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CharlestheHammer posted:That and yeah you die you die because you suck. So it’s your own fault that you can improve. Not really, it's more like how in Spec Ops the Line; you're told one narrative only to have been doing a completely different narrative without realizing it the whole time. The difference being of course as the Sovereign you know, infallible flawed humans you have implementing your will are going to either work against you or are corrupt so you have options in how to look out for it. Hellioning posted:Except you'll know that your information is going to be bad. So why would you keep expanding based on information you know will be wrong? Because pretty borders? This isn't a very good reply because more broadly its asking why do any task that at a glance looks unrewarding? At the end of the day its about power. And increasing your accumulation of power because power equals power and just like zillionaires who keep accumulating money despite all of the costs and problems because they just want more money you as the player want more power. Eiba posted:You can have a corruption mechanic be a generic penalty, not a complex system that fucks over inexperience players while being a trivial annoyance to those who understand what's going on. I think there's a bit of an overemphasis on phrasing it as the game "lying to you", although this is a mechanic that has already long been a part of paradox games including Victoria; many games only gave a vague estimate "3?" for the number of divisions in a province on your border until you actually fought back in Hearts of Iron 2 (Heck in Victoria 2 your very income especially in multiplayer isn't accurate!). Perhaps you could view it more along those lines, as uncertainty except it doesn't just apply to your adversaries, but also to you. You think you've produced between 350 to 500 It's a bit more interesting that instead of a negative modifier "You have -10% fire damage" instead its "You have somewhere between 8 to 12 fire damage dice for this regiment because the Colonel is lying about how many men he actually has" is much more interesting problem for the player to solve. I also disagree with the point you're making there, rulers historically have "accounted for and bypassed" corruption in their nations/courts all the time, but in the real world its resolved through an intricate web of court/palace intrigue and political games. There's definitely been times in history a ruler/general has thought "I requested 30,000 men knowing I'd only get 10,000", I definitely feel like I've heard of such situations occurring. Part of the problem is some posters are kinda assuming the worst possible interpretation of such a system and it isn't really a fair assessment to say its just inherently bad game design for a 4X style/grand strategy game because of that interpretation when there's already a decent number of engaging strategy games that have such features already, to one degree or another.
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Apr 4, 2022 20:54
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Raenir Salazar posted:Because pretty borders? This isn't a very good reply because more broadly its asking why do any task that at a glance looks unrewarding? At the end of the day its about power. And increasing your accumulation of power because power equals power and just like zillionaires who keep accumulating money despite all of the costs and problems because they just want more money you as the player want more power. If you're getting more power than numbers randomly being wrong doesn't actually effect anything and it's just an annoyance.
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Apr 4, 2022 21:02
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Did Wiz every confirm that the Victoria's Secret personal troll project he was doing was in fact the start of Victoria 3? If so, it's been in development for way too long and I demand it's release.
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Apr 4, 2022 21:10
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Mantis42 posted:then why did you turn war into two buttons Good thing the game is about the context, and your army is dependent on a very complicated set of domestic policies and the context of the fighting is dependent on complicated series of diplomatic plays. Waiting until the arrows go gray before clicking on a little man is not all that much more compelling than just having a stop and go button in the grand scheme of things. Raenir Salazar posted:It's a bit more interesting that instead of a negative modifier "You have -10% fire damage" instead its "You have somewhere between 8 to 12 fire damage dice for this regiment because the Colonel is lying about how many men he actually has" is much more interesting problem for the player to solve. If it's really random then 8 to 12 may as well be represented by the average and they should throw a dice roll in there. That's not really hidden information, it's just randomness. Which is fine and already in the game presumably. Having corruption increase the variance in your dice rolls would be... fine? Not really changing things up in any fundamental way though. If it's simulating something specific going on, and a player can account for various factors and figure out the actual number if they're good at the game, then all it is is yet another advantage for people who have an encyclopedic knowledge of game systems, without really representing anything interesting. Putting everything in terms of "90-110 tanks" and things like that doesn't add anything to the game except to clutter up the interface and make it more confusing to read. Fundamentally, if your obfuscation can be "solved", it's bad because it's punishing new players. If it can't be "solved" then it might as well be a randomize.
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Apr 4, 2022 21:19
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Raenir Salazar posted:Not really, it's more like how in Spec Ops the Line; you're told one narrative only to have been doing a completely different narrative without realizing it the whole time. The difference being of course as the Sovereign you know, infallible flawed humans you have implementing your will are going to either work against you or are corrupt so you have options in how to look out for it. i mean this works because it's a narrative, particularly a linear one about specific characters; not a sandbox strategy game
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Apr 4, 2022 21:25
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poker is random factors + hidden information + trying to figure out the degree to which the signals you receive are real. it's wild to see people making sweeping claims about the only way a game can work, and doubly wild to see it in this thread, about a game that will definitely have perfect information anyway!
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Apr 4, 2022 21:26
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Poker is literally gambling.
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Apr 4, 2022 21:27
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i think the problem here is that a game has to be more designed around imperfect information than just not giving it to you. for example, the card game Netrunner was originally designed by richard garfield after he got on a poker binge and decided magic didn't have enough bluffing, and the guesswork of trying to figure out your opponent's capabilities is really fun and interesting. but it wouldnt work if you just said "okay we're gonna play magic the gathering but play all the cards facedown"
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Apr 4, 2022 21:31
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Eiba posted:If you had two identical armies in a featureless plain, two buttons would be pretty unfun. Not saying that is the correct way to implement it, just that randomness needs iterations/time to average out, something you might not have. Which made me think of EU4 battles, where you could end up getting destroyed because your opponent just managed to beat you on every roll. At least the corruption mechanic would have the randomness tied to actual issues the player has some control over, rather than pure chance. CharlestheHammer posted:Poker is literally gambling.
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Apr 4, 2022 21:38
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CharlestheHammer posted:Poker is literally gambling. Gambling games are fun, like Mahjong. They have both imperfect information and strategy to them. Eiba posted:If you had two identical armies in a featureless plain, two buttons would be pretty unfun. As a simplified example (in which I borrow from many different games), you solve it by firing the "Colonel" and replacing them with someone who is nominally less corrupt; and the variance will based on tech and other modifiers be vastly constrained or will accurately reflect the actual underlying numbers; but firing the colonel might upset some of your generals; which might, in an extreme case, prompt a army revolt. So its easier to do such corrective actions during a war where you have more emergence powers to make sweeping reforms due to necessity. These are of course temporary fixes because the problem being fixed once doesn't mean its gone forever, for as long as you remain an Empire there's going to be those on its periphery who seek to benefit themselves at the expense of the core. So in a way, think of it like in Crusader Kings; administrators, generals, governors, etc are Characters with Personalities/Tendencies and Needs/Ambitions and no matter the autocracy or liberal the democracy, politics is eternal. "90 to 110 tanks" is just an example; the idea is there's going to be variances throughout your empire depending on a variety of factors. Maybe it's just "90 Tanks?" The point is, you the player know that this number might not be accurate. So there should be some amount of consideration in your appointments of officials that this number could be wildly inaccurate if things get sufficiently corrupt; and you will likely know things are pretty bad because ideally there are other indicators (peasant revolts due to crushing taxation and famines because of corruption made worse by bad weather etc). So you get an "oh poo poo" moment when you finally do manage to crack down on corruption only to realize half of your army is missing! Much like running out of beer in Dwarf Fortress so you immediately start throwing things around to get things fixed before anyone notices (and everyone else has the same issues, no one really knows how strong anyone else is, which works out beautifully). But by being careful and maybe taking some hits in political capital or by reforming your government to be more meritocratic and democratic, i.e freedom of press, its easier to keep a lid on corruption so that doesn't happen. Sacrificing the quality of your army in order to enrich yourself has happened many times in history; and it could be interesting to put the player in a position where even though objectively there's a correct decision, but in the moment they have many compelling reasons to steal all the motor fuel and share the profits with their family. The point is it is never permanently solved (again think back to CK), because its a grand strategy game simulating Empire; their problems are never solved, only the can kicked down the road. And the point of people suggesting such mechanics is to better represent and balance the game around the actual challenges of Empires. RP'ing as Justinian picking the right people to carry out your will. StashAugustine posted:i mean this works because it's a narrative, particularly a linear one about specific characters; not a sandbox strategy game I think maybe there's a difference in opinion here but I absolutely see paradox games as narrative adventures; 'sandbox strategy game' described what you do, but doesn't wholly reflect the genre. StashAugustine posted:i think the problem here is that a game has to be more designed around imperfect information than just not giving it to you. for example, the card game Netrunner was originally designed by richard garfield after he got on a poker binge and decided magic didn't have enough bluffing, and the guesswork of trying to figure out your opponent's capabilities is really fun and interesting. but it wouldnt work if you just said "okay we're gonna play magic the gathering but play all the cards facedown" I agree with this. Hellioning posted:If you're getting more power than numbers randomly being wrong doesn't actually effect anything and it's just an annoyance. I don't think this is true but it also kinda isn't really responding to what's being said. As an example lets look at the Solarian League in the Honor Harrington books; Sol has a massive military and economy compared to all the other powers (sounds familiar); much greater than all of them combined. But they're also IIRC hilarious corrupt and they can't actually project that power effectively. It's possible to be too big to fail in a way. It isn't really an "annoyance" because if you're so big then you probably don't care that the numbers aren't "right", they're potentially still too big to matter relative to what you're facing (until the British arrive anyways with vastly more advanced weapons!).
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Apr 4, 2022 23:04
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Mantis42 posted:then why did you turn war into two buttons We replaced unit micro with a focus on strategic warfare and emphasising diplomacy and preparation because it makes the game more enjoyable.
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Apr 4, 2022 23:33
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poker is fundamentally nothing like Victoria 3 and I think most of the folks here wanting hidden or obfuscated info actually really just want to feel smart memorizing obfuscation patterns to just.. play the same game anyway lol comparing poker to what you want vicky 3 to be like is pretty funny but next time rope Putin into it to earn my love
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Apr 4, 2022 23:58
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Lady Radia posted:comparing poker to what you want vicky 3 to be like is pretty funny but next time rope Putin into it to earn my love What if putin was in that painting of dogs playing poker and that was Victoria 3
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Apr 5, 2022 00:00
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Snooze Cruise posted:What if putin was in that painting of dogs playing poker and that was Victoria 3 Now your just making a political cartoon
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Apr 5, 2022 00:04
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people like x so it should be in the game is the kind of sage advice you could only get on SA
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Apr 5, 2022 00:20
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Lady Radia posted:poker is fundamentally nothing like Victoria 3 and I think most of the folks here wanting hidden or obfuscated info actually really just want to feel smart memorizing obfuscation patterns to just.. play the same game anyway lol that's really not what people are saying they want and the post you're replying to also said that this has nothing to do with vicky, c'mon now
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Apr 5, 2022 00:41
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Though that is a problem with obscure data, it can only stay obscure for so long. Eventually you will figure it out and you end up in the same place
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Apr 5, 2022 01:15
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I look forward to puttering about in my nation garden and making the good numbers big
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Apr 5, 2022 02:18
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CharlestheHammer posted:Though that is a problem with obscure data, it can only stay obscure for so long. there's only 52 cards, how hard could solving it be
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Apr 5, 2022 02:58
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Poker is a game built entirely around not having perfect information. Victoria isn't.
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Apr 5, 2022 03:35
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poker is obviously the wrong game to base vicky 3 on. it should be blackjack
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Apr 5, 2022 04:11
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baccarat because it's european and no one understands it
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Apr 5, 2022 04:15
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They say like "bucco de beppo" and poo poo. I've seen some Bond. I'm pretty much an expert
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Apr 5, 2022 04:16
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You're also not playing a government or a leader in Victoria 3, you're playing the country and the country knows its stats. If you want to simulate the government or leaders not having perfect information that can be abstracted away with character bonuses.
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Apr 5, 2022 04:46
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I do like the way Paradox games have sometimes tried to express unreliable information: "We know they have 2 carriers, and we guess they have 4 battleships..." But it's hard to see how this could work for all kinds of intel reports.
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Apr 5, 2022 05:23
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Raenir Salazar posted:As a simplified example (in which I borrow from many different games), you solve it by firing the "Colonel" and replacing them with someone who is nominally less corrupt; and the variance will based on tech and other modifiers be vastly constrained or will accurately reflect the actual underlying numbers; but firing the colonel might upset some of your generals; which might, in an extreme case, prompt a army revolt. So its easier to do such corrective actions during a war where you have more emergence powers to make sweeping reforms due to necessity. These are of course temporary fixes because the problem being fixed once doesn't mean its gone forever, for as long as you remain an Empire there's going to be those on its periphery who seek to benefit themselves at the expense of the core. You're writing a lot of words in support of complex systems, but nothing here seems actually enhanced by imperfect information.
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Apr 5, 2022 05:26
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Cease to Hope posted:there's only 52 cards, how hard could solving it be Set a timer to count down 52! seconds (that’s 8.0658×1067 seconds) Stand on the equator, and take a step forward every billion years When you’ve circled the earth once, take a drop of water from the Pacific Ocean, and keep going When the Pacific Ocean is empty, lay a sheet of paper down, refill the ocean and carry on. When your stack of paper reaches the sun, take a look at the timer. The 3 left-most digits won’t have changed. 8.063×1067 seconds left to go. You have to repeat the whole process 1000 times to get 1/3 of the way through that time. 5.385×1067 seconds left to go. So to kill that time you try something else. Shuffle a deck of cards, deal yourself 5 cards every billion years Each time you get a royal flush, buy a lottery ticket Each time that ticket wins the jackpot, throw a grain of sand in the grand canyon When the grand canyon’s full, take 1oz of rock off Mount Everest, empty the canyon and carry on. When Everest has been leveled, check the timer. There’s barely any change. 5.364×1067 seconds left. You’d have to repeat this process 256 times to have run out the timer.
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Apr 5, 2022 10:13
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you have correctly identified the joke, yes
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Apr 5, 2022 10:16
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Time to get your votes in: https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/1511331292733923332 e: feel free to speculate on what this teaser drought could imply ThaumPenguin fucked around with this message at 14:18 on Apr 5, 2022 |
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Apr 5, 2022 14:14
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ThaumPenguin posted:Time to get your votes in: Doesn't really imply anything, I'm just putting that time into the AAR instead.
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Apr 5, 2022 14:20
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Wiz posted:Doesn't REaLly imply anything, I'm just putting that time into thE AAR inStEad. 
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Apr 5, 2022 14:23
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ThaumPenguin posted:Time to get your votes in: wiz lp's are back baby woooo
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Apr 5, 2022 14:41
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Cant wait to read your upcoming Vicky 3 Crete AAR wiz
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Apr 5, 2022 15:37
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Wiz posted:Doesn't really imply anything, I'm just putting that time into the AAR instead. Makes sense!
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Apr 5, 2022 18:26
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ThaumPenguin posted:Time to get your votes in: Mexico: So far from God, so close to the United States!
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Apr 5, 2022 18:50
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no twitter so i will also say mexico here
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Apr 5, 2022 18:55
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I want Siam because I want to see how Unrecognized states work but that does not appear to be happening.
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Apr 5, 2022 19:09
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Reading this thread makes me want to boof sand. Has there been a dev diary on client states/spheres? I’m curious how nations essentially make puppets/economic vassals out of other countries.
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Apr 5, 2022 22:12
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SnoochtotheNooch posted:Reading this thread makes me want to boof sand. https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/dev-diary-37-market-expansion.1514692/
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Apr 5, 2022 23:39
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Looks like it's gonna be ottoman, which is another interesting one.
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Apr 5, 2022 23:45
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