an attack on Ukranian identity to say Bandera was not a hero, but a monster? there's a pat way to say yes, because it is a fact, he was one of the most prominent fighters for ukranian independence, and a pat way to say no, because his proud alliance with the Nazis is also a fact. is there a way to say he is not a figure to venerate that does not constitute erasing Ukranian culture? thorny rear end question with a lot of unpleasant possible answers.
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Mar 24, 2022 21:27
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Discendo Vox posted:For the love of god stop entertaining and facilitating the derail you said was supposed to stop. Fair point. I stand corrected, lets try to get back on US CE. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Mar 24, 2022 |
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Mar 24, 2022 21:28
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:it raises a question that I genuinely don't know the answer to: is it, in fact, an attack on Ukranian identity to say Bandera was not a hero, but a monster? No, but saying that Ukrainian identity is fake and you are taking back your land from "Ukraine" and killing those who believe in the false consciousness definitely is.
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Mar 24, 2022 21:30
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:No, but saying that Ukrainian identity is fake and you are taking back your land from "Ukraine" and killing those who believe in the false consciousness definitely is. sorry for the continuation, I'll gladly let it go after this, but this is one of those things that ABSOLUTELY needs clarification for fear of misinterpretation That's a no to the first question I asked, and not the second, right
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Mar 24, 2022 21:34
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    https://twitter.com/carolrosenberg/status/1507081975470956548?s=20&t=3y6nktXyKk3LEa0wNmymwA
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Mar 24, 2022 21:43
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Because when you are measuring outlays and payments and include transfers for education and health, then you are factoring in taxes and monetary transfers. The Canadian data is calculated by bank account info. Going by bank account data for America, it is at best equal to that in Canada in terms of the amount of Americans that can afford emergency payments.
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Mar 24, 2022 21:47
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punk rebel ecks posted:The Canadian data is calculated by bank account info. Digging into the PPP analysis, it looks like the biggest differences between the U.S. and E.U. are: - The median U.K. (for a pretty close comparison to the U.S.) household only earns about 72% of the median U.S. household's gross income and the median E.U. household earns about half the median U.S. (some of the E.U. countries are pretty poor and drag down the ratio). - The median U.S. household pays much less in taxes (the average E.U. personal income tax rate for the median citizen is about double the personal income tax rate in the U.S. and the E.U. has an average VAT/National Sales tax rate of 21%) - Much more people in the U.S. live in rural or suburban areas with lower cost of living than the E.U. It is not uncommon for 16% to 20% of a nation's population to live in a single urban metro area with high cost of living in the E.U. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Mar 24, 2022 |
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Mar 24, 2022 22:35
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https://twitter.com/vote4robgill/status/1506666976344784900?s=20&t=3NoAEoEDzzMTkc8LZQAGTg First of all: Guillotine Second: Seems really short-sighted. You can squeeze employees more, but with people having less disposable income, they're going to eat your second rate junk less.
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Mar 24, 2022 23:02
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Gumball Gumption posted:Or the ones our allies currently commit or the ones we are currently committing unless choosing to restrict access to food to intentionally starve and kill a group of people is no longer considered a genocide. Are you saying that sanctions on Russia are set up to intentionally starve and kill a group of people? DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Mar 24, 2022 |
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Mar 24, 2022 23:05
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Are you saying that sanctions on Russia are set up to intentionally starve and kill a group of people? That's what broad sanctions do? If you tank a country's economy it's not oligarchs who go hungry Pretty sure he meant Afghanistan though e: he did some plague rats fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Mar 24, 2022 |
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Mar 24, 2022 23:06
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Are you saying that sanctions on Russia are set up to intentionally starve and kill a group of people? Afghanistan. Beats me if it's intentional or not but it's not a good thing if we're stumbling rear end backwards into a genocide. Edit: mind you this is also after a long war that killed civilians and displaced people and was all in the bigger point that the US does not care about genocide and those who commit it and if they're telling you their motive is "We need to stop this genocide" they're lying to you. The US government wants to stop Russia, you personally want to stop Russia. If you want to stop them because they're committing genocide than the US government and you have the same goal but different motives. Double edit: since this is D&D and I did say intentional and we're very particular about language here: I do not know if we're intentionally starving Afghanistan to commit a cold hearted racially based genocide. I do know that our sanctions are leading to starvation after years of killing civilians and destroying the country. If it's not a genocide than it's only because we were too disorganized to officially write a memo about how we needed to destroy Afghanistan and the Afghani people. The outcome looks the same. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Mar 24, 2022 |
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Mar 24, 2022 23:07
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:sorry for the continuation, I'll gladly let it go after this, but this is one of those things that ABSOLUTELY needs clarification for fear of misinterpretation To add onto Leon's statement, speaking as a Ukrainian-born Jewish American (and speaking mostly for myself, not for Ukrainains as a whole): I don't think it's an outright attack on Ukrainian identity to declare Bandera a monster. I, for example, agree with that statement (anecdotal sample of one, but still!) Among Ukrainians, saying so will get you raised voices from the more blatantly nationalist folks, but also a healthy amount of full-throated agreement. At the very least people, especially those who don't give too much thought about politics/history, will have mixed feelings acknowledging the horrors he abetted in the name of Ukrainian independence. Too soft on Bandera, in my opinion, but there you go. I risk speaking out of turn here (and I absolutely can stand to be better-read, so anyone feel free to correct me), but my feeling is that you'll likely find something similar when condemning controversial national figures in other groups e.g. Slobodan Milošević for Serbia, Genghis Khan for Mongolia, Hirohito for Japan, or even, say, Andrew Jackson here in America. It's an intra-cultural dialogue that, by all means can have input from third parties, especially from groups who were affected by these figures, I think. In any culture with controversial (putting it lightly!!!) figures, you will have folks one one side condemning them for dishonoring their people with horrific acts in their name, and folks on the other side being full-on apologists caught up in a zero-sum "us-or-them" mentality. Plus, as always, you'll have folks who will (wrongfully or otherwise) have mixed/unexamined/uninformed feelings on the matter. Ukrainian culture encompasses more than just its sovereign nation-state and its figures. Things like common language, common practices, common food, common history—it's an ever-evolving body—filled with virtues and vices, hypocrisies and idiosyncrasies, hopes and fears like any large cultural group. To use an example, I and my family, condemn Putin and the actions of his supporters, but refuse to condemn Russians and Russian culture as a whole. Those instances you see here in America of Russian-American business getting targeted for harassment, for example, are a disgusting outburst. What's personally terrifying about the war in Ukraine is Putin's public rhetoric of wiping away Ukrainian identity outright as a geopolitical fluke (to say nothing of divergent languages, world outlooks, cultural practices, etc.) Bandera is a monster who carried out crimes in the name of a sovereign Ukraine, yes, but the infamous legacy of one man and his supporters shouldn't mean the eradication of an entire culture. Even if every Ukrainian in the world, regardless of political leaning, woke up tomorrow, jumped on social media, and typed a 500-word essay condemning Bandera, I have a distinct feeling it would not deter the current war one inch. How can I and my family, as Ukrainians, make up for the horrors of the past and push for a brighter future for myself and others like me if I'm not around to do so? How can Ukraine push on and make inroads with other peoples in spite of its history, if it is not allowed to so? Why must I, or any other Ukrainian, renounce our background outright, if the figures being used to justify that renouncement are not intrinsic to our identities?
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Mar 24, 2022 23:09
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Gumball Gumption posted:Afghanistan. Beats me if it's intentional or not but it's not a good thing if we're stumbling rear end backwards into a genocide. You literally argued it's intentional. some plague rats posted:That's what broad sanctions do? If you tank a country's economy it's not oligarchs who go hungry It strikes me as pretty wild to assume there's a mustache twirling conspiracy to starve people or commit genocide with sanctions when there's a far simpler explanation: it's a method to put pressure on governments doing something that the country imposing the sanctions doesn't like. The civilian population being hurt is not the purpose, and I don't think is even desired except as it puts pressure on the government. Painting it the way you have is like an apartheid apologist arguing that sanctions on South Africa were imposed to starve people. Edit: maybe I'm splitting a hair here, but arguing that sanctions are imposed to intentionally kill people or commit genocide seems like an incredibly hyperbolic thing to say DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Mar 24, 2022 |
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Mar 24, 2022 23:17
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Willa Rogers posted:I meant liberals who say that single-payer will never ever happen bc those guys over there don't want people of color to get it, when liberals themselves are the emperors of means-testing and other gate-keeping that ends up hurting people of color. (See KFF charts above about who's impacted the most when it comes to medical costs.) Historically it's true. I'm not a liberal, but I am saying that single payer is hard to get passed because the white people over here(ie democrats and the liberals) also don't want people of color to get it.
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Mar 24, 2022 23:22
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Oxyclean posted:Second: Seems really short-sighted. You can squeeze employees more, but with people having less disposable income, they're going to eat your second rate junk less. Executives only work short sighted. You're likely going to have moved in within 3 years so this quarter is all that matters.
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Mar 24, 2022 23:23
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DeadlyMuffin posted:It strikes me as pretty wild to assume there's a mustache twirling conspiracy to starve people or commit genocide with sanctions people. This would be a pretty wild assumption that no one apart from you seems to be making? Sure, the point of sanctions is to put pressure on the government, but starving the people who actually live there is the inevitable effect and sanctions have been shown time and again to be completely ineffective at actually pressuring their leaders
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Mar 24, 2022 23:26
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DeadlyMuffin posted:You literally argued it's intentional. Sanctions have different purposes and target different things. Saying all sanctions target X is like saying all taxes hurt poor people. Some sanctions the U.S. put on Iran in the 80's, early 2000's, and 2018 were absolutely specifically part of a regime change policy and designed to cause mass economic hardship. So far, the U.S. has sanctioned 417 individuals, seized boats, prevented the Russian military bank from making currency trades with American accounts, prevented certain advanced targeting computers for missiles from being exported to Russia, and removed Russia from its "Most Favored Nation" trade agreement list that gave it preferential tariff and tax rates under a free trade deal. None of those are going to cause mass starvation, mass economic pain, or regime change. They might go further and eventually implement sanctions that intend to do that, but they aren't as of now. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Mar 24, 2022 |
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Mar 24, 2022 23:26
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DeadlyMuffin posted:You literally argued it's intentional. I mean there was also the war. And Israel is an ally of the US and actively committing genocide. And at no point have you really touched on the argument these were in support of. So yeah, you're doing that technically correct splitting hairs thing. There is no mustache twirling conspiracy there is just a lot of genocide committed by every super power on this planet.
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Mar 24, 2022 23:27
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After doing more research disposable income is merely income minus current taxes. This is what the ranking chart linked prior shows. Discretionary income is what is measured when accounting for all payments and bills such as medical bills, mortgages, childcare, etc. Wikipedia with Source posted:Disposable income is total personal income minus current income taxes.In national accounts definitions, personal income minus personal current taxes equals disposable personal income. Wikipedia with Source posted:Discretionary income is disposable income (after-tax income), minus all payments that are necessary to meet current bills. It is total personal income after subtracting taxes and minimal survival expenses (such as food, medicine, rent or mortgage, utilities, insurance, transportation, property maintenance, child support, etc.) to maintain a certain standard of living.It is the amount of an individual’s income available for spending after the essentials have been taken care of:
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Mar 24, 2022 23:34
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^^^ lol, ofc.Jaxyon posted:Historically it's true. lol, no; it's because the "stakeholders" in the industries who would stand to lose have made their views (and correlating dollars) known, and because politicians & corporate media have echoed the industries' propaganda (including how those others will oppose it bc those other others will benefit by it). Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Mar 24, 2022 |
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Mar 24, 2022 23:41
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This may be Eric Adams' weirdest and dumbest move yet. A vaccine mandate exemption for celebrities and athletes. https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1507115038473166850
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Mar 24, 2022 23:42
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Willa Rogers posted:^^^ lol, ofc. It's both of those things. Never underestimate the racism of white people as part of US politics.
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Mar 24, 2022 23:45
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:This may be Eric Adams' weirdest and dumbest move yet. So at this point anti-vaxxers have pretty much won because the economy needs to be open again. It's so Kyrie Irving can play home games.
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Mar 24, 2022 23:45
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:This may be Eric Adams' weirdest and dumbest move yet. The Reuters story makes it seem as if police officers are the only ones left under a vaccine mandate in the city; is that correct?
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Mar 24, 2022 23:46
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some plague rats posted:This would be a pretty wild assumption that no one apart from you seems to be making? In light of Madeleine Albright dying I think it's good to remember that in the past she fully acknowledged that sanctions on Iraq killed hundreds of thousands and said it was worth it.
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Mar 24, 2022 23:47
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^^^ "We starved some folks."Jaxyon posted:It's both of those things. Never underestimate the racism of white people as part of US politics. I'll try to not do that (nor have I done that). But as someone who has tracked healthcare in this country & its political trajectory over the last four decades I can emphatically state that one of these things is the greater (and greatest) cause of single-payer derailment.
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Mar 24, 2022 23:48
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Willa Rogers posted:The Reuters story makes it seem as if police officers are the only ones left under a vaccine mandate in the city; is that correct? He ended the mandate for most public places, but it is still in effect for most private employers that have employees who interact in-person with the public. This exemption is for athletes and celebrities under the employment mandate. quote:Workers in New York City who perform in-person work or interact with the public in the course of business must show proof that they have received a COVID-19 vaccine. https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-vaccine-workplace-requirement.page
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Mar 24, 2022 23:51
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Willa Rogers posted:^^^ "We starved some folks." I never said you did, nor did I say that it was the greater of the two causes. Your earlier post made it sound like "ventriloquism" was completely unfounded, and I'm saying it's not. It sounds as if we mostly agree.
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Mar 24, 2022 23:52
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I thought I made it clear that when I was talking about liberals channeling conservatives that single-payer will never ever happen bc of those people I meant that liberals were hiding behind it as a (well-worn) cliche to not examine their own biases about who deserves free healthcare (currently, around $19k/max for medicaid & 65 years+ for medicare). If not, consider it clarified & let's move on.
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Mar 24, 2022 23:58
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some plague rats posted:This would be a pretty wild assumption that no one apart from you seems to be making? They could have gone directly after the banking to hurt the oligarchs and Putin as directly as possible. Hunting down and freezing the funds. Maybe even seizing them. Ramping it up as a response to the invasion of Crimea. My guess is this wasn't done because it could hurt the banks and businesses the oligarchs were invested in. I am not saying this would not hurt the Russian people but it seems like the most direct option.
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Mar 25, 2022 00:08
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Cranappleberry posted:They could have gone directly after the banking to hurt the oligarchs and Putin as directly as possible. They did. VTB bank and the Russian military accounts were the second thing they sanctioned.
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Mar 25, 2022 00:10
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:This may be Eric Adams' weirdest and dumbest move yet. But yeah, it's very, very, very stupid. Similar to how you see airlines turning the screws on Biden, it really is the most stark example of the power of capital to decide policy.
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Mar 25, 2022 00:16
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Srice posted:In light of Madeleine Albright dying I think it's good to remember that in the past she fully acknowledged that sanctions on Iraq killed hundreds of thousands and said it was worth it. I honestly think to the average American the difference really is that she said it was a hard choice but worth it. If she had said "gently caress them kids" we would know it was a genocide but we just can't see into her heart so we need to give her the benefit of the doubt.
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Mar 25, 2022 00:16
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:They did. I mean all of it for all of them. In Western banks and threaten to not do business with banks in tax havens/where secret banking is done.
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Mar 25, 2022 00:23
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Timeless Appeal posted:But yeah, it's very, very, very stupid. Similar to how you see airlines turning the screws on Biden, it really is the most stark example of the power of capital to decide policy. Adams is so intensely devoted to business while at the same time being just a complete fuckin weirdo, there is no way this guy doesn't end up President and there's a good chance he's the one we abolish the 22nd Amendment for. President Adams windsurfing through the ruins of Miami to raise money for his VP's kidney operation.
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Mar 25, 2022 00:23
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Madeleine Albright's greatest achievement was indirectly creating K-Pop (Kosovo Pop). https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/1507135328921993219
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Mar 25, 2022 00:26
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Gumball Gumption posted:I honestly think to the average American the difference really is that she said it was a hard choice but worth it. If she had said "gently caress them kids" we would know it was a genocide but we just can't see into her heart so we need to give her the benefit of the doubt. Yeah absolutely. A lot of people (and very importantly, a lot of the media) really buy into the narrative of tough people making tough decisions.
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Mar 25, 2022 00:29
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