US CE Spring 2022: I'm convinced it's useless which is why I argue about it all day every day

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > US CE Spring 2022: I'm convinced it's useless which is why I argue about it all day every day

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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!: May 31, 2006

remember back when the wise moderate take on the democrats was 'surely they'll do something to protect voting rights with a trifecta, it's their asses if they don't, they don't have a death wish'

and now, having witnessed the democratic party decide that no, they will not be doing anything to protect voting rights, staring down the barrel of Republicans about to sweep back into power, the argument has become that we can't delegitimize the tools of republican rule, because that would be dictatorship

is there any ideology here at all, beyond the blind veneration of machine processes?

# ? Mar 25, 2022 19:31

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# ? May 26, 2024 16:55

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!: May 31, 2006

Fart Amplifier posted:

You're not going to have any civil rights in red states if you can just ignore the courts.

you're not going to have any voting rights in red states if you don't ignore the courts.

# ? Mar 25, 2022 19:32

Bishyaler: Dec 30, 2009; Megamarm

Fart Amplifier posted:

You're not going to have any civil rights in red states if you can just ignore the courts.

You won't anyway on our current trajectory. Democrats are doing next to nothing to stop red states from impinging on people's rights and they hold power at the federal level. Imagine what happens after the midterms, and what happens after 2024.

# ? Mar 25, 2022 19:32

Willa Rogers: Mar 11, 2005

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

The swing to people thinking Biden is too soft on Russia is pretty interesting. It used to be about 55% said he was doing "about right" on Ukraine.

Also enjoying the 88% of Republicans who support direct military action against Russia in general, but oppose it if Biden is the one doing it.

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1507081073074790400

That might be related to the same poll's results on not trusting him to handle much of anything else, either:

Although the results definitely are influenced by partisanship, the fact that slightly less than a majority of Democrats trust Biden to "effectively handle a crisis" is pretty dang :raise:

and shows the drawback of nominating & electing a barely sentient elder during the most-recent most important election ever.

eta: When I was parsing the results on housing insecurity from the same poll earlier I thought it was kind of notable that Biden's approval ratings on the economy have p. much flipped over the past year:

Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Mar 25, 2022

# ? Mar 25, 2022 19:34

Fart Amplifier: Apr 12, 2003

Harold Fjord posted:

I don't think everyone ignoring all the courts was what was proposed.

Presumably in this world of Democrats who give a poo poo they will also do something about these red States. Of course this is all pure fantasy.

They'd have literally no authority to do anything about red states. And even if they did, you'd have Trump or some other republican coming in, ignoring SCOTUS and cleaning up the blue states

# ? Mar 25, 2022 19:35

virtualboyCOLOR: Dec 22, 2004

Fart Amplifier posted:

You're not going to have any civil rights in red states if you can just ignore the courts.

Man if only there was a national force that could guard against red stated stripping peoples voting rights.

gently caress man I can�t think of anything except to post defeatist propaganda and wagging my finger at people who don�t play by the rules.

Fart Amplifier posted:

They'd have literally no authority to do anything about red states. And even if they did, you'd have Trump or some other republican coming in, ignoring SCOTUS and cleaning up the blue states

Oh no! That definitely didn�t already happen and certainly not happening right now!

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

virtualboyCOLOR fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Mar 25, 2022

# ? Mar 25, 2022 19:38

Fister Roboto: Feb 21, 2008

Fart Amplifier posted:

You're not going to have any civil rights in red states if you can just ignore the courts.

What's the plan to protect civil rights in red states that involves letting the supreme court do whatever they want then?

# ? Mar 25, 2022 19:44

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

Fart Amplifier posted:

They'd have literally no authority to do anything about red states. And even if they did, you'd have Trump or some other republican coming in, ignoring SCOTUS and cleaning up the blue states

Actually if the Democrats started loving trying they wouldn't lose so many loving elections.

# ? Mar 25, 2022 19:44

Fart Amplifier: Apr 12, 2003

virtualboyCOLOR posted:

Man if only there was a national force that could guard against red stated stripping peoples voting rights.

gently caress man I can’t think of anything except to post defeatist propaganda and wagging my finger at people who don’t play by the rules.

Oh no! That definitely didn’t already happen and certainly not happening right now!

This a completely ridiculous fantasy.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Mar 25, 2022 19:45

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

Which part? The part where Dems ever care enough to do this? Cuz I already pointed that out, it's hardly a rebuttal.

It's what should be done. It's what needs to be done.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Mar 25, 2022 19:48

ReidRansom: Oct 25, 2004

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

After taking 5 months to solve the daylight savings time issue, congress is moving on to the next largest problem in America: The Penny.

Covid supply chain issues, Zinc shortages, and the U.S. budget deficit have combined to make congress look into eliminating the penny.

The reasons for elimination are:

- It costs ~1.8 cents to make one penny and the GAO has determined that there is no possible way to lower the cost of making a penny to lower than the face value of the coin.
- The U.S. treasury says that roughly 2/3 of pennies minted never circulate. That means they are either lost, sitting in a drawer, or discarded.
- A Gallup poll from 2015 says that 2% of Americans admit that they throw their pennies into the trash and 40% never use them.
- Supply chain issues are not only raising the cost of making the penny, but also producing coin shortages. Despite these shortages, they are still minting money that will mostly never circulate.
- People are using more digital currency and pennies are less necessary for making change.

The arguments for keeping it are:

- Nickels cost more to make than a penny. The mint would have to produce more nickels to make up for the lack of pennies.
- Most coins circulate for an average of 20 or 30 years, so even though it costs more to make a penny than the penny is worth, it will probably still break even over a 20 or 30 year period.
- Pennies are one of the most common donations to charity. Organizations such as the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society, the Salvation Army, and the Ronald McDonald House ask people to donate pennies to raise funds.
- The Lincoln Presidential Library opposes eliminating any currency with Lincoln on it and the U.S. Zinc council says that 1,100 jobs are dependent on the penny minting process.

https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/circulating-coinage-production-totals-fall-for-2021
https://pantagraph.com/business/loc...b7f787f5d2.html

When the US half penny coin was eliminated in 1857, it was worth the equivalent today of 16�.

gently caress the penny. gently caress the nickel even. Maybe keep dimes, but even that is kinda iffy.

e: we could pay those 1100 people whose jobs depend on making the penny $70k/year each to sit around doing absolutely nothing and would still save money.

ReidRansom fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Mar 25, 2022

# ? Mar 25, 2022 19:55

virtualboyCOLOR: Dec 22, 2004

Fart Amplifier posted:

This a completely ridiculous fantasy.

The minority party (via popular vote) has been able to control the courts and suppress the will of the people and trample on civil rights using the methods provided by our current system.

If that isn�t ruling via authoritarianism then you have a hosed up view on what authoritarian rule looks like.

Again, your comments sound actively malicious.

# ? Mar 25, 2022 19:56

Mellow Seas: Oct 9, 2012; Can't post for 10 years!

Harold Fjord posted:

Actually if the Democrats started loving trying they wouldn't lose so many loving elections.

We shouldn't pretend that Republicans aren't also trying, and don't also set their positions with a goal of maximizing their electoral benefit (which is how a two party system remains competitive).

You don't win contests automatically by "trying," and losing is not evidence of a lack of effort. If the Red Sox go out and get one-hit by Gerrit Cole, does that mean that the Red Sox are weren't trying, or does it mean that it was impossible to hit Cole that night? It's a contest! Both sides are trying extremely hard. It's a pretty even matchup and both sides have a lot of talent and data on their side. (Over the long term, the Red Sox do get a lot of hits off of Cole, and Democrats do win a lot of elections. If they didn't win any elections things would be much worse.)

That's before you even consider that Republicans reap the benefits of general American attitudes on xenophobia, taxation, religion, socialism, and on and on.

Willa Rogers posted:

Although the results definitely are influenced by partisanship, the fact that slightly less than a majority of Democrats trust Biden to "effectively handle a crisis" is pretty dang and shows the drawback of nominating & electing a barely sentient elder during the most-recent most important election ever.

I mean the poll is phrased kind of oddly; a more charitable reading would be that 90% of Democrats have "some faith or complete faith" in Joe Biden to handle a crisis.

# ? Mar 25, 2022 19:58

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!: May 31, 2006

Fart Amplifier posted:

This a completely ridiculous fantasy.

how would you characterize 'no, really, NEXT time the dems have a trifecta they'll do something to preserve civil rights'

# ? Mar 25, 2022 19:59

ReidRansom: Oct 25, 2004

Oh poo poo lol, was I like a full day behind? OH well I've been busy.

# ? Mar 25, 2022 19:59

Gumball Gumption: Jan 7, 2012

Mellow Seas posted:

We shouldn't pretend that Republicans aren't also trying, and don't also set their positions with a goal of maximizing their electoral benefit (which is how a two party system remains competitive).

You don't win contests automatically by "trying," and losing is not evidence of a lack of effort. If the Red Sox go out and get one-hit by Gerrit Cole, does that mean that the Red Sox are weren't trying, or does it mean that it was impossible to hit Cole that night? It's a contest! Both sides are trying extremely hard. It's a pretty even matchup and both sides have a lot of talent and data on their side. (Over the long term, the Red Sox do get a lot of hits off of Cole, and Democrats do win a lot of elections. If they didn't win any elections things would be much worse.)

That's before you even consider that Republicans reap the benefits of general American attitudes on xenophobia, taxation, religion, socialism, and on and on.

I mean the poll is phrased kind of oddly; a more charitable reading would be that 90% of Democrats have "some faith or complete faith" in Joe Biden to handle a crisis.

The Red Sox should get better at the game since when they lose it leads to people I like having worse lives or just dying.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Mar 25, 2022 20:02

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

ReidRansom posted:

Oh poo poo lol, was I like a full day behind? OH well I've been busy.

Pennychat is as timeless as the watchful eye of the tyrant Lincoln emblazoned upon them.

# ? Mar 25, 2022 20:02

virtualboyCOLOR: Dec 22, 2004

Mellow Seas posted:

Both sides are trying extremely hard.

The Democrats are purposely in-fighting to prevent sweeping reforms that they were elected to implement. The Democrats (and by logical extension, their supporters) are perfectly fine with the current march toward fascism as long as it doesn�t impact their bottom line. If they did care the Supreme Court would have been packed by now, voting rights was be enshrined in law, and women�s right would be on the chopping block.

The only way to make this statement true is to say both sides are trying extremely hard to move this country to the right.

# ? Mar 25, 2022 20:04

Mellow Seas: Oct 9, 2012; Can't post for 10 years!

"I refuse to acknowledge that battles are sometimes extremely difficult to win and that people making a good faith effort to win them sometimes fail" is just such a loving out-there stance. I can't really engage it with it. It just goes against everything I know about... everything. But you guys do yous.

# ? Mar 25, 2022 20:07

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!: May 31, 2006

virtualboyCOLOR posted:

The Democrats are purposely in-fighting to prevent sweeping reforms that they were elected to implement. The Democrats (and by logical extension, their supporters) are perfectly fine with the current march toward fascism as long as it doesn’t impact their bottom line. If they did care the Supreme Court would have been packed by now, voting rights was be enshrined in law, and women’s right would be on the chopping block.

The only way to make this statement true is to say both sides are trying extremely hard to move this country to the right.

for further details, consult the Trump-Biden consensus on how to handle immigrants on the Mexican border, and the number of times the phrase 'congenitally diseased' features in the justification

# ? Mar 25, 2022 20:07

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

California's Prop 13 has borked the housing market so much there that:

- 5 out of the top 8 places in the country where people stay in their home the longest are in California.
- California homeowners stay in their home almost 50% longer than the average American.
- Older homes come on the market in California at 1/3 the rate of the nation average.

Also, the total amount of houses available for sale in the U.S. has declined by half in just two years.

quote:

With about half the number of homes available on the market as there were two years ago, many frustrated buyers are wondering when more owners will be ready to sell. A new study by Redfin shows that it may be starting to happen � although homeowners are still staying in their homes much longer than they did a decade ago.

The study found that U.S. homeowner tenure dipped a bit in November 2021, when the typical homeowner had spent 13.2 years in their home � down from 13.5 years in November 2020, and the first drop in tenure length since 2012, when the average was 10.1 years. The recent dip may be the result of owners cashing in on high prices, and by the scores of remote workers opting to relocate during the pandemic.

But it�s unclear if the market is really at a turning point. In some areas, homes are being held far longer than the national average. In the Los Angeles market, homes have typically sold every 18 years, the longest homeowner tenure in the country; in fact, seven California locales are among the top 20 in which people stay put longest.

One reason could be a misunderstanding of the state�s Proposition 13. Under the law, property taxes are kept low for homeowners for as long as they stay in the home, and only rise again when they sell it, reflecting its higher value. Fearful their next purchase will come with much higher taxes, a growing population of older Californians has stayed in place, Redfin suggests. But changes to the law now allow those seniors to transfer their lower tax rate to a new home. When this is more widely understood, California homeowner tenure could slide.

Redfin�s study shows that Midwest cities � Chicago, St. Louis and Detroit among them � saw the greatest increases in tenure, while popular destinations like Las Vegas, Atlanta and Tampa, Fla., saw the greatest decreases. This week�s chart, based on the study, shows where people stay put the longest, as well as the local median sale prices.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/24/realestate/where-do-homeowners-stay-in-their-homes-the-longest.html

# ? Mar 25, 2022 20:08

Gumball Gumption: Jan 7, 2012

Mellow Seas posted:

"I refuse to acknowledge that battles are sometimes extremely difficult to win and that people making a good faith effort to win them sometimes fail" is just such a loving out-there stance. I can't really engage it with it. It just goes against everything I know about... everything. But you guys do yous.

If it helps I think the way you look at politics is entirely backwards. You're looking at people who are asking for your time, money, and support to improve your life and when they not only screw it up but screw it up to the point of it appearing malicious you just go "oh jeez guys I get it. It's hard. Don't even worry about it". It's learned helplessness. Politicians don't get the luxury of failing because their job is life or death, we just don't see it that way because it's abstracted compared to someone like a doctor.

Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Mar 25, 2022

# ? Mar 25, 2022 20:09

Jaxyon: Mar 7, 2016; I’m just saying I would like to see a man beat a woman in a cage. Just to be sure.

Bishyaler posted:

Haven't a bunch of liberal-leaning people in this thread argued that the mass hardship and death caused by sanctions is worth it for regime change? How come its okay for other countries but not us?

Have they? Go ahead and quote 3 or more of them since you said "a bunch".

Though this kind of response would kind of indicate you agree with them?

# ? Mar 25, 2022 20:11

virtualboyCOLOR: Dec 22, 2004

Mellow Seas posted:

"I refuse to acknowledge that battles are sometimes extremely difficult to win and that people making a good faith effort to win them sometimes fail" is just such a loving out-there stance. I can't really engage it with it. It just goes against everything I know about... everything. But you guys do yous.

Please demonstrate Biden and the democrats:

- packing the courts / ignoring bogus ruling from an illegitimate court

- passing voting rights acts like peoples lives depend on it and it�s not some loving budget bill

- resolving the minority rule the far right fascist party has had for over 2 decades

These are solvable issues that can be resolve RIGHT NOW.

But hey, let�s have a defeatist attitude or a �aw shucks better luck next time�. History demonstrate that is the winning strategy!

vvvvvv fair.

Then to move things back on topic, the Supreme Court is illegitimate and the recent news about alleged sex pest Justice Thomas and his wife is additional proof of that. Those that justify supporting the Supreme Court and their rulings are complicit in the march towards ending women�s rights.

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

Thomas is a terrible justice and bad person, but he wasn't accused of rape.

Updated.

virtualboyCOLOR fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Mar 25, 2022

# ? Mar 25, 2022 20:12

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Y'all know we have a different thread for this kind of electoralism/party/etc chat, right? I'll link it for ease: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3986700

# ? Mar 25, 2022 20:28

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

It's not electoralism to talk about things that the currently elected officials could and should be actively doing, though for obvious reasons those arguments directly relate to the question of the effectiveness of voting for those same elected officials.

# ? Mar 25, 2022 20:33

Bishyaler: Dec 30, 2009; Megamarm

Jaxyon posted:

Have they? Go ahead and quote 3 or more of them since you said "a bunch".

Though this kind of response would kind of indicate you agree with them?

Well, in the last thread here's people that argued for sanctions:

Gort posted:

Economic sanctions, funding and arming Ukraine are the most obvious ones.

Fame Douglas posted:

Even Biden's sanctions are disappointing, Jesus Christ is he not meeting the needs of the moment

RBA Starblade posted:

Oh, I never put that part of it together lol

You have confused me for someone else I think, so far all I've said about the issue is that we should stop at sanctions, nations aren't run like households (this coming back in vogue is still strange to me), and that it's good we all agree now the US isn't going to war.

Rad Russian posted:

They already backtracked on the "imminent invasion" warmongering nonsense, so no surprise there. US is actively making the situation worse when they can simply step back from the public light about a region on the opposite side of the world from them, and work through existing diplomatic channels with EU allies. EU nations should drive the policy there, declare sanctions, and make public statements of their stance on this. The current approach is no different from the "diplomacy" seen in the Middle East. U.S. presence is actively making the situation worse for people that see the U.S. as the enemy. It's too easy for Putin to rile up support for war right now. And he will have 0 support and a revolution on his hands if he starts talking about France/Poland/Finalnd etc. as the enemies that Russia should go to war with.

# ? Mar 25, 2022 20:34

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Bishyaler posted:

Well, in the last thread here's people that argued for sanctions:

My eyes must be deceiving me, who's arguing for regime change in Russia?

# ? Mar 25, 2022 20:36

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Thomas is a terrible justice and bad person, but he wasn't accused of rape.

California and Delaware are sending out $300 and $400 per car (capped at 2) gas rebates to taxpayers.

Electric cars will qualify for the gas rebate under California's program.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/03/23/california-gas-rebate-newsom/7148209001/

# ? Mar 25, 2022 20:36

Bishyaler: Dec 30, 2009; Megamarm

Kalit posted:

My eyes must be deceiving me, who's arguing for regime change in Russia?

The point of sanctions is to generate so much human suffering that the populace rises up against their government. This is well established.

# ? Mar 25, 2022 20:37

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Bishyaler posted:

The point of sanctions is to generate so much human suffering that the populace rises up against their government. This is well established.

That seems to be your interpretation of what these sanctions are for. That's not what those people were arguing for. Stop making up arguments

# ? Mar 25, 2022 20:38

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Bishyaler posted:

The point of sanctions is to generate so much human suffering that the populace rises up against their government. This is well established.

No, they are for different things and target different things.

The current sanctions on Russia are to pressure Russia to withdraw from Ukraine. They aren't targeted at the general public, going to cause regime change, or intended to spark a revolution.

Sanctions on Iran in the 1980's, early 2000's, and 2018 were specifically designed to cause mass economic pain as part of a regime change policy.

Sanctions on military leaders, imported MRAPS, and international financial accounts from Burma are meant to make it more expensive and difficult for the government to acquire the equipment it was using to carry out its coup.

Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Mar 25, 2022

# ? Mar 25, 2022 20:42

Bishyaler: Dec 30, 2009; Megamarm

Kalit posted:

That seems to be your interpretation of what these sanctions are for. That's not what those people were arguing for. Stop making up arguments

So you're saying these people didn't understand the consequences of sanctions, and they were arguing from a position of ignorance? Well, uh, that's a weird defense.

# ? Mar 25, 2022 20:43

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

Those are going to be the results so that is what those people are arguing for.

When you know a consequence of an action and argue for the action you also argue for the consequence.

A current news item related to our ongoing conversation, NLRB is struggling:
https://twitter.com/jamieson/status/1507389089984790534?s=20&t=cV-OexSwhR5HIIfvjr6aPQ

# ? Mar 25, 2022 20:43

Bishyaler: Dec 30, 2009; Megamarm

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

No, they are for different things and target different things.

The current sanctions on Russia are to pressure Russia to withdraw from Ukraine. They aren't targeted at general public, going to cause regime change, or intended to spark a revolution.

Sanctions on Iran in the 1980's, early 2000's, and 2018 were specifically designed to cause mass economic pain as part of a regime change policy.

Sanctions on military leaders and accounts from Burma are meant to make it more expensive and difficult for the government to acquire the equipment it was using to carry out its coup.

Pressure Russia? Where do you believe that pressure comes from? Could it be suffering citizens?

# ? Mar 25, 2022 20:45

haveblue: Aug 15, 2005; Toilet Rascal

Harold Fjord posted:

�Republicans are more resolved to destroy this place than Democrats are to save it" seems like the best way to describe all of american history in the 21st century

# ? Mar 25, 2022 20:46

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Bishyaler posted:

Pressure Russia? Where do you believe that pressure comes from? Could it be suffering citizens?

Seems like you don't actually know what is sanctioned if you are asking that.

# ? Mar 25, 2022 20:46

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Edit: Double posted somehow despite the the 10 second cooldown.

# ? Mar 25, 2022 20:46

Velocity Raptor: Jul 27, 2007; I MADE A PROMISE
I'LL DO ANYTHING

Harold Fjord posted:

Those are going to be the results so that is what those people are arguing for.

When you know a consequence of an action and argue for the action you also argue for the consequence.

A current news item related to our ongoing conversation, NLRB is struggling:
https://twitter.com/jamieson/status/1507389089984790534?s=20&t=cV-OexSwhR5HIIfvjr6aPQ

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > US CE Spring 2022: Republicans are more resolved to destroy this place than Democrats are to save it.

# ? Mar 25, 2022 20:47

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# ? May 26, 2024 16:55

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Some new interesting statistics on housing by Pew Research.

# ? Mar 25, 2022 20:48

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > US CE Spring 2022: I'm convinced it's useless which is why I argue about it all day every day

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