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selec posted:I get being scared of change, or just saying “well it’s not actually a democracy but it’s as close as we’ll ever get” but I couldn’t bring myself to accept that level of humiliation. How much of the government do we have to accept as illegitimate before the whole enterprise can be thrown out? Why bother with laws when they obviously don’t apply to the rich and famous, Eric? 1. Transitioning from one government/constitution to another is not easy and would produce massive amounts of hardship (if not an outright war), most of which would fall on the most vulnerable 2. Even if you somehow succeed in "throwing out the whole enterprise" you are still in a country where the majority of the people would support things you dislike, because your political views are pretty fringe (not using "fringe" as a pejorative here). If we're transitioning to a "true Democracy" then you have to accept that people are still going to demand (e.g.) low taxes, harsh immigration policies, strong police powers etc. We would undoubtedly continue to have a capitalist/free market system for most goods. People would still want their property to be valuable, and about two thirds of voters own property. You seem to think that "a real democracy" means "the things I want will happen," ignoring the fact that vast majorities of Americans don't necessarily want the things you do.
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Mar 25, 2022 17:45
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BiggerBoat posted:Well, that's pretty much everybody at least in my experience. Makes for a lovely bumper sticker though. Oh for sure. Messaging needs a lot of work, marketing needs a lot of work, candidates need a lot of work, leadership needs a lot of work. It's an ugly big-tent party full of a mix of awful people and good people. Unfortunately it is also the party that believes in democracy as a system of government, here in the year 2022. The other side have fully embraced fascism and single-party single-race rule. If we want a chance to either reform the Democratic party or to build some sort of new social justice - environmental justice based party over the next few decades then we necessarily *must* keep the Republicans out of power throughout the 2020s, at the least. It sucks, but that's the situation we're in.
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Mar 25, 2022 17:45
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:Is this not something Biden could resolve with an EO? As far as federal legalization of marijuana, he most likely cannot. It needs to be done via legislation:https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/LSB/LSB10655 quote:If the President sought to act in the area of controlled substances regulation, he would likely do so by executive order. However, the Supreme Court has held that the President has the power to issue an executive order only if authorized by “an act of Congress or . . . the Constitution itself.” The CSA does not provide a direct role for the President in the classification of controlled substances, nor does Article II of the Constitution grant the President power in this area (federal controlled substances law is an exercise of Congress’s power to regulate interstate commerce). Thus, it does not appear that the President could directly deschedule or reschedule marijuana by executive order.
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Mar 25, 2022 17:49
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Mellow Seas posted:"Throwing out the whole enterprise" has a couple of problems. Smaller problem first: None of this goes to supporting the legitimacy of what we currently have though; if I’m reading this right you’re just addressing that change is hard (agree) and would be violent (agree; the rich won’t go quietly) and that maybe people want different things. How does any of this affirm or undermine the legitimacy of the current situation?
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Mar 25, 2022 17:58
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Mellow Seas posted:"Throwing out the whole enterprise" has a couple of problems. Smaller problem first: Haven't a bunch of liberal-leaning people in this thread argued that the mass hardship and death caused by sanctions is worth it for regime change? How come its okay for other countries but not us?
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Mar 25, 2022 18:01
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As long as the suffering of the underclass isn't the intent, it should be fine.
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Mar 25, 2022 18:04
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Bishyaler posted:Haven't a bunch of liberal-leaning people in this thread argued that the mass hardship and death caused by sanctions is worth it for regime change? How come its okay for other countries but not us? I'm imagining the world where the US was sanctioned to explicitly force regime change after Bush illegally seized power and then manufactured evidence to attack Iraq to sooth his ego and restore his name after Saddam embarrassed his father all while Americans demanded blood for justice from 9/11. But no one sanctions the US and Bush was making tough decisions.
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Mar 25, 2022 18:06
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selec posted:The naked illegitimacy of the Supreme Court and the senate are great reasons to doubt the legitimacy of the entire enterprise. We can see the edifice of state being nakedly corrupt over and over again, undeniably so. So where does the faith in the system come from? If an entire third of the substructure is an obvious partisan rubber stamp mechanism and half of another third is an antidemocratic institution designed to subvert popular will by deciding arbitrary units of population (states) all get equal representation, where is the legitimate work product we can point at? Are there any democracies that don’t have a Senate equivalent?
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Mar 25, 2022 18:10
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selec posted:None of this goes to supporting the legitimacy of what we currently have though; if I’m reading this right you’re just addressing that change is hard (agree) and would be violent (agree; the rich won’t go quietly) and that maybe people want different things. It doesn't, but my quibble is not with the idea that much of our current government (particularly the Senate and Supreme Court, which are linked problems) is illegitimate, just that said illegitimacy is not, in my view, anywhere near a point where "throwing it out" is a sensible way to deal with it. I think we are much more likely address things with peaceful activism, elections and non-political cultural shifts (by which I mean changing attitudes - it wasn't government action that made people realize weed was safer than alcohol, or that gay people are normal people who deserve full rights; the government has begun to act on those issues because public opinion has changed, due to the work of artists and activists.) Our government was once much more illegitimate, when you consider denying suffrage to women and the poor, or slavery, or legally enforced segregation. These things have been addressed, without throwing out the 1789 Constitution. (One, of course, required a war.) Things can be addressed. For all the ruthlessness Republicans leveraged to steal SCOTUS seats, Democrats are successfully appointing a great justice right now - because if you keep Republican power limited enough, then they can't stop that. I'm advocating patience because the downsides of hitting the "abort" button and starting over would be extreme (my #1 point), and because the upsides may never actually manifest themselves and you could easily end up with a worse government (my point #2), because not enough people have been persuaded to favor good, left-wing policy.
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Mar 25, 2022 18:12
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Bishyaler posted:Haven't a bunch of liberal-leaning people in this thread argued that the mass hardship and death caused by sanctions is worth it for regime change? How come its okay for other countries but not us? Should be pretty easy to quote several of them if they did.
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Mar 25, 2022 18:15
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selec posted:The consequences are Clarence Thomas being in the hospital with some rare Covid strain that sprung from the social milieu she runs in. Apparently he's out of the hospital now after spending a week there. Went in with flu like symptoms then had iv antibiotics for an unknown infection. https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/25/politics/thomas-released/index.html
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Mar 25, 2022 18:16
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punk rebel ecks posted:Are there any democracies that don’t have a Senate equivalent? Israel, which has its own very different set of problems caused by the Knesset threshold rules and single chamber.
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Mar 25, 2022 18:17
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Mellow Seas posted:It doesn't, but my quibble is not with the idea that much of our current government (particularly the Senate and Supreme Court, which are linked problems) is illegitimate, just that said illegitimacy is not, in my view, anywhere near a point where "throwing it out" is a sensible way to deal with it. I think we are much more likely address things with peaceful activism, elections and non-political cultural shifts (by which I mean changing attitudes - it wasn't government action that made people realize weed was safer than alcohol, or that gay people are normal people who deserve full rights; the government has begun to act on those issues because public opinion has changed, due to the work of artists and activists.) What would be the threshold to hit abort?
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Mar 25, 2022 18:19
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Mellow Seas posted:It doesn't, but my quibble is not with the idea that much of our current government (particularly the Senate and Supreme Court, which are linked problems) is illegitimate, just that said illegitimacy is not, in my view, anywhere near a point where "throwing it out" is a sensible way to deal with it. I think we are much more likely address things with peaceful activism, elections and non-political cultural shifts (by which I mean changing attitudes - it wasn't government action that made people realize weed was safer than alcohol, or that gay people are normal people who deserve full rights; the government has begun to act on those issues because public opinion has changed, due to the work of artists and activists.) the last thing the democrats "addressed" in this fashion was 'how do we stop all these pesky unwanted ethnicities from trying to immigrate over the southern border,' and their solution was 'publicize the fact we're throwing their kids into dog cages in the hopes that'll scare anyone else out of making the trip.' one of the architects of that program is currently president of the united states, and has, after an election where the monstrous behavior of the previous administration in brutalizing these people was a major PR point, updated the program's rationale to "such people are not permitted in this country on the grounds the American government believes they are carriers of disease, and fundamentally undeserving of treatment." its function has remained identical. pointing to their work in maintaining the status quo on the Supreme Court as evidence that no, really, things can be changed puts you in a REMARKABLY weak position.
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Mar 25, 2022 18:28
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How are u posted:Oh for sure. Messaging needs a lot of work, marketing needs a lot of work, candidates need a lot of work, leadership needs a lot of work. It's an ugly big-tent party full of a mix of awful people and good people. Bumper sticker found!
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Mar 25, 2022 18:30
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The swing to people thinking Biden is too soft on Russia is pretty interesting. It used to be about 55% said he was doing "about right" on Ukraine. Also enjoying the 88% of Republicans who support direct military action against Russia in general, but oppose it if Biden is the one doing it. https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1507081073074790400 quote:President Biden faces intensifying pressure at home four weeks into the war, with a solid majority of Americans expressing doubt that he has done enough to punish Russia for its invasion of Ukraine, according to a poll by The Associated Press and NORC released Thursday. quote:Republicans, reflecting a near-universal disdain for Mr. Biden among the party’s rank-and-file, were reluctant to support military action — yet also convinced the president was not “tough enough” to deter Mr. Putin. Only 12 percent of Republicans approved of Mr. Biden’s actions, the poll found. quote:Just 6 percent of Americans, barely more than the poll’s 4 percent margin of error, thought Mr. Biden has been “too tough” on Moscow.
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Mar 25, 2022 18:30
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BiggerBoat posted:Bumper sticker found! Biden/Harris 2024: "It's Not Like We Killed Anyone YOU Cared About"
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Mar 25, 2022 18:36
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The swing to people thinking Biden is too soft on Russia is pretty interesting. It used to be about 55% said he was doing "about right" on Ukraine. I guess the Ukrainian PR offensive is working and you throw a mix in of latent anti-Russian sentiment that is a holdover from the Cold War. Also, you guys are free to disagree, but Afghanistan puts a taint on anything Biden does. It does not have a direct effect, but I think it puts a slight taint on anything Biden decides because he had to own the final defeat.
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Mar 25, 2022 18:39
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Eric Cantonese posted:I guess the Ukrainian PR offensive is working and you throw a mix in of latent anti-Russian sentiment that is a holdover from the Cold War. there is absolutely some degree of wounded imperial pride on the table, yeah. lot of people looking for a chance to prove that no, really, that last one was a fluke, we still got this, we swear. in the immortal words of Madeline Albright, may she rest in piss, why do we pay for such a big military, if we're not going to use it?
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Mar 25, 2022 18:41
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:there is absolutely some degree of wounded imperial pride on the table, yeah. lot of people looking for a chance to prove that no, really, that last one was a fluke, we still got this, we swear. Russia's military problems are also getting a lot of press and probably making a lot of people think that the US can go in and mop everything up without any fatalities. It'd be like the end of some horrible fantasy movie where blowing up the boss causes all the enemy soldiers to sink into cracks in the ground!
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Mar 25, 2022 18:51
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How much of that is preppers thinking this is their best chance to trigger a full nuclear exchange and become post-apocalyptic warlords
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Mar 25, 2022 18:52
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Gumball Gumption posted:What would be the threshold to hit abort?
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Mar 25, 2022 18:56
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:Yes. Biden and the democrats can recognize that the Supreme Court is illegitimate and ignore all rulings until the Supreme Court is fixed. You're asking for a dictatorship.
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Mar 25, 2022 18:57
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Fart Amplifier posted:You're asking for a dictatorship. it is unfortunate to hear that America was a dictatorship for the entirety of Lincoln's presidency.
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Mar 25, 2022 18:59
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Eric Cantonese posted:Also, you guys are free to disagree, but Afghanistan puts a taint on anything Biden does. It does not have a direct effect, but I think it puts a slight taint on anything Biden decides because he had to own the final defeat. Pulling out of Afghanistan is one of the things I most respect him for doing. It was a hard choice, with few upsides, but also the right thing to do. He hosed up some of it (the collapse and subsequent evacuation of our collaborators) and I think the US is being too punitive on the Taliban w/r/t humanitarian issues right now (though I get it, and the Taliban bears real loving responsibility for their dogshit governance), but Biden did the needful and ended our longest, most pointless war. That's leadership. Doing the right thing, even if it's all downsides, and even if you gently caress it up some along the way. If Trump had won we'd still be droning weddings over there.
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Mar 25, 2022 19:01
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:it is unfortunate to hear that America was a dictatorship for the entirety of Lincoln's presidency. Not sure that suspending habeas corpus, jailing people without charging them with a crime, never having a trial, and imprisoning them for life is a good example to use for arguing that something isn't like a dictatorship.
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Mar 25, 2022 19:07
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:it is unfortunate to hear that America was a dictatorship for the entirety of Lincoln's presidency. The President invalidating SCOTUS and seizing complete power is actually a dictatorship, unlike Lincoln.
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Mar 25, 2022 19:10
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Fart Amplifier posted:You're asking for a dictatorship. We must let America fall into fascism because changing the rules to prevent it is authoritarianism (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 25, 2022 19:12
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Bishyaler posted:We must let America fall into fascism because changing the rules to prevent it is authoritarianism Yes, eliminating a branch of government to enforce your political ideology is authoritarianism.
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Mar 25, 2022 19:13
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Bishyaler posted:We must let America fall into fascism because changing the rules to prevent it is authoritarianism You have framed it as a binary choice between fascism or authoritarianism (left-authoritarianism? I assume?). I don't believe that those are the only two choices.
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Mar 25, 2022 19:14
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How are u posted:You have framed it as a binary choice between fascism or authoritarianism (left-authoritarianism? I assume?). I don't believe that those are the only two choices. It's a binary choice between giving the system an overhaul or letting Republicans hold a permanent majority, and most people in this country are going to come to that conclusion once it's entirely too late.
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Mar 25, 2022 19:20
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Fart Amplifier posted:The President invalidating SCOTUS and seizing complete power is actually a dictatorship, unlike Lincoln. the president invalidated SCOTUS, and did not abide by its rulings until such time as it was fixed. it seemed to work out pretty well
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Mar 25, 2022 19:20
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Fart Amplifier posted:Yes, eliminating a branch of government to enforce your political ideology is authoritarianism. This seems incredibly dismissive to an actual issue to the point I would say you are being purposely malicious. Ignoring the Supreme Court is also not even “authoritarian” considering the Supreme Court legally has no power other than what is granted by the executive branch. There is already precedent has already been established demonstrating it is perfectly legal and within the authority of the constitution to ignore the ruling of a Supreme Court.
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Mar 25, 2022 19:23
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Bishyaler posted:It's a binary choice between giving the system an overhaul or letting Republicans hold a permanent majority, and most people in this country are going to come to that conclusion once it's entirely too late. What do you mean when you say "give the system an overhaul" ?
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Mar 25, 2022 19:23
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Fart Amplifier posted:Yes, eliminating a branch of government to enforce your political ideology is authoritarianism. And all of the civil rights and voting rights that Republicans aim to revoke won't result in authoritarianism? You're going to West Wing yourself right into never holding office again.
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Mar 25, 2022 19:26
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Ignoring the Supreme Court by packing the court or using other means is hardly anything uncommon in democracies. Especially those in the Western Hemisphere. If the courts are hindering the direction the citizens want to go and we’re initially unjustly then undermining them is completely justified.
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Mar 25, 2022 19:27
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White House's "gas prices plan" options: Likely - A major release of the nation’s strategic oil reserves. - Loans and other incentives to energy producers to encourage production if they hold down prices. - A federal gas tax holiday. Under Consideration - Rebate checks for motorists. - Using decommissioned buses in major cities to promote public transit and reduce gas demand. Had "Preliminary Conversations" On, But Unlikely To Happen - A "windfall tax" on 95 percent the profits of all firms with more than $500 million in revenue above what those firms typically earn in profits. https://twitter.com/JStein_WaPo/status/1507405481408610308
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Mar 25, 2022 19:27
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Bishyaler posted:And all of the civil rights and voting rights that Republicans aim to revoke won't result in authoritarianism? You're going to West Wing yourself right into never holding office again. You're not going to have any civil rights in red states if you can just ignore the courts.
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Mar 25, 2022 19:28
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How are u posted:What do you mean when you say "give the system an overhaul" ? America's institutions need to be adjusted for resiliency against bad faith actors, and that's the bare minimum which needs to happen if you'd like to preserve this system. Otherwise you can continue as is and live under a permanent Republican majority until states start to secede / civil war breaks out.
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Mar 25, 2022 19:30
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I don't think everyone ignoring all the courts was what was proposed. Presumably in this world of Democrats who give a poo poo they will also do something about these red States. Of course this is all pure fantasy.
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Mar 25, 2022 19:30
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