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As someone who doesn't understand anything about modern military: does such a strike make sense to be made by helicopters and not bombers or something? It's quite a distance to be made with noisy, relatively slow vehicles, no?
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Apr 1, 2022 09:44
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Average Lettuce posted:As someone who doesn't understand anything about modern military: does such a strike make sense to be made by helicopters and not bombers or something? It's quite a distance to be made with noisy, relatively slow vehicles, no? Bombers would have to fly at a much higher altitude to drop the bombs, making themselves easy targets. The helicopters were able to fly low enough to get under the radar.
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Apr 1, 2022 09:46
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Average Lettuce posted:As someone who doesn't understand anything about modern military: does such a strike make sense to be made by helicopters and not bombers or something? It's quite a distance to be made with noisy, relatively slow vehicles, no? Helicopters are better at staying under radar because they are more maneuverable. The only other way to hit it would be with a terrain following cruise missile.
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Apr 1, 2022 09:49
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dr_rat posted:I mean Russia was meant to have a shitload of very decent AA systems, so it should of been less easy and more suicidal. They would have to have some stellar intelligence on AA coverage and russin interceptor capability, which really only an advanced western intelligence service of some sort would have. But really, it boils down to qui bono. Who does this attack help the most? That's who did it. And I'm pretty sure destroying russian infrastructure and fuel supply ability when the russian army is suffering from fuel shortages helps Ukraine more than Russia. And the fuel depot wasn't empty judging by the massive explosion and subsequent fire.
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Apr 1, 2022 09:50
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fuctifino posted:Bombers would have to fly at a much higher altitude to drop the bombs, making themselves easy targets. The helicopters were able to fly low enough to get under the radar. gay picnic defence posted:Helicopters are better at staying under radar because they are more maneuverable. The only other way to hit it would be with a terrain following cruise missile. Thanks for the answers! But still... they would have to be pretty confident that no resistance would be met until they reached the city (and no one would try to intercept them when they returned).
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Apr 1, 2022 09:51
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fuctifino posted:Bombers would have to fly at a much higher altitude to drop the bombs, making themselves easy targets. The helicopters were able to fly low enough to get under the radar. Reminds me of the missions on Jane's Longbow Gold. Slipping behind enemy lines at night flying NOE to strike valuable targets is kinda exactly what you would use attack helicopters for. Yes I am that old and nerdy.
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Apr 1, 2022 09:53
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Nice piece of fish posted:They would have to have some stellar intelligence on AA coverage and russin interceptor capability, which really only an advanced western intelligence service of some sort would have. We do not know how many of such operations have failed. Could be that UA just finally got through. The assumption ITT seems to be that since this is the only such attack we know about and it got through, the UA success rate is 100% and Russian AA sucks. For the alternate theory - from the vids it looks like the first chopper missiles were not effective - no explosions followed. Theoretically it was used to blow up the empty containers and the second chopper then followed to blow the filled ones to create the fire.
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Apr 1, 2022 09:54
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a podcast for cats posted:A propos of PR and public sentiment in Russia, this thread stood out a bit. Reposting the retweet for credibility, as Max Seddon usually is good on info:
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Apr 1, 2022 09:55
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So, liveuamap shows me that the Ukrainian Army took control of Ivankiv to the northwest of Kyiv 2 hours ago. If true, doesn't that cut the major artery to NW Kyiv from the russians? Have they evacuated that far, is this just a false report, or are the russians still present in NW Kyiv hosed?
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Apr 1, 2022 09:56
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Comedy Options. Some enterprising Ukranian farmers just decided to up their game, found two Russian choppers with the keys in the ignition or whatever and took it for a joyride to blow up some stuff while Ukranian military command was 'huh, we didn't give any order'? Feel good action flick of the year 'Sunflower Oil Burns Hot'
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Apr 1, 2022 09:57
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Average Lettuce posted:Thanks for the answers! But still... they would have to be pretty confident that no resistance would be met until they reached the city (and no one would try to intercept them when they returned). Helicopters flying that low are hard to hit with anything much. By the time a guy with a MANPADS has a chance to grab the missile, aim, get a lock and fire the chopper is probably behind the next hill and out of sight. AA guns rely on the crews being alert and ready to fire too. Larger SAM systems have a very hard time hitting anything that low - if you're flying below the radar they can't track you and guide a missile onto you. An aircraft might spot you but that's unlikely at night and you'd be hard to pick up amongst the ground clutter on the radar.
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Apr 1, 2022 10:00
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Dwesa posted:Sounds like a lot of denial. I would like to know the mood outside of 2 big cities, it's easier to be in denial when you're not receiving zinc coffins (yet). Well there's a whole lot of tweets from people in Belgorod confused as to where Ukraine got helicopters since they were told all the helicopters were destroyed in the first 6 hours of the invasion, and how exactly they managed to pull off the attack without getting shot down, so I would say they probably aren't getting great info either. There's a lot of rumors floating around a Russian withdrawal to the northwest of Kiev, but the extent of it is getting reported a lot of different ways. https://twitter.com/guyelster/status/1509812323678142465
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Apr 1, 2022 10:00
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Nice piece of fish posted:But really, it boils down to qui bono. Who does this attack help the most? That's who did it. Personal pet peeve time: it's spelled "cui" bono because you're using the dative case in this grammatical structure
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Apr 1, 2022 10:00
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https://twitter.com/wwwproektmedia/status/1509814391260299270?t=4gY5b4RkJWv5pKgbvwYLJw&s=19 Proekt media who broke a lot of stories about Putin and his inner circle last year with another story about the health of Dear Leader or should we say Deer Leader quote:In spring, Altai red deer horns, or antlers, grow at an enormous rate of several centimeters a day. At this moment the antlers are not yet ossified, they are soft and full of blood. Extract from these horns is said to have a therapeutic effect (people supposedly benefit from antler baths), so there is a whole industry for the extraction of pantocrine . For this purpose, red deer are tied or clamped on a special machine, lifted so that they hang helplessly, and the living horns are cut off — often with an ordinary hacksaw. Animal rights activists compare the experience of animals to the torture of pulling out a person’s fingernails. Mainly the article points to the medical personnel following Putin and his interest in thyroid cancer treatments.
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Apr 1, 2022 10:03
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Kuule hain nussivan posted:So, liveuamap shows me that the Ukrainian Army took control of Ivankiv to the northwest of Kyiv 2 hours ago. If true, doesn't that cut the major artery to NW Kyiv from the russians? Have they evacuated that far, is this just a false report, or are the russians still present in NW Kyiv hosed? Taking that town would be massive as it's got the only bridge across the Teteriv River and that's the only way into that Kyiv pocket unless Russia has placed additional crossings at other points along the river. I guess we'll have to wait and see if that info is accurate.
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Apr 1, 2022 10:06
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Deltasquid posted:Personal pet peeve time: it's spelled "cui" bono because you're using the dative case in this grammatical structure Yeah but qui walks around knowing that?
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Apr 1, 2022 10:07
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This video appears to be from outside of Ivankiv, although exactly when is up for debate, since this guy isn't super reliable. If it is from today, it looks like Russians were/are still there as of filming, but had a bad day. There's some dead soldiers and the guys driving the car get shot at as they drive by and yell that russia sucks dick. https://twitter.com/JulianRoepcke/status/1509814564069818375
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Apr 1, 2022 10:12
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Shogeton posted:Comedy Options. Some enterprising Ukranian farmers just decided to up their game, found two Russian choppers with the keys in the ignition or whatever and took it for a joyride to blow up some stuff while Ukranian military command was 'huh, we didn't give any order'? They heard the term "tank farm" and their eyes lit up.
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Apr 1, 2022 10:16
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If this was really Ukrainian helicopters, what would surprise me more than the actual attack is that Ukraine not only still has working helicopters, in range, but also facilities to maintain, fuel, and arm them, and is capable to plan these missions and can let these helicopters take off and, hopefully, land again safely. Crazy.
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Apr 1, 2022 10:26
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https://twitter.com/jason_corcoran/status/1509824725303934976 Asking Russian elites to pinky promise not to make it look like they're breaking sanctions, then having it immediately posted on supposedly banned Instagram is just lol. Edit- assuming Liza litwin is Russian, idk who that is...
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Apr 1, 2022 10:32
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https://twitter.com/ThomasVLinge/status/1509823443721674756
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Apr 1, 2022 10:33
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Nenonen posted:But do we know the source? How do you know that it's in Belgorod? There's so much to be skeptical of here. This one seems very easy to geolocate. Videos show large high voltage power pylons near the oil tanks, several tweets also show a trio of red and white smokestacks in the foreground. https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1509757841338511390?s=20&t=QtDiBsbQIHe1dIMqjyFsSg I found a large tank farm near large power pylons very quickly just by scrolling around Belgorod on google maps. https://www.google.com/maps/@50.5927886,36.6686695,996m/data=!3m1!1e3 Red: Tank farm Blue: power plant(?) with three red and white smokestacks in same configuration as in the picture. Black: HV power line.  There's nothing on the FIRES web-site, but that only updates twice daily, and the tweets are 4-5 hours old at this point. So that would be something to watch, if a detected fire shows up here in a few hours. https://firms.modaps.eosdis.nasa.gov/map/#t:adv;d:2022-04-01;@36.7,50.6,14z To me at least this looks very clear. 
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Apr 1, 2022 10:34
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uXs posted:If this was really Ukrainian helicopters, what would surprise me more than the actual attack is that Ukraine not only still has working helicopters, in range, but also facilities to maintain, fuel, and arm them, and is capable to plan these missions and can let these helicopters take off and, hopefully, land again safely. Crazy. Ukraine has been making great use of attack helicopters the whole war. Back when Russia was sending columns to outflank Kyiv from the west, the Ukrainians would use drones or guys in ambush with Stugnas or Javelins to take out the AA vehicles in those convoys, and when they were sure there was no AA left, they'd send the helis to clean up. Same happened to the convoy that pushed north past Mykolaiv. The news is that Ukraine is confortable enough in their situation to risk sending the helis east, instead of keeping them all operating west of Dnipro.
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Apr 1, 2022 10:48
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Dwesa posted:Sounds like a lot of denial. I would like to know the mood outside of 2 big cities, it's easier to be in denial when you're not receiving zinc coffins (yet).
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Apr 1, 2022 10:54
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To be fair though propaganda is one hell of a drug. Look how badly it effected the US post 9/11 for a long while. No population is immune to it unfortunately. It is drat depressing watching another bunch of people fall for it though.
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Apr 1, 2022 10:58
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It's times like this ongoing debate about the helicopter attack that I wish I was good enough at Photoshop to redo the Death Star trench run scene as attack helicopters versus Shills turrets
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Apr 1, 2022 11:19
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PC LOAD LETTER posted:To be fair though propaganda is one hell of a drug.
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Apr 1, 2022 11:24
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Herstory Begins Now posted:A huge russian fuel depot 15 miles across the border from one of the single hottest parts of the conflict getting rocketed is just about the least improbable thing that has happened in this entire conflict. That's close enough that this strike could have been carried out with normal heavy artillery, and there is pretty much nothing you can do against artillery fire, besides not be at the target area. Its also within the area, where forward recon usually operates. Maybe Ukrainian army recon found out that Russia has jack poo poo for air defense or air surveillance between the Ukraine border and Belgorod, especially if you use copters and fly low, instead of take a jet fighter?
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Apr 1, 2022 11:34
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a podcast for cats posted:A propos of PR and public sentiment in Russia, this thread stood out a bit. Reposting the retweet for credibility, as Max Seddon usually is good on info: Oh... they've got to the "it'll all be over by Christmas" stage of the conflict. 
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Apr 1, 2022 11:35
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https://twitter.com/ua_industrial/status/1509836235115749384 Don't try this at home kids. (it's probably save if you know that the mine doesn't have an anti-handling system but there is also the off chance that they are not well maintained and just go randomly off)
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Apr 1, 2022 11:51
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Just Another Lurker posted:Oh... they've got to the "it'll all be over by Christmas" stage of the conflict. By Christmas. Ukrainian tractors will be leaving with the Kremlin and that church tower thing.
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Apr 1, 2022 11:56
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Meanwhile in the UK, the government is focused on the important things - the spoils of war. https://twitter.com/guardiannews/status/1509730022378164225
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Apr 1, 2022 12:02
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GaussianCopula posted:https://twitter.com/ua_industrial/status/1509836235115749384 Isn't that the same road from where that was the video of cars driving over mines? Looks like the same spot I think.
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Apr 1, 2022 12:06
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fuctifino posted:Meanwhile in the UK, the government is focused on the important things - the spoils of war. I think you got April Foolsed quote:The case prompted the Conservative MP and former submariner Shiv R M’Timbers to suggest this was exactly the sort of super yacht that could be used by Buckingham Palace.
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Apr 1, 2022 12:10
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NO gently caress YOU DAD posted:I don't understand why people are freaking out about the Ukrainians hitting an oil depot when they've already struck inside Russia and even already struck Belgorod. Is it because it's an oil depot and not a strictly military facility? Since the start of this some people seem to have immediately chosen their sides for whatever reason, like this is the superbowl or something. The pro-russian people have spent over a month on this goalpost moving running retreat to where we are at the point that the most recent of several attacks inside Russia by Ukraine must be fake because Russia is so strong this couldn't even happen accidentally. Ukraine is so defeated they couldn't do this intentionally. The only thing that makes sense, if you assume Russia is unbeatable, is that it was a false flag. Russia is so amazing and competent they expertly attacked themselves as part of a masterclass hidden plan we can only glimpse the edges of. Grasp at straws for a few minutes and you arrive at something that sounds plausible within that framework: Putin wants to turn the public's opinion to a fervor in support of a War instead of a mostly neutral position on a "special operation." Other highlights of this same phenomenon - A strange stream of extreme Russian casualties since Day 1 is just half the story, Ukraine has similar or more losses The West is hiding from you - Kiev was surrounded and starving four weeks ago when people were shopping and commuting to work on livestreams. - Ukraine officially had no remaining army five weeks ago because some guns had been handed out to citizens. - The boat that plainly exploded on video and is now a wreck visible from space was a gentle sinking expertly conducted to put out a fire - The cities Russia can't take with full on assaults are not taken by choice, based on 60 year old textbooks Russia's strategy is to surround a city and wait therefore was no assault - Russia halting the usage of most precision munitions has to be a choice because they can't be out of them for unspecified reasons. - Russia has ten of thousand tanks and airplanes on paper so if they aren't using them they aren't serious yet and they can always use them. It's just math apparently. - Russia losing thousands of vehicles and tens of thousands of soldiers on the most broadcast war in human history actually didn't happen. It was all a clever feint maneuver that contradicts literally everything we've seen and everything Russia has done - As there has not been a singular "BATTLE OF KYIV" like World War 2 involving 2000 tanks then Russia can not have sustained heavy losses as there were no major engagements in which to sustain them - Russian losses are within Russian Doctrine. If you don't believe this you Don't Understand War. Conflicts have Losses. Russia was always going to have losses. You Fool. Assuming Russia had 100% fully staffed and armed battlegroups Oryx is showing 25% losses but we can find several mistakes with Oryx's numbers and they are Pro-Ukrainian so they can now be ignored. - After suffering what is apparently now no losses Russia abandoning it's nationwide assault was just according to Keikaku. A masterful redeployment for it's true target as it removes it's weighted invasion and begins powering up. It isn't really about the facts involved so trying to dissect why they are saying this stuff logically isn't going to get you anywhere. They just need to believe certain things in certain ways because otherwise Russia looks bad. Not only is it unhinged it's disgusting but it will at least make an interesting study in the role of the internet in modern warfare and how groups of people cluster together to crowdsource comforting narratives while ignoring uncomfortable reality. If there is a decisive Russian rout that fucks them up entirely then the conversation will shift to an more mythical and impossible to defeat ideal of "Russia." Putin was dragged behind a lada in moscow? Well this just clears the way for The One True Russia. They can rebuild unencumbered now. Russia will only become stronger. It can never lose.
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Apr 1, 2022 12:20
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Pookah posted:I think you got April Foolsed How did I not see that? How did I not realise what day it was today? I am so ashamed....
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Apr 1, 2022 12:21
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fuctifino posted:Meanwhile in the UK, the government is focused on the important things - the spoils of war. lmao
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Apr 1, 2022 12:23
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fuctifino posted:How did I not see that? I was 100% convinced til I got to that bit tbh .Its the kind of weird/shady/RAH RAH ROYALS! poo poo I expect from the tories, plus I wouldn't have thought the Guardian would be so tasteless as to crack lame jokes about stuff to do with the loving horrible war in Ukraine. edit: Just saw the author's name: Mari Tyme Pookah fucked around with this message at 12:29 on Apr 1, 2022 |
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Apr 1, 2022 12:24
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Rectal Death Adept posted:Since the start of this some people seem to have immediately chosen their sides for whatever reason, like this is the superbowl or something. Okay, but the UA Army General Staff claims to have no knowledge of this attack. https://twitter.com/JulianRoepcke/s...ebbb87c347f%2F0 It is confusing to me too, because I do not see the benefit gained by Russia in attacking their own oil storage facility and blaming it on Ukraine, but there you have it... But honestly, I have been trying to figure out how two helicopters crossed so far into Russian airspace, how dangerous that was, and how much easier it would have been to hit that target with a ballistic missile or drone. ZombieLenin fucked around with this message at 12:28 on Apr 1, 2022 |
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Apr 1, 2022 12:25
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ZombieLenin posted:Okay, but the UA Army General Staff claims to have no knowledge of this attack. Individual ukrainian units probably have a lot of independence, and, you know, OPSEC. There's clear video from multiple angles so we know it really happened and was helicopters. We know it wasn't Russia because Russia would've attacked a hospital or school or something if they wanted to false-flag. My best guess is two ukrainian helicopter pilots got a little drunk and dared each other into a mini doolittle raid and then they got lucky and caught russian air defense with their pants down, possibly because the russians assumed they were returning Russian pilots or because they flew low enough to not get detected or both.
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Apr 1, 2022 12:28
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