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jarofpiss posted:i'm not trying to make you like kdm or whatever because clearly my interests don't align with the board game thread, but i'm just saying you guys get pretty hostile very quickly and there are some weird boundaries that are drawn itt and nowhere else. If you just left it at "kdm has bad art, I enjoy playing the game but I won't deny or defend the problematic elements" then I don't think there would have been much pushback. Instead you denied those elements altogether and argued that people were just being prudes about it. The denial and piss poor defense with "there are naked men too" is why you got so much backlash and eventually probated.
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Mar 26, 2022 17:03
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Mayveena posted:I will talk with Magnetic North to add that posting about KDM or other titty mini games is not welcome in this thread. I'm new. I had no idea KDM is verboten. I did not realize there were literal unwritten rules, after I read the entire rules posts so I could participate in good faith. That's a trap I'd probably eventually stumble into, as I love classic sword & sorcery games (got a huge Franzetta print in my office). Any rule as hard as 'no titty mini games' absolutely needs to be communicated, and more importantly not enforced until such time. If it that's important, it needs to be treated as such, which means it must be added to the rules. Hidden rules are cliquey gatekeeping bullshit I was glad to leave behind in middle school. It does not feel welcoming at all.
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Mar 26, 2022 17:05
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Slyphic posted:I'm new. I had no idea KDM is verboten. I did not realize there were literal unwritten rules, after I read the entire rules posts so I could participate in good faith. That's a trap I'd probably eventually stumble into, as I love classic sword & sorcery games (got a huge Franzetta print in my office). Agreed which is why I'm asking for the change in the OP. And no from my point of view, there'll be plenty of warning if these games do come up in discussion. NOTING THAT, I'm not on here 24/7 and I do have some shell of a life outside this thread so things can happen before I'm aware of them. Honestly yeah I could consider not having the rule but I also want to respect the folks that have made this thread what it is, and titty mini games are simply too divisive. Maybe someone will start a tabletop mini's thread where they'd be a better fit.
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Mar 26, 2022 17:10
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FirstAidKite posted:Oh wow. I looked it up and it really does just include fire emblem in its name and description and character designs and names are taken whole cloth. How the hell did they get away with selling it? Nintendo's lawyers are super trigger happy so I'm surprised that something so brazen is being sold without getting taken down. Exactly. I have no idea how it managed to get by, but I'm glad I have it. The production is great.
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Mar 26, 2022 17:10
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The problem is the problem of every single thread, to be honest. There are topics in every single thread in SA which have been litigated and relitigated over and over again, so people that are regular to the thread get bored of talking about them, but also don't want to just ignore it if they think it is an actual problem that needs to be talked about. Also, KDM discussion has not been banned in any iteration of the thread, and what we are currently disccusing is a potential thread ban on discussing the game. The problem with KDM in my mind is that even if the sexualised violence is not as strong in the commercial product, it is still present and the company have made money by selling actual explicit sexualised violence, even as part of the KS that originally launched KDM. This is part of why the "oh, the game itself is not that bad" is not really a strong argument for me.
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Mar 26, 2022 17:12
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Slyphic posted:I'm new. I had no idea KDM is verboten. I did not realize there were literal unwritten rules, after I read the entire rules posts so I could participate in good faith. That's a trap I'd probably eventually stumble into, as I love classic sword & sorcery games (got a huge Franzetta print in my office). to be clear, no one has ever been probed just for mentioning titty minis and the only "trap" is that saying you like them will cause 1d6 posters to say "I don't like titty minis", forcing a save vs. disapproval to avoid an embarrassing meltdown defending titty minis.
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Mar 26, 2022 17:12
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the mini unspiration thread is where you can post about titty minis, in more of a laugh and eyeroll at how lame they are way, than a posting very seriously about how unacceptable it is kind of way
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Mar 26, 2022 17:13
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the holy poopacy posted:Saying there's an issue with swords & sorcery is disingenuous. People are talking about Mage Knight on this very page, which is extremely swords & sorcery. For such a dry crunchy game it's very evocative, it does an excellent job of replicating the feeling of conaning across the board alternately saving the day and beating people up for their loot (to the point that my main obstacle getting it to the table isn't the formidable set up or play time, it's that my wife doesn't like to get into that headspace and wants to play something more unambiguously heroic.) It does all this without any sexualized violence and not a whole lot of sexualization in general; there's a sorceress in a skimpy sorceress dress, but it's like maybe a 3/10 on the scale of oversexualized fantasy art. i'm saying there ISN'T an issue with sword & sorcery in general here. like i wouldn't assume i'd get tuned up for bringing up the old vallejo "worlds of boris vallejo" game that is just his paintings on lovely cardstock, and because it's like the exact same kind of art content, i didn't assume that would happen for kdm. FirstAidKite posted:If you just left it at "kdm has bad art, I enjoy playing the game but I won't deny or defend the problematic elements" then I don't think there would have been much pushback. Instead you denied those elements altogether and argued that people were just being prudes about it. The denial and piss poor defense with "there are naked men too" is why you got so much backlash and eventually probated. i like old school fantasy art, and i don't really have an issue with the aspects of sword and sorcery art that are hyper violent or hyper sexual. they really are both fundamental aspects of the genre. like i just don't think it's "bad art" there is a lot of room for discussion around objectification of people in fantasy art and how both the naked men and women are basically reflective of male power fantasy, but like it's not as simple as "titty bad" and when folks just post in hyperbole it's exhausting. Mayveena posted:Part of that is because board games have had an iffy history for marginalized people. Many people in this thread care dearly about Black people and other people of color, about the LGBTQ community, about women. So games that trot out the old memes regarding how marginalized people are shown will generate a strong reaction. Other traditional games such as chess, tabletop games or magic the gathering don't have those histories. I'm not here to change that reaction, especially because I'm a Black woman and support marginalized people. I hope however to move toward more tolerance, less personal criticism and attacks and more education so that folks can understand why many of us think the way we do. We do need to turn down the volume so to speak so that rational voices can be heard. I would like to see us move away from 'my way or the highway' to 'this is why titty mini games (as an example) are disturbing to me'. i'm a communist and i care deeply about those things too. i'm also a fan of vintage pulp, sword & sorcery, conan, etc and i think there's room for discussion around the troubling elements of those genres without completely writing them off as entirely racist or bad or whatever. robert e howard's work has lots of troubling elements that are reflective of the time period, but it's not hateful, and i think there's still room to enjoy that kind of stuff with an informed perspective.
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Mar 26, 2022 17:19
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jarofpiss posted:i'm saying there ISN'T an issue with sword & sorcery in general here. like i wouldn't assume i'd get tuned up for bringing up the old vallejo "worlds of boris vallejo" game that is just his paintings on lovely cardstock, and because it's like the exact same kind of art content, i didn't assume that would happen for kdm. There is plenty of room for discussion of those issues. However discussing them in this thread given the backdrop of racism, sexism and LGBTQ hate that we have seen both in the games and people who play the games is not going to be productive.
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Mar 26, 2022 17:30
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jarofpiss posted:i'm saying there ISN'T an issue with sword & sorcery in general here. like i wouldn't assume i'd get tuned up for bringing up the old vallejo "worlds of boris vallejo" game that is just his paintings on lovely cardstock, and because it's like the exact same kind of art content, i didn't assume that would happen for kdm. my bad, I thought you were drawing a line around this thread and saying "the rest of tg tolerates s&s but not the boardgames thread", not "tg including this thread tolerates most s&s but not kdm". jarofpiss posted:i like old school fantasy art, and i don't really have an issue with the aspects of sword and sorcery art that are hyper violent or hyper sexual. they really are both fundamental aspects of the genre. like i just don't think it's "bad art" if it's exhausting when folks post in hyperbole then stop doing it  I would argue that most of the posters itt have a more nuanced view of the subject than the one you are putting forth. I doubt anyone bitching about kdm has an issue with, say, the comic Oglaf, despite Oglaf being vastly more explicitly sexualized (which is saying a lot.) reducing the arguments against kdm's art to "titty bad" is not doing you any favors. jarofpiss posted:i'm a communist and i care deeply about those things too. i'm also a fan of vintage pulp, sword & sorcery, conan, etc and i think there's room for discussion around the troubling elements of those genres without completely writing them off as entirely racist or bad or whatever. robert e howard's work has lots of troubling elements that are reflective of the time period, but it's not hateful, and i think there's still room to enjoy that kind of stuff with an informed perspective. I think most people itt would agree with you here, even as it relates to kdm. but if you're going to "enjoy that kind of stuff with an informed perspective", something which plenty of other posters have done w/r/t kingdom death monster with relatively little issue, you can't flip out when people get skeeved out by it.
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Mar 26, 2022 17:31
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the holy poopacy posted:to be clear, no one has ever been probed just for mentioning titty minis and the only "trap" is that saying you like them will cause 1d6 posters to say "I don't like titty minis", forcing a save vs. disapproval to avoid an embarrassing meltdown defending titty minis. i don't think people said "i don't like titty minis" i think people characterized kdm as being an anime rape game (which i would not play) and that rubbed me the wrong way (because i bought the game and was enjoying it) and i called everyone prudes there's an implication you're making about the people that have bought kdm if you're going to paint it as a hentai vore game and that's just not accurate. like i'm not going to call everyone that likes the lovecraft mythos a racist just because hp lovecraft was one
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Mar 26, 2022 17:32
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the holy poopacy posted:I think most people itt would agree with you here, even as it relates to kdm. but if you're going to "enjoy that kind of stuff with an informed perspective", something which plenty of other posters have done w/r/t kingdom death monster with relatively little issue, you can't flip out when people get skeeved out by it. people were immediately saying "enjoy your anime rape game" and that came out of left field for me so i was honor bound to continue kicking the hornets nest i just discovered. Mayveena posted:There is plenty of room for discussion of those issues. However discussing them in this thread given the backdrop of racism, sexism and LGBTQ hate that we have seen both in the games and people who play the games is not going to be productive. i'm not trying to make y'all relitigate kdm right now i'm just trying to offer my perspective as a non-pervert outsider. i think you get what i'm saying and i just saw that there had been a kickstarter meltdown in the last few pages and thought it would be appropriate to start another one about the thread culture in general. i'd just suggest that if you have hard boundaries around topics that thread regulars are tired of covering, that those be clearly communicated
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Mar 26, 2022 17:39
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Given that the product-line does indeed include anime rape minis, even if the main game itself does not use them, is probably why people are calling it an anime rape game.
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Mar 26, 2022 17:41
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Terrible Opinions posted:Given that the product-line does indeed include anime rape minis, even if the main game itself does not use them, is probably why people are calling it an anime rape game. it seems you are much more immersed in the kdm scene than i am so i'll defer to your expertise is anyone interested in seeing a let's play of this old gem? 
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Mar 26, 2022 17:53
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jarofpiss posted:it seems you are much more immersed in the kdm scene than i am so i'll defer to your expertise  " post, nice
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Mar 26, 2022 17:55
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Terrible Opinions posted:Given that the product-line does indeed include anime rape minis, even if the main game itself does not use them, is probably why people are calling it an anime rape game. Please all, stop with the KDM discussion. It riles folks and we’re right back where we started.
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Mar 26, 2022 18:08
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Tekopo posted:lmao, the "eh, I think you are the pervert i moved on from kdm about two months ago but the board game thread has gone in my book of grudges and i will never forget this past holiday season. board game related: i'm working on a whfrp 2e overland map from the border princes book. i'm going to run a zero-titty warhammer quest 1995 campaign on it so maybe i'll update the thread, but i don't think there's much interest in vintage board games on TG from what i've picked up so far
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Mar 26, 2022 18:09
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Hey jar why don’t you start a miniatures thread? Seriously there are a lot people who play them, especially if you also include historical war games that are miniature games. I don’t own any, otherwise I’d start it.
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Mar 26, 2022 18:11
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Jarofpiss appears to be arguing in bad faith but there is unfortunately a tiny nugget of a point in there. This thread has of very strong perspectives on topics and discussion that ranges from newbie board gamer discussion to very deep mechanics or theme discussion. Magnetic North put together a very curated newbie friendly op but the discussion on most pages is by people that have been in hobby a decade and are very knowledgeable about all the politics around it and specific good/bad games and (not even oversexualized ones.) I can see how some of the discussion could be very offputting for someone newer to the thread. I think there’s a point to letting people discuss Kickstarter, bad games, etc. without the thread dogpiling them but there’s a very clear line on that discussion which ends at discussion of overtly exploitative poo poo or similar matter that is clearly racist/sexist/etc. Edit: editing it remove references to how verboten topic.
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Mar 26, 2022 18:14
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Mayveena posted:Hey jar why don’t you start a miniatures thread? Seriously there are a lot people who play them, especially if you also include historical war games that are miniature games. I don’t own any, otherwise I’d start it. i started a vintage thread a few months back after they shut down the collector's subforum but it didn't really get much interest. i specifically collect dungeon crawls and that seems to be the one genre that misses the miniature/wargaming people, the board game people, and the rpg people. a shame really because the dungeon crawl board game is the best of all worlds.
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Mar 26, 2022 18:14
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Lawlicaust posted:Jarofpiss appears to be arguing in bad faith but there is unfortunately a tiny nugget of a point in there. This thread has of very strong perspectives on topics and discussion that ranges from newbie board gamer discussion to very deep mechanics or theme discussion. Magnetic North put together a very curated newbie friendly op but the discussion on most pages is by people that have been in hobby a decade and are very knowledgeable about all the politics around it and specific good/bad games and (not even oversexualized ones.) maybe in opposite world
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Mar 26, 2022 18:16
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jarofpiss posted:i moved on from kdm about two months ago but the board game thread has gone in my book of grudges and i will never forget this past holiday season.
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Mar 26, 2022 18:16
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Tekopo posted:Outright making it explicit that you are posting in bad faith is not usually a good idea. no i mean everything i said i just don't want people to think i'm specifically trying to die on the kdm hill, the game is not that important to me. it's not about that game. it's about already litgated general attitudes, that i wasn't expecting, about what is appropriate content (that i didn't know about and still don't agree with), and weren't communicated anywhere. and this horse is thoroughly beaten
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Mar 26, 2022 18:22
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people are going to act like my problem is I don't want people to say anime because I have an anime avatar or whatever, since this is something awful... but I think this combination of words down plays the severity and comes across as dismissive.
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Mar 26, 2022 18:23
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Folks please use the report function as needed as I don’t always catch nuance. To me jar seems to be in navigation mode but if others disagree let me know and I’ll consider your point.
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Mar 26, 2022 18:23
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jarofpiss posted:I don't think there's much interest in vintage board games on TG from what i've picked up so far I've been playing a lot of OGRE lately with my kid. Those rules are virtually unchanged since they were published in '77. Now, whether it's a boardgame, a hex'n'chit wargame, or a miniature game is open to debate. Ditto for Triplanetary('73), which I've got a game planned with some greybeards I met a recent con in a couple weeks. Oh, and Circus Maximus('79), that gets semi-regular play in my area. Hardly anything more than 20 years old sees the light of day, and with good reason. My mother got it in her head that I collect old board games, and she loves to browse flea markets and second hand stores, and she routinely brings me old games for my 'collection'. 99% of the time I pick out a few components and bin the rest. She's brought me 4 copies of Rail Baron('77) to date. I actually tried playing it the second time, but it's just a worse version of any of a dozen modern takes on the same concept.
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Mar 26, 2022 18:26
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We’ll I’m getting ready for my board game so y’all take care ok? Be good, do good and all that poo poo❤️
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Mar 26, 2022 18:27
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jarofpiss posted:no i mean everything i said i just don't want people to think i'm specifically trying to die on the kdm hill, the game is not that important to me. Lawlicaust posted:Jarofpiss appears to be arguing in bad faith but there is unfortunately a tiny nugget of a point in there. This thread has of very strong perspectives on topics and discussion that ranges from newbie board gamer discussion to very deep mechanics or theme discussion. Magnetic North put together a very curated newbie friendly op but the discussion on most pages is by people that have been in hobby a decade and are very knowledgeable about all the politics around it and specific good/bad games and (not even oversexualized ones.) Thread wants to position itself as "inclusion and acceptance", just so long as it's an "approved" game/publisher/source/retailer/whatever. New people going to come in, excited about some game they backed on Kickstarter or because they saw people playing Kingdom Death at game night, only to have goons just poo poo all over them over ~blockchain~ or whatever, and make them wonder what's going on with board game people. OP also suggests 7 Wonders (which has a "slave market" card that gives you culture points), and Great Western Trail (which has Natives that steal your poo poo). Sure, 10 years later they shipped a "second edition" with revisions those elements, but when TableTop Simulator is like "hey, there was a problem with a mod yesterday and we fixed it", this thread is like "yeah, well gently caress them anyway for doing that thing once". Tiny Epic Dungeons had the "butt art" early on and that was a now-forgotten scandal (why didn't the thread boycott "Tiny Epic" and remove it from the OP?). But when Kickstarter mentions "blockchain" in passing (with no further development, to my knowledge), and their CEO leaves, but the thread is still on this anti-Kickstarter crusade. PRADA SLUT fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Mar 26, 2022 |
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Mar 26, 2022 19:14
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I finally received the Marauder expansion for Root, played badgers vs rats in a 2P game. Hirelings work as intended and it was a much more interesting experience than my previous 2P games. It goes without saying the meeples are as adorable as ever 
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Mar 26, 2022 19:19
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PRADA SLUT posted:but when TableTop Simulator is like "hey, there was a problem with a mod yesterday and we fixed it", this thread is like "yeah, well gently caress them anyway for doing that thing once". Not getting involved in the rest of this, but TabletopSim didn't fix poo poo - they threw some money at a good cause and then shut the gently caress up to let things blow over.
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Mar 26, 2022 19:19
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JoeRules posted:Not getting involved in the rest of this, but TabletopSim didn't fix poo poo - they threw some money at a good cause and then shut the gently caress up to let things blow over. I actually haven't followed anything since they made a company clarification LGBT support and booted the mod. What's transpired since then? e: And not whether or not people "believe" them, I assume they're acting in good faith, like I assume 7 Wonders removing the Slave Market is in good faith and not some secret capitalist scheme to.. sell more copies of one of the most popular games ever made? PRADA SLUT fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Mar 26, 2022 |
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Mar 26, 2022 19:24
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The following has been added to the OPs at the request of the moderation team.Magnetic North posted:Kingdom Death: Monster Later on, today or tomorrow, I will put more background information about the game itself, why it's popular, the claims that it portrays sexual violence, and why there is a vociferous pushback to those allegations. The OP needs is here to be as a resource to new people coming to the thread so they can be better informed, but this apparently cannot wait the time it will take me to write all that while I gently caress up my google search history by googling "death monster wet nurse". The KDM discussion is over. That includes the prevaricating and equivocation branching off from it.
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Mar 26, 2022 19:30
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PRADA SLUT posted:I actually haven't followed anything since they made a company clarification LGBT support and booted the mod. What's transpired since then? Nothing substantial since then, but you're making it sound like they took swift action and booted the mod - what happened was more like - initial claims made - Berserk defends mod - more receipts shown - Berserk defends mod again - Backlash starts to take hold - Berserk says we're working on this - Mod steps down, not booted - Nazi crew shows up on Steam buying the game, leaving hate speech in positive reviews, and stirring poo poo on the TTS discord - Berserk announces donation and a LGBT+ community spotlight - Yet another mod does something stupid and says "mods deserve that money, not the charity" and gets booted - Berserk shuts the gently caress up and does nothing else Even with no pre-game public chat lobby, the public parts (in-game chat and their official Discord) are significantly more toxic now than before, which is saying something considering how bad it was before, all because Berserk sat on their thumbs while poo poo people multiplied and decent ones bailed. edit: I'll be clear, I'm not saying don't buy/play TTS - my stance is gently caress Berserk, buy any keys from black market sites so Berserk ain't getting paid, and don't watch any streams/streamers that use TTS. JoeRules fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Mar 26, 2022 |
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Mar 26, 2022 19:33
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Magnetic North posted:The following has been added to the OPs at the request of the moderation team. should probably add letters from whitechapel and anything slaanesh related while we're at it?
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Mar 26, 2022 19:41
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jarofpiss posted:should probably add letters from whitechapel and anything slaanesh related while we're at it? C'mon, man.
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Mar 26, 2022 19:47
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jarofpiss posted:should probably add letters from whitechapel and anything slaanesh related while we're at it? 
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Mar 26, 2022 19:51
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Slyphic posted:I've been playing a lot of OGRE lately with my kid. Those rules are virtually unchanged since they were published in '77. Now, whether it's a boardgame, a hex'n'chit wargame, or a miniature game is open to debate. Ditto for Triplanetary('73), which I've got a game planned with some greybeards I met a recent con in a couple weeks. Oh, and Circus Maximus('79), that gets semi-regular play in my area. Hardly anything more than 20 years old sees the light of day, and with good reason. im about to pick up a copy of barbarian prince when i stop buying mtg bullshit and really dig into the late 70s/early 80s gaming. really proof that you can still have fun (sort of) with the densest rules and worst components. forget kickstarter imo.
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Mar 26, 2022 19:52
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i don't know what prevaricating and equivocation mean but ill actualyl stop now
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Mar 26, 2022 19:57
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I both Three Kingdoms Redux since it's surprisingly cheap to import it to Canada. Guess we got a good conversion rates between Canadian and Singaporean dollars right now! I'd never heard of it before so thank you thread for making me lose more money!
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Mar 26, 2022 20:07
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The Berserk thing is just such an insane own-goal because there was literally no reason for that to have a global chat in the first place.JoeRules posted:and don't watch any streams/streamers that use TTS. Come on, this seems a bit absurd. I don't even watch board game streams but TTS is an amazingly powerful tool for e.g. prototyping new stuff, and I'd assume a LOT of people who are invested enough in the hobby to stream bought it looooong before any of these allegations came out.
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Mar 26, 2022 20:24
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