|
DeadlyMuffin posted:It could be, for the same reason. Why are you arguing that sanctions on Russia in order to force regime change are unacceptable because of the hardship imposed, but hardship in the pursuit of glorious revolution in the US is okay? Because if there was revolution in the US it would be happening by-and-large on its own citizens' terms, whereas sanctions are the US government trying to impose its will on other nations.
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2022 22:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 13:49 |
|
|
Indeed. Sanctioning the US for the Iraq War would have been the right and moral thing to do.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2022 22:33
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:Yeah, this weird derail also started days ago and I keep bringing up Afghanistan as an example where we are causing a lot of harm but seem to have no positive effects from sanctions. The paper argues that private companies refusing to do business in SA, not government sanctions, could have been the cause, but that it's impossible to tell. It also includes a few Nelson Mandela quotes where he pretty firmly believed sanctions helped. Nelson Mandela posted:To lift sanctions now would be to run the risk of aborting the process toward ending apartheid. How are u posted:Indeed. Sanctioning the US for the Iraq War would have been the right and moral thing to do. Agreed. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Mar 25, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2022 22:38
|
|
|
RBA Starblade posted:We can probably math this out. How many civilian deaths have the sanctions generated to date, and how many could they? How many have Russia's imperialist war generated, and how many could it? In the short term and the long term, how many civilian deaths will, or could, the sanctions prevent if it assists in ending the war of aggression? We could substitute or include suffering as well, including global effects of both, considering the upcoming wheat issue from the war, and also considering the reports of mass forced displacement as well. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2022 22:46
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/baseballcrank/status/1507197054275174400?s=20 The right have completely gone insane at investigative reporters going for Thomas’ stupidly-obvious-evil wife.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2022 22:47
|
|
|
Nonsense posted:https://twitter.com/baseballcrank/status/1507197054275174400?s=20 The performative nature of democrats allow for this kind of bullshit. See Biden saying “If you have a problem figuring out whether you’re for me or Trump then you ain’t black” or Pelosi thanking George Floyd for being murdered to “solve” police brutality.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2022 22:58
|
|
|
Nonsense posted:https://twitter.com/baseballcrank/status/1507197054275174400?s=20 It's not going "completely insane". It's how people who know they are in the wrong handle any hint of accontability. If you react at a 10 no matter what, people stop trying to hold you accountable because it's too much work.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2022 22:59
|
|
|
With respect to my fellow enraged leftist agitators, aren't these sanction arguments again bumping into the issue of working with the world we are faced with vs the one we should have? Not to give our moderate incremental change friends here a pass on not recognizing how wrong and unsustainable the world is... but in a world so wrong, where we have such little power, what kind of "right" action exists from the supposed extension of our will and power? The world we should have, the world we know could exist, in fact the future of this current world and any worthwhile deviation from it... will all involve the suffering and death of those with the least means and power. Just seems important to consider that wrt sanctions in the face of the suffering of Russians and Ukrainians. We certainly shouldn't shut up about it, but surely our world being wrong and doomed both is and can't be an argument against everything, at least for discussion to be constructive. To crudely elaborate on part of that, our world already churns people up as capital. This engine don't run unless we're exploiting human lives. BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 01:20 on Mar 26, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 00:39
|
|
|
BRJurgis posted:With respect to my fellow enraged leftist agitators, aren't these sanction arguments again bumping into the issue of working with the world we are faced with vs the one we should have? Not to give our moderate incremental change friends here a pass on not recognizing how wrong and unsustainable the world is... but in a world so wrong, where we have such little power, what kind of "right" action exists from the supposed extension of our will and power? What, specifically, do you think we should be doing?
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 01:24
|
|
|
some plague rats posted:What, specifically, do you think we should be doing? Talk to everybody you can, sow an attitude of revulsion with the status quo and righteous outrage amongst humans of the world (labor and any oppressed minorities especially), keep paying attention? Sing, dance, love people, drink and get high? It's quite a question, if you have answers to what you've asked PM me I'd sleep better doing more. Sorry that it became about me.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 01:43
|
|
|
I assume the anti-sanctioneers here utterly condemn say, the BDS movement and those who support it for seeking to inflict horrible suffering on Israelis and Israeli settlers in particular?
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 01:44
|
|
|
DarkCrawler posted:I assume the anti-sanctioneers here utterly condemn say, the BDS movement and those who support it for seeking to inflict horrible suffering on Israelis and Israeli settlers in particular? Tell you what, if BDS somehow kills a few hundred thousand Israelis I'll condemn it for sure.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 01:49
|
|
|
Srice posted:Tell you what, if BDS somehow kills a few hundred thousand Israelis I'll condemn it for sure. Have the Russian sanctions killed a few hundred thousand Russians?
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 01:53
|
|
|
DarkCrawler posted:I assume the anti-sanctioneers here utterly condemn say, the BDS movement and those who support it for seeking to inflict horrible suffering on Israelis and Israeli settlers in particular? This is always the dumbest take, BDS isn't a polity there is no parity in the comparison. What states are implementing BDS recommended policies? Furthermore Israel is a genocidal apartheid settler colonial state and much like NP governed South Africa it probably shouldn't be allowed to exist. Russia is a belligerent imperial power and isn't doing anything that the US hasn't been doing on multiple continents for decades.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 01:54
|
|
|
Srice posted:Tell you what, if BDS somehow kills a few hundred thousand Israelis I'll condemn it for sure. How many can they kill before you condemn them? Ten thousand? Fifty thousand? Terminal autist posted:This is always the dumbest take, BDS isn't a polity there is no parity in the comparison. What states are implementing BDS recommended policies? Ah, so BDS would be evil if they actually achieved their goals, but before that is fine to call for sanctions? quote:Furthermore Israel is a genocidal apartheid settler colonial state and much like NP governed South Africa it probably shouldn't be allowed to exist. So...sanctions are ok against genocidal apartheid states..? quote:Russia is a belligerent imperial power and isn't doing anything that the US hasn't been doing on multiple continents for decades. So uhh...sanctions are...not ok against a belligerent imperial power? What even is this reply lol DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Mar 26, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 01:55
|
|
|
Papercut posted:Have the Russian sanctions killed a few hundred thousand Russians? Depends on if we live in a world where sanctions immediately kill people right after being enacted, I suppose!
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 01:56
|
|
|
Bishyaler posted:Because if there was revolution in the US it would be happening by-and-large on its own citizens' terms, whereas sanctions are the US government trying to impose its will on other nations. It's not even that, it's greatly exacerbating the suffering of innocent people in the vague hopes that the resulting instability will make something more US-favored happen. It's just open, pointless cruelty. "Well what are we supposed to do instead?" seems to be the strange counter-argument, as if some terrible fate will befall the U.S if it's not actively making every situation it sees tangibly worse.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 01:57
|
|
|
You all get that United States is not the only party sanctioning Russia, right?
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 02:03
|
|
|
Srice posted:Depends on if we live in a world where sanctions immediately kill people right after being enacted, I suppose! Wait, I thought you were saying you support BDS because it has not yet killed a few hundred thousand people. But now you're saying we should only judge sanctions based on what they've done so far? So yes you do support the Russia sanctions?
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 02:03
|
|
|
Papercut posted:Wait, I thought you were saying you support BDS because it has not yet killed a few hundred thousand people. But now you're saying we should only judge sanctions based on what they've done so far? So yes you do support the Russia sanctions? I was being flippant about those BDS posts because Terminal autist posted:This is always the dumbest take, BDS isn't a polity there is no parity in the comparison. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 02:07
|
|
|
DarkCrawler posted:You all get that United States is not the only party sanctioning Russia, right? So that makes it OK if the U.S does it? This is a literal playground argument. Just because Davey is goofing off on the monkey bars doesn't mean you should too. DeadlyMuffin posted:Cutting out "if you are pro-sanctions you are pro massive amounts of hardship." because it's simply a strawman. In this case it actually is not. It's very confusing as to where the pro-sanction side's concerns lie. Practical? Sanctions have been proven, repeatedly, to not actually work. There is no practical argument to be made in favor of them. Moral? Sanctions have again been proven, repeatedly, to just make everything worse for innocent people. There is, again, no possible moral argument to be made in their favor. Since both of those are a complete bust, we're left with only two reasonable motives: 1) Cruelty: They simply want The Enemy to suffer. This is a symptom of War Brain so the suffering of The Enemy is justified on it's own merits and any arguments against this will be dismissed as either foolish or traitorous. 2) Self-satisfaction. "What should we do instead???". The U.S must act because otherwise they, personally, would feel helpless about the situation. Whether that action actually helps or not doesn't matter as long as they feel better. Yinlock fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Mar 26, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 02:11
|
|
|
Honestly at this point I think we can summarize that sanctions need to be examined on their own since each situation is different but no one can win that argument so we're stuck in this infinite loop. It's especially fitting because the entire argument started because I said the US' motives in Ukraine were not something as pure as being opposed to all genocide because they're happy to allow allies to commit genocide and have committed actions in Afghanistan and Iraq that sure look a lot like genocide, sanctions in Afghanistan worsening good shortages being the latest example. Which then spun out into sanctions being good or bad as a blanket rule which is really proving to be a silly argument. Maybe sometimes they work, maybe sometimes they don't, no one can seem to quantify it but those who think they work know it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 02:12
|
|
|
Srice posted:I was being flippant about those BDS posts because So, if BDS achieved its goal of getting enough people on board to have an impact, you would oppose it?
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 02:16
|
|
|
I'm glad this has been a productive talk about the efficacy of sanctions. Perhaps a whole new thread would be better to keep it going.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 02:26
|
|
|
DarkCrawler posted:
Again BDS isn't a state and Israel isn't comparable to Russia, even entertaining this line of argument is so dumb because the likelihood of this happening is fantasy. Strictly speaking from a purely moralist viewpoint the average Israeli is much more complicit than the average Russian. It would be morally correct to sanction America during manifest destiny and today it wouldn't because of who the sanctions overwhelmingly effect.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 02:30
|
|
|
GoutPatrol posted:I'm glad this has been a productive talk about the efficacy of sanctions. Perhaps a whole new thread would be better to keep it going. That warning was given two days ago- and weeks earlier, when all of this bullshit was being originally deployed in the Ukraine thread. Bolded text is not a substitute for moderation. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Mar 26, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 02:44
|
|
|
GoutPatrol posted:I'm glad this has been a productive talk about the efficacy of sanctions. Perhaps a whole new thread would be better to keep it going. Why the rush to change subject? You can just let people talk about stuff, sanctions are currently eventing from the US, right? It's not like we're pushing over people who want to talk about other stuff and slapping the books out of their hands or anything. Pretty sure that thread would die on the vine, because sanctions aren't a big enough topic to sustain an entire thread, which is what seems to happen every time this gets tried. It comes across as the mods going "stop talking about this, but in a way that's your fault instead of mine". Discendo Vox posted:That warning was given two days ago- and weeks earlier, when all of this bullshit was being originally deployed in the Ukraine thread. Bolded text is not a substitute for moderation. What do you get out of posting like this. Do you just really enjoy being volunteer Thread Cop or something?
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 02:58
|
|
|
some plague rats posted:Why the rush to change subject? You can just let people talk about stuff, sanctions are currently eventing from the US, right? It's not like we're pushing over people who want to talk about other stuff and slapping the books out of their hands or anything. The scope of this argument is frankly more than just the US and has provided several international, non-US examples. I think it would be more productive to move to a different topic, and considering that the topic has been going on for several days, then there should be enough meat there. Unless, of course, this topic has the same dozen people sniping at each other about the same things over and over again, and making 40 reports about why this thread sucks when I'm sleeping. If that is the case, I'll make it clear that the thread should move on for that reason. Which is more preferable?
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 03:08
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:That warning was given two days ago- and weeks earlier, when all of this bullshit was being originally deployed in the Ukraine thread. Bolded text is not a substitute for moderation. Okay volunteer hall monitor, we get it, you're eager to shut down discussion about bald inefficacy and bald hypocrisy of liberalism. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 03:10
|
|
|
some plague rats posted:What do you get out of posting like this. Do you just really enjoy being volunteer Thread Cop or something? I enjoy having a functional debate and discussion forum with consistently applied moderation standards, with the resulting sharing of knowledge and learning. That becomes difficult when the moderators continue to facilitate a culture of open contempt for the space.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 03:12
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:I enjoy having a functional debate and discussion forum with consistently applied moderation standards, with the resulting sharing of knowledge and learning. That becomes difficult when the moderators continue to facilitate a culture of open contempt for the space. Open contempt? People are having an interesting discussion about a relevant topic. How does it facilitate good discussion of anything when the second something runs too long there's one guy running to the teacher and griping that the other children are discussing something they were told not to!!!
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 03:19
|
|
|
GoutPatrol posted:The scope of this argument is frankly more than just the US and has provided several international, non-US examples. I think it would be more productive to move to a different topic, and considering that the topic has been going on for several days, then there should be enough meat there. Is that 40 different reports or reports from 40 different people? Because those two situations require two different types of moderation
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 03:21
|
|
|
Oh my god all of you shutup and talk about something else. Even if you were all mature enough to talk about it, you cannot stop slapfighting and acting like children. Knock it off. some plague rats posted:Is that 40 different reports or reports from 40 different people? Because those two situations require two different types of moderation Knock. It. Off. I swear the next poster who comes in here and decides they know best on how to moderate the thread (includes you Vox) can enjoy a week. If the thread wants to discuss the sanctions, fine. That's what we'll discuss. But you guys smacking each other silly over who is best to decide that is pretty bad. By popular request we can discuss sanctions until Koos takes a further look at the absolute flood of reports we have to deal with now. If there is a problem, report it. The general rule of not posting about posters applies here. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Mar 26, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 03:23
|
|
|
In some good news, Denver citizens defunded the police by 14 million dollars. https://twitter.com/EliseSchmelzer/status/1507475702202843145 https://twitter.com/EliseSchmelzer/status/1507476692457111552 https://twitter.com/EliseSchmelzer/status/1507477299477704704 Unfortunately, the citizens must pay the bill for their own beatings, and the budget for beatings will be increased by a majority bipartisan vote.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 03:40
|
|
|
Frankly, I agree that “Defund the Police” is a bad slogan. We need to think bigger: I’m partial to “Defenestrate the Police” (too long to be catchy) or “Deglove the Police” (content warning needed if someone googles the term “degloving”). Just brainstorming, really. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 05:39
|
|
|
So, about that Utah's governor veto the other day: https://twitter.com/cnnbrk/status/1507472838038470664 I never have much faith in Utah politics, but their lawmakers overriding the governor's veto on this still surprises me 
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 07:23
|
|
|
Terminal autist posted:Again BDS isn't a state and Israel isn't comparable to Russia, even entertaining this line of argument is so dumb because the likelihood of this happening is fantasy. Strictly speaking from a purely moralist viewpoint the average Israeli is much more complicit than the average Russian. It would be morally correct to sanction America during manifest destiny and today it wouldn't because of who the sanctions overwhelmingly effect. This doesn't make any sense- 1. BDS isn't a State, but neither is sanctioning Russia. They're simply policy initiatives that can be advanced by States. 2. Likelihood of it happening isn't relevant to the discussion of the morality unless your argument is that it's okay to advocate for torture*, but only if you think it's unlikely the government will follow your suggestion. 3. What makes the average Israeli "much more complicit" than the average Russian? Follow up to this-- If the average Israeli is more complicit is the argument of this actually that sanctions aren't a bad thing, but States (or their populations?) have to reach a particular level of evilness in order to make it right to target them with sanctions and Russia/Russians have not reached that line? If so, I don't think most people actually disagree that strongly it really comes down to where we believe the line ought to be drawn. * I don't agree that sanctions are equivalent to torture, but other posters have argued it
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 12:36
|
|
|
Yinlock posted:Practical? Sanctions have been proven, repeatedly, to not actually work. There is no practical argument to be made in favor of them. Without even addressing the truth of this: I do not believe this is widely accepted as true by the people imposing and supporting sanctions. Governments impose sanctions because the people running those governments believe sanctions can work.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 12:59
|
|
|
"But it feels true" -  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 13:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 13:49 |
|
|
As been said- when it's pointed out the sanctions are causing misery, poverty and starvation, a good chunk of them go 'You see? They're working!'
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2022 13:53
|
|
