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NikkolasKing posted:Yeah everything I've read in oWoD is about the sterility of being a vampire. It makes sense, this is post-Rice Vampire and Rice's Vampires are all about the existential horror of being a timeless entity through the ages. I do wonder what WoD would be like if they went with more modern Rice, with the bird aliens and cloned Atlantean androids and such.
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Apr 7, 2022 12:50
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Not to mention it's hard to square with amnesia being a fundamental characteristic of older vampires, in the nWoD's case. The two are almost mutually exclusive. I drat near did a spit take when, after all the bitching about VtR's Sleep of Ages, I came across V5's bit about vampires needing to spend vitae to get their brain to remember certain stuff that happened in the past.
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Apr 7, 2022 13:09
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Ferrinus posted:CoD had to do away with the text about vampires being fundamentally static (and instead, iirc, talking about how vampires will tend to evolve and adapt to their current social context through basically blood osmosis) because it's never been true or believable, and I'm talking about both oWoD and nWoD here. Even setting aside such basic game mechanics as "spending experience points", the whole reason you had supremely evil ancients basically unrecognizable as the people they once were was precisely because vampires grew and changed, just pretty much never into anything good. Whenever you try to think hard about the actual details of mental or emotional stasis as intrinsic metaphysical qualities rather than tendencies and broad themes, and try to work out how they would play out in a story including characters who, like, learn things, it never really works out in a sensible or consistent way. Dude, old Boomers can't even figure out the internet. Imagine being 400 years old and having grown and lived your life when the height of technology was the printing press. It's pretty believable. I'm 40 and already starting to not really "get" a lot of modern musical trends, and have never been able to deal with Reddit's lovely interface because I'm just too used to old forums and poo poo. People get set in their ways, and it's the exception that people keep learning and adapting as they age. I'm a physician, you would be horrified to learn how many older surgeons basically haven't changed their techniques in the 30+ years since they trained, despite technological improvements. (Incidentally, this is why if you ever need surgery, find the people in their late 40s/early 50s who have stellar reviews from fellow colleagues, because they're the ones at their peak) Fuzz fucked around with this message at 13:50 on Apr 7, 2022 |
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Apr 7, 2022 13:45
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Fuzz posted:Dude, old Boomers can't even figure out the internet. Imagine being 400 years old and having grown and lived your life when the height of technology was the printing press. Yeah but then imagine if you can take a good nap and have some fever dreams that teach you about the current zeitgeist based on the people around you. Also ghouls are basically unpaid twitter interns \/\/\/blah, you're right i thought we were talking about cod my bad Soonmot fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Apr 7, 2022 |
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Apr 7, 2022 14:09
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Soonmot posted:Yeah but then imagine if you can take a good nap and have some fever dreams that teach you about the current zeitgeist based on the people around you. Also ghouls are basically unpaid twitter interns Yeah but this is oWoD we were talking about, not nWoD. The Requiem vampire would barely remember their childhood or human life by 500 years later, and could theoretically go into torpor and wake up a completely different person, oWoD vampires still retain a lot of their human lives since that's part of the identity they cling to to not undergo wassail.
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Apr 7, 2022 14:13
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Werewolf was always better because you can really embrace being the maniac that all PCs inevitably gravitate towards being.
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Apr 7, 2022 14:14
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citybeatnik posted:I drat near did a spit take when, after all the bitching about VtR's Sleep of Ages, I came across V5's bit about vampires needing to spend vitae to get their brain to remember certain stuff that happened in the past. To be fair, remembering stuff requrires energy for humans too.
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Apr 7, 2022 14:19
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Ferrinus posted:CoD had to do away with the text about vampires being fundamentally static (and instead, iirc, talking about how vampires will tend to evolve and adapt to their current social context through basically blood osmosis) because it's never been true or believable, and I'm talking about both oWoD and nWoD here. Even setting aside such basic game mechanics as "spending experience points", the whole reason you had supremely evil ancients basically unrecognizable as the people they once were was precisely because vampires grew and changed, just pretty much never into anything good. Whenever you try to think hard about the actual details of mental or emotional stasis as intrinsic metaphysical qualities rather than tendencies and broad themes, and try to work out how they would play out in a story including characters who, like, learn things, it never really works out in a sensible or consistent way. I feel like it doesn't have to be totally true to get the point across, it works even if it's just a sense that vampires have. Something vital is missing from oWoD and VTR1e vampires that has made immortality a faustian bargain and mortality enviable, and in CoD that's simply not in the text, so people act like the pathos actually is meant to be gone, thus superheroes with fangs. It sucks because CoD has my favorite mechanics, but it's impossible to find a game anyway so I guess it doesn't matter. 
worm girl fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Apr 7, 2022 |
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Apr 7, 2022 16:00
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worm girl posted:I feel like it doesn't have to be totally true to get the point across, it works even if it's just a sense that vampires have. Something vital is missing from oWoD and VTR1e vampires that has made immortality a faustian bargain and mortality enviable, and in CoD that's simply not in the text, so people act like the pathos actually is meant to be gone, thus superheroes with fangs. On one hand, this feels weird because VtR 2e is the edition that codifies how losing Humanity means you descend into being a weird predator in a human mask, and in general it sells that to a degree that 1e didn't until it had like eight books of warmup. On the other hand, that means that Humanity looks a lot more visceral than it did in previous editions, so I get how people would look at 2e and get scared and refuse to ever let their Humanity drop and lose connections. I don't agree that it's necessarily removing the emphasis on vampires as essentially static beings locked in their state at death that caused that, but I see where you're coming from.
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Apr 7, 2022 16:14
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Fuzz posted:Yeah but this is oWoD we were talking about, not nWoD. The Requiem vampire would barely remember their childhood or human life by 500 years later, and could theoretically go into torpor and wake up a completely different person, oWoD vampires still retain a lot of their human lives since that's part of the identity they cling to to not undergo wassail. i barely remember my childhood at 30
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Apr 7, 2022 16:40
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worm girl posted:
It works better with wtf, but since my players typically gravitate to creating queer anarchist collectives in their city, I just lean into it. How far will the players go to make their world a better place. What will they sacrifice? WHO will they sacrifice? Even action movies can have emotional stakes and, even better, when the horror elements do push through, they're all the more terrifying because of the previous tone.
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Apr 7, 2022 17:14
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ZearothK posted:i barely remember my childhood at 30 You and most people. I have a freakish memory that's actually very good, but even I have noticed that the vast majority of people aren't like me and don't have clear memories of multiple days of kindergarten or even preschool 40 years later. Some people will argue it makes no sense until they're blue in the face, though. Is it that they just can't empathize with others and see what aging is like for regular people, are they just too young to even comprehend that they'll lose the ability to adapt and get stuck in their ways, or is it just that they hate oWoD for whatever reasons and will blindly argue everything about it is bad. gently caress if I know, but regardless the constant incessant steam of negativity becomes super tiresome when people wanna just enjoy a thing they're enjoying. So yeah, play it however. In the grand scheme of things you can always adapt it to whatever you want and just have fun. Fuzz fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Apr 7, 2022 |
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Apr 7, 2022 19:25
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Lurks With Wolves posted:On one hand, this feels weird because VtR 2e is the edition that codifies how losing Humanity means you descend into being a weird predator in a human mask, and in general it sells that to a degree that 1e didn't until it had like eight books of warmup. On the other hand, that means that Humanity looks a lot more visceral than it did in previous editions, so I get how people would look at 2e and get scared and refuse to ever let their Humanity drop and lose connections. I don't agree that it's necessarily removing the emphasis on vampires as essentially static beings locked in their state at death that caused that, but I see where you're coming from. I think subtextually that's there, but overwhelmingly the players I run into insist that it is not in any way difficult for vampires to be altruistic and lead completely benign unlives where bad things only happen when Strix or whatever cause them to happen. If you search the entire book, you will find nothing about vampires being static anymore. I actually think the Strix might be part of the problem. The fact that they're not people like the Sabbat or the Brood were means that the players don't have to think about how the worst villains in the setting are just like them. You're always comfortably the lesser evil. Soonmot posted:It works better with wtf, but since my players typically gravitate to creating queer anarchist collectives in their city, I just lean into it. How far will the players go to make their world a better place. What will they sacrifice? WHO will they sacrifice? Even action movies can have emotional stakes and, even better, when the horror elements do push through, they're all the more terrifying because of the previous tone. Case in point. A queer anarchist collective is a nice thing that helpful humans put together IRL to lift each other up. It is really off-key for blood-drinking parasites to be doing this sort of thing unless it's a front for their feeding/politicking/Ordo medical experiments/Circle blood sacrifices, or they're being Carthians and starting with good intentions but falling prey to infighting or getting stomped by the Invictus. Obviously it's your table and you can run it how you want, but this is what I'm talking about when I say the CoD community seems to want to get away from the fact that they're playing as monsters who have to try very very hard to not be evil and shouldn't have much of a reason to do so. Queer liberation isn't really a concern when the all night society's pecking order is determined by brute force, deception, or at best votes between twenty or thirty vampires. The Lancaea encourages "sinful" behavior and none of the other covenants care about how gay anyone is because they're too busy filling bathtubs with human blood or trying to mind control the mafia. I don't really know why so much of the CoD community wants to run it this way. I know there was some signaling from the lead on it that they wanted to get away from some of the more problematic stuff, so maybe it attracted people who don't want to play characters that make them feel dirty or something. OWoD is way more popular and now that it has new editions it probably sucked up all the people who are in it for personal horror, but I never liked OWoD's over the top vibe. My ideal game is like, any of the fiction snippets from Mekhet: Shadows in the Dark. worm girl fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Apr 7, 2022 |
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Apr 7, 2022 19:51
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worm girl posted:I don't really know why the CoD community is like this. I know there was some signaling from the lead on it that they wanted to get away from some of the more problematic stuff, so maybe it attracted people who don't want to play characters that make them feel dirty or something. Somewhere along the way it went off the rails into power fantasy without repercussions, for sure. worm girl posted:OWoD is way more popular and now that it has new editions it probably sucked up all the people who are in it for personal horror, but I never liked OWoD's over the top vibe. My ideal game is like, any of the fiction snippets from Mekhet: Shadows in the Dark. Not to beat a drum, but you might actually like a lot of the current V5 since all that over the top poo poo being thrown in the backseat/out the window is a lot of what the fans hate about the new edition. Like, there are people that are aggressively UPSET there's no Elders soap opera going on between millennia old near gods about dumb petty poo poo or conversely the FATE OF THE ENTIRE WORLD. Let The Streets Run Red and Chicago Folios straight up outline chronicles set in small towns with low stakes and lots of personal horror and character exploration drama, because ultimately those are the main themes V5 is trying to be about, not Methuselahs wielding empires against each other while the PCs are...? Probably doing some minor bullshit.
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Apr 7, 2022 20:23
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Fuzz posted:Dude, old Boomers can't even figure out the internet. Imagine being 400 years old and having grown and lived your life when the height of technology was the printing press. Yep, and that's as a living human who has been around a few scant decades and who can properly engage with the world around them instead of having to live a secret and predatory existence for decades/centuries/millennia. 60 years is more than enough to get somebody stuck in their ways, now imagine 6,000 years. You've been around for almost as long as human civilization and history. We believe in the things we do because they are "ours" - religion, nation, family.... But a sufficiently advanced Kindred has seen the rise and fall of all of these staples that we use to define ourselves. Try to imagine a world before airplanes, vaccines or the internet. Impossible. Try to imagine a world before even the concept of nation-states or Christianity/Buddhism /Confucianism.. Even mere impossible. If the last few years of politics have taught me anything, it's how things like liberalism and capitalism are simply, mindlessly accepted as aspects of our lives which have "always been" and always must be because we're born into these structures and so were our grandparents. But a Kindred knows all this and has witnessed all this. They've seen everything in the world rise, fall, and fade away. Only they are still here, the same face, the same outlook, the same everything. Of course Cainites can still change. Last thing I was reading was Clanbook Cappadocians and Cappadocius certainly changed his mind a lot and in pretty significant ways. But did he ever really change as a person? I think that's what more modern vampire fiction is all about.
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Apr 7, 2022 20:25
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I feel like I sort of fell into the trap of trying to be too benevolent as a vampire during my current game. We're doing Early Modern Venice, and my character is an Invictus knight, basically under the delusion that he is an agent of vampiric restraint- to enforce the Masquerade is to keep the worst excesses of the All Night Society from happening. What fixed this for me was the constant compromise I had to make to keep the Invictus in power, and then, since I was a Daeva, taking Kiss of the Succubus, which makes any and all feeding have considerably more visible and destructive results. He's not capable of the restraint he thinks he enforces anymore, which I think is a good narrative path for this kind of vampire.
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Apr 7, 2022 20:34
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Fuzz posted:Somewhere along the way it went off the rails into power fantasy without repercussions, for sure. I've always felt like the grindhouse vibe in owod made it hard to connect with the characters. Like why should I be sad that I accidentally drained a guy when across the street a tzimisce is driving a car made out of ten unwillingly fleshwarped and still alive people to his mansion that is also made out of people? I will check out v5 but god drat if 2e didn't have the best rules I've ever seen. I played a 2e game as a ghoul where I wound up amassing quite a bit of influence with the vampire players because I could stop frenzies and give them huge buffs and swooning and stuff. They had a mechanical incentive to stick their necks out for my character and by extension her regnant despite the obvious power disparity, it was neat!
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Apr 7, 2022 20:38
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Fuzz posted:Dude, old Boomers can't even figure out the internet. Imagine being 400 years old and having grown and lived your life when the height of technology was the printing press. Okay, but that's not because old Boomers neurologically can't learn how to open a .pdf (in fact, many if not most of them can, and simply don't get billing because it's not as funny to read or post about). It's because they have some combination of power, leverage, and comfort such that no one can make them. Noticing that certain old people refuse to change their ways and springboarding off that to assume that there's something physically wrong with their brains such that they can't, ever is undialectical. As Tulip writes, vampires are also this way. Is a centuries-old ancient literally incapable of learning how to make a phone call because vampirism itself has frozen his brain and soul in stasis? No. Is there literally no one around who's powerful enough to force him to learn? Quite possibly. worm girl posted:I feel like it doesn't have to be totally true to get the point across, it works even if it's just a sense that vampires have. Something vital is missing from oWoD and VTR1e vampires that has made immortality a faustian bargain and mortality enviable, and in CoD that's simply not in the text, so people act like the pathos actually is meant to be gone, thus superheroes with fangs. I genuinely have no idea what you're talking about here. Perhaps I haven't re-read 2E recently enough, but while I don't like some of their Discipline rules or whatever the game is clearly still about losing your grip on humanity and degenerating into a monster.
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Apr 7, 2022 20:38
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Ferrinus posted:I genuinely have no idea what you're talking about here. Perhaps I haven't re-read 2E recently enough, but while I don't like some of their Discipline rules or whatever the game is clearly still about losing your grip on humanity and degenerating into a monster. I agree with you on paper and that's the game I want it to be, but try taking that to the CoD discord or reddit, you will get insane blowback.
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Apr 7, 2022 20:40
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worm girl posted:I agree with you on paper and that's the game I want it to be, but try taking that to the CoD discord or reddit, you will get insane blowback. I've never set foot in those, is everyone there, like, insistent that being a vampire kicks rear end actually and everyone should want to do it? I guess there's a sense in which they're right, but they could say the same thing about being a landlord.
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Apr 7, 2022 20:52
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worm girl posted:If you search the entire book, you will find nothing about vampires being static anymore. Well, yeah. Vampires can't be static and it's absurd to suggest that they would be. A static vampire would just die.
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Apr 7, 2022 20:53
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Ferrinus posted:I've never set foot in those, is everyone there, like, insistent that being a vampire kicks rear end actually and everyone should want to do it? There was a lot of "oh actually you can ethically acquire blood 100% of the time because blood dolls exist, and being a blood doll is perfectly fine and good," people trying to say that WoD monsters represent RL queer people and are unfairly villified (go off I guess but this doesn't seem like the game for it), and a lot of people saying you only lose humanity if you go out of your way to do bad things and only an evil person would do that so if you're not evil you won't become a monster. Those are all specific examples I saw, but the vibe was basically "vampires are normal people who consensually drink blood to get superpowers so they can fight the actual evil, which is other supernaturals." Someone actually said using violence or deception to get blood was a masquerade risk and blood dolls weren't, because they're your friends and that makes them loyal. It could be that the madness is confined to those two communities, but IDK where else you'd go to find a group for a game most people have moved on from.
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Apr 7, 2022 21:05
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I think there's room for interesting discussion there but I don't get why that's supposed to apply to Requiem 2E exclusively. You could as easily play an "ethical" vampire who just lives off two or three donors in VtR 1E or any edition of Masquerade. EDIT: I suppose the Coil of Blood makes this the absolute easiest in Requiem 1E. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Apr 7, 2022 |
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Apr 7, 2022 21:09
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Ferrinus posted:I think there's room for interesting discussion there but I don't get why that's supposed to apply to Requiem 2E exclusively. You could as easily play an "ethical" vampire who just lives off two or three donors in VtR 1E or any edition of Masquerade. I must stress extremely hard that I am not making the argument, I think the argument is stupid. I am lamenting the fact that the 2e community is dominated by this kind of thinking in a way the others aren't. I don't think the text explicitly supports the argument, but it does somewhat downplay negative aspects of vampirism in a way that seems to have contributed to this. Most vampires in any line probably start out trying to be nice, and many of them get away with it for long periods of time. The funny thing about living forever is that poo poo falls apart.
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Apr 7, 2022 21:14
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I mean, it's strictly true that a vampire is just a person with a particular set of disabilities (well, "disabilities" since that's ultimately a political category) and a just society would be one in which people with vampirism received the care they need without facing the opportunity or incentive to leverage their condition to nefarious ends. Unfortunately, we do not live in a just society.
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Apr 7, 2022 21:20
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worm girl posted:I agree with you on paper and that's the game I want it to be, but try taking that to the CoD discord or reddit, you will get insane blowback. Oh, right. I forgot that a lot of WoD communities are just kind of weird. (Like, I get how those communities got there after however many conversations about how to play vampires that aren't utter assholes, in their own relatively private areas. Just... I feel like a lot of people have missed a lot of points in the process.)
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Apr 7, 2022 21:42
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Lurks With Wolves posted:Oh, right. I forgot that a lot of WoD communities are just kind of weird. I guess it's better than the WH40K people who end up "ironically" supporting fascism?
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Apr 7, 2022 21:47
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Lurks With Wolves posted:Oh, right. I forgot that a lot of WoD communities are just kind of weird. I wouldn't really call the two largest active CoD communities their own private groups. There aren't a ton of alternatives I'm aware of.
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Apr 7, 2022 21:48
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Feels like it's part of a larger trend in RPG fandoms, where non-human species are stripped of their most monstrous or exotic traits in favor of being essentially humans with a few harmless quirks.
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Apr 7, 2022 21:49
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worm girl posted:I wouldn't really call the largest active CoD communities their own private groups. There aren't a ton of alternatives I'm aware of. One, I'm honestly using a very rough definition of private group which is broad enough that this thread counts as one. (And let's be honest, this community is like a tenth of the size of those communities, so I'm not sure what I'm getting at with that. Probably that literally every RPG discussion forum counts as a comparitvely small and private group compared to the soup that is social media and the vague communities within it? This was not my most thought out post.) Two, the point is that communities end up getting weird standards for things because of what the most active members end up focusing on. So really you'd only need a small power bloc of posters who enjoy vampires but want them to be softer and less immoral like YaketySass mentioned to end up coloring everyone's views on what Vampire is, the same way this thread has a lot of expectations about what Mage is because Ferrinus would not shut up about it four years ago.
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Apr 7, 2022 21:59
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I have still not shut up about it.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:08
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Fuzz posted:Somewhere along the way it went off the rails into power fantasy without repercussions, for sure. Lol at trying to make Masquerade about personal horror. It's really not good for that.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:11
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YaketySass posted:Feels like it's part of a larger trend in RPG fandoms, where non-human species are stripped of their most monstrous or exotic traits in favor of being essentially humans with a few harmless quirks. It does have that vibe. I'm willing to reimagine orcs if it makes nonwhite people feel more welcome at the table, but if someone looks at the vampire metaphor and feels called out by it, I don't think it's the vampire that needs to change. Lurks With Wolves posted:One, I'm honestly using a very rough definition of private group which is broad enough that this thread counts as one. (And let's be honest, this community is like a tenth of the size of those communities, so I'm not sure what I'm getting at with that. Probably that literally every RPG discussion forum counts as a comparitvely small and private group compared to the soup that is social media and the vague communities within it? This was not my most thought out post.) Fair. My point was simply that if you want a Chronicles game, I don't know where else you'd expect to find one these days if you didn't have a group already, so it may as well be that the whole playerbase is like that.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:28
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YaketySass posted:Feels like it's part of a larger trend in RPG fandoms, where non-human species are stripped of their most monstrous or exotic traits in favor of being essentially humans with a few harmless quirks. Ferrinus posted:I mean, it's strictly true that a vampire is just a person with a particular set of disabilities (well, "disabilities" since that's ultimately a political category) and a just society would be one in which people with vampirism received the care they need without facing the opportunity or incentive to leverage their condition to nefarious ends. Unfortunately, we do not live in a just society. I feel like these two things are intimately related. As in, I think that the reason for increased humanization of monsters is that people have a more mature vocabulary for discussing the ways in which "monstrous" attributes can be self-identified and sympathetic. Like just in the case of Bram Stoker's Dracula, you can see the "monstrousness" of Dracula as a matter of sexuality, gender, race, and Victorian notions of disease. If you carry the themes of Dracula into your future vampire media (which, pretty likely!) and you're queer or an immigrant or possess a disability that eugenicists pay particular attention to, those things that struck fear into certain audiences can become powerful elements of sympathy. That's just one instance. Frankenstein is an obvious an common one - even people not pluggedd into WOD or horror fandom at all look at that book through a modern lens and go "this really seems like a story about a lovely dad" (as are MANY of the following robot scifi books through today). Reading it as a story about social prejudice against the disabled and about irresponsible parenting is honestly easier to me than reading it as a story about a crazy badass monster. Part of this I think comes from backlash to Hays Code, which while it ended decades ago, continues to have a consistent effect on how queer people (especially queer men) are portrayed as necessarily threatening and predatory (yes that goes back far further than Hays Code, but Hays Code is a nice de jure example to point to and a good starting point for unspooling this). And on top of that in the case of WOD, people are being asked to identify with their PCs and it's a lot easier (and i think more fun) to do so when you like those PCs.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:39
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To be fair, Frankenstein was always a pretty nuanced novel compared to something like Dracula. The Monster is a victim in the novel, if not of bad das, then of the Enlightenment, the hubris of man, and the abuse of nature. It is the genesis of the kind of science fiction exemplified by Jurassic Park's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3j9muCo4o0 (That's the interpretation I've always favored, anyway. Big Romantic here)
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Apr 7, 2022 22:54
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NikkolasKing posted:To be fair, Frankenstein was always a pretty nuanced novel compared to something like Dracula. The Monster is a victim in the novel, if not of bad das, then of the Enlightenment, the hubris of man, and the abuse of nature. It is the genesis of the kind of science fiction exemplified by Jurassic Park's I mean, that was the point. Man attempts to play God and things Go Badly.
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Apr 7, 2022 23:08
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ZearothK posted:i barely remember my childhood at 30 most folks remember the story they've told themselves about their childhood rather than their childhood tbf
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Apr 7, 2022 23:27
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There Is No Ethical Feeding Under Capitalism. I mean, I *get* the whole horror aspect. I really do. Vampires are monsters. But you can pry my Narcosaint-in-the-making vampire out of my cold dead hands.
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Apr 8, 2022 00:13
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Monsters mostly just being people viewed from outside of some norm is an extremely old chestnut. That's true of most of the Greek myths, let alone modern fantasy.
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Apr 8, 2022 00:13
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I feel like even if the PCs manage to be these utopian vampires, Kindred society as described in either Vampire games are 100% monstrous.
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Apr 8, 2022 01:17
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