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Anyone here planning to go to a power plant in West Virginia and stop the coal from coming in? There's a safe area if you don't want to be arrested. Grant Town power plant
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Apr 7, 2022 20:18
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Eddy-Baby posted:Several hundred people have been blocking oil terminals in the UK since the start of the month. The strategy is to get the government to agree not to licence any more oil and gas projects by causing disruption to the fuel supply. It's based on a successful protest in 2000, where the discredited previous Labour government was brought to the negotiating table quickly by lorry drivers upset about increasing fuel taxes. Seems like a weird example of people doing something useful if it hasn't done anything useful yet, even if there's a good reason that's so, but good luck to them, of course. Please get back to the thread when they successfully get the government to agree to not license any more oil and gas projects. It would be nice to have good news for a change. Leon Sumbitches posted:Absolutely. There's absolutely people who make the decision to forgo surgery that almost certainly won't work and very likely might kill them because they'd rather die at home with their loved ones. That's not giving up; it's acknowledging a difficult reality. Sir Kodiak fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Apr 7, 2022 |
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Apr 7, 2022 20:39
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Slow News Day posted:
I only occasionally lurk in this thread, but I came by because I saw the Kurzgesagt video and I was curious to see what people here thought of it. The arguments made in this thread often are really tough to wrap my head around because I can't really pin down what posters think I should be feeling/doing. For example, I assume you think the Kurzgesagt video is an example of toxic optimism, but is ALL optimism toxic? I ask you because the part of your post that I quoted above really DOES seem like optimism to me - and honestly it seems like the exact type of optimism that the video is calling for.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:27
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Bucswabe posted:I only occasionally lurk in this thread, but I came by because I saw the Kurzgesagt video and I was curious to see what people here thought of it. I'm also kind of unsure what people mean when they denounce "toxic optimism". I've been accused of pushing "toxic optimism" a few times in this thread, and all I encourage people to do is 1) hold some hope that we can change the future for the better and 2) please, please, please get involved with climate / enviro groups and lend your time and energy to helping make that happen.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:34
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Leon Sumbitches posted:Absolutely. In many cases, it would mean just that. We all die at some point, it's an inevitability. Sacrificing your remaining time & quality of life for a hail Mary cancer treatment may not be the best use of those resources
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Apr 7, 2022 23:41
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Bucswabe posted:I only occasionally lurk in this thread, but I came by because I saw the Kurzgesagt video and I was curious to see what people here thought of it. you could go to the other thread where the video was broken down and why it was deemed bad. I'm not getting into a contest over one thread being good or bad here either, simply stating the other thread has more informed posters explaining why it's not great.
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Apr 8, 2022 01:01
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Bucswabe posted:I only occasionally lurk in this thread, but I came by because I saw the Kurzgesagt video and I was curious to see what people here thought of it. I haven't watched the video, so I can't comment on it. To me, toxic optimism is the belief that no matter how terrible a situation is, it is always better to try as hard as possible to maintain a positive mindset, try to look at things on the bright side, balance the bad with the good, and so on. It's a deeply pathological form of optimism that avoids, ignores or outright rejects the aspects of reality that are difficult or impossible to deal with, and instead opts for the easier and more convenient path of assuming things will somehow work out in the end no matter what happens. It's the delusional belief that even if the possible outcomes may have varying degrees of terribleness, the cosmos must undoubtedly have its finger on the scale to favor the better ones. There is nothing wrong with coping mechanisms in and of themselves, of course — everyone needs them to varying extents to deal with grief, disappointment, anger, depression... essentially, to get through life. The issue is that the people who exhibit toxic optimism never admit — to others, or to themselves — that the attitude they have wrapped themselves in is simply an armor against inconvenient facts and negative emotions. They instead try to invent objective reasons for why the way they view the situation is actually the most rational/effective/productive one. A common sentiment expressed in this thread is, "you won't act if you give in to hopelessness!" Such attempts to shame and guilt others for having come to accept reality as is (which, contrary to repeated claims, says nothing whatsoever about whether they have been taking action) are a big part of what makes the attitude harmful to everyone involved. It's essentially a really lovely form of gaslighting. Being an optimist and having hope are good things, so long as one is realistic about the scope. That scope should track closely with one's own level of control over and ability to shape their surroundings. For example, I believe humanity as a whole is hosed. Our trajectory is not set in stone but we're very much like the Titanic shortly before its fateful collusion; our societies and economies collectively have too much inertia and aren't changing course nearly fast enough (some are standing still or even moving in the opposite direction!), and there's no reason to believe that will change. However, I simultaneously think that I can at least have a real positive effect in my own community and on my loved ones to reduce that level of hosed-ness, by preventing, mitigating or at least postponing the worst outcomes (e.g. disaster preparedness to save lives). Signs of toxic optimism include: - Avoiding painful emotions, rather than making the effort to work through and deal with them - Shaming others for not having a positive attitude (e.g. calling people "doomers") - Feeling guilty about being sad, depressed, angry - Minimizing other people's feelings because they make you uncomfortable - Being dishonest about how you really feel
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Apr 8, 2022 04:25
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Slow News Day posted:
Thank you for this earnest response. I'm in no position to debate anyone on this topic, nor could I think to label or judge anyone for their perspectives on it I really appreciate the explanation, and it helps me understand the discourse in this thread and elsewhere. I will keep it in mind moving forward if I engage in this type of discussion in the future.
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Apr 8, 2022 05:11
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And stuff like this is why I don’t think things will actually get better. https://twitter.com/ClimateHuman/status/1512304189258436617?s=20&t=W6w4avpJC1id5VobKgTkMQ
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Apr 8, 2022 10:59
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LionArcher posted:And stuff like this is why I don’t think things will actually get better. Maybe not, but that guy is fighting like hell anyway. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/06/climate-scientists-are-desperate-were-crying-begging-and-getting-arrested
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Apr 8, 2022 12:22
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Slow News Day posted:I haven't watched the video, so I can't comment on it. This is one hell of a good post.
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Apr 8, 2022 13:17
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The most important aspect is understanding what kinds of things you can do effectively and what effectiveness even means. Bailing on the titanic is not productive, helping small children onto lifeboats is. Spamming constantly about hope doesn't actually contribute to any discussion of that. Avshalom is doing incredible work with local ecosystems and we can all be inspired by her example Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 13:37 on Apr 8, 2022 |
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Apr 8, 2022 13:19
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LionArcher posted:And stuff like this is why I don’t think things will actually get better. Strong disagree. Climate change is frequently in mainstream news and people do pay attention. It polls well when people are asked "Does climate change concern you?" even in conservative States that have a strong oil and gas industry. It's a still a problem because it is legitimately a difficult problem to solve that'll take place over decades. With or without a sensationalist media.
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Apr 8, 2022 16:01
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Do you have any response at all to the actual things being said by the climate scientist about how the media is ignoring a specific climate science related protest by climate scientists or the opinion of climate scientists who felt it was necessary to do this? You seem to have hand waved it all away.
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Apr 8, 2022 16:09
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Strong disagree. If anyone wants more examples of toxic optimism you can click the ? icon by this poster's name.
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Apr 8, 2022 16:20
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Slow News Day posted:Signs of toxic optimism include: Thanks for posting this, it helps clarify why folks have called me a toxic optimist. It seems that mainly it's that people feel their feelings are being minimized. I think it's a function of people being in different places on the steps of the stages of grief. Some thoughts. quote:- Avoiding painful emotions, rather than making the effort to work through and deal with them quote:- Shaming others for not having a positive attitude (e.g. calling people "doomers") quote:- Feeling guilty about being sad, depressed, angry quote:- Minimizing other people's feelings because they make you uncomfortable quote:- Being dishonest about how you really feel Thank you for clarifying your thoughts and feelings!
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Apr 8, 2022 16:26
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:If anyone wants more examples of toxic optimism you can click the ? icon by this poster's name. Y'know what? No. You either debate and discuss this on the merits or you stop pretending you have anything to actually discuss or debate. Handwaving away discussion as "Toxic Optimism" or even on the other hand "Toxic Doomerism" isn't helpful. And especially do NOT target or slander other posters.
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Apr 8, 2022 16:27
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What merits?
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Apr 8, 2022 16:48
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Harold Fjord posted:What merits? If your counter is "Well you just have toxic optimism/doomerism" then you are not debating or discussing, you are handwaving. If you see no merits to debate on, then you don't have to engage at all. But shutting down discussion by calling it toxic so that you don't have to even address it is not useful, even more if you openly then say "Well this poster is toxic" and then refuse to engage. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Apr 8, 2022 |
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Apr 8, 2022 16:58
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How are u posted:I understand wanting to roll around in the hopelessness and doom, I truly do. I was there just a few years ago. It was really bad for me and really bad for people around me. Making the concious choice to allow yourself to live with a sliver of hope is a good thing, and does good things for your life. I choose to face the future with the attitude of "well the future looks bleak, and it's an incredible uphill battle against the excesses of capitalism and human greed, but maybe we *can* win and mitigate the worst of what may come and build a better world." I look at it like everything is completely hosed and there is no hope. Luckily I have no children or I would probably die of sadness thinking about the hell world I brought them into.
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Apr 8, 2022 17:07
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RC Cola posted:I look at it like everything is completely hosed and there is no hope. More likely you'd just get on with things tbh. I have nieces and nephews and it makes me sad sometimes but also I'm glad they're alive so whatcha gonna do 
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Apr 8, 2022 17:10
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Failed Imagineer posted:More likely you'd just get on with things tbh. I love my nieces and nephews and keep explaining to them that acab even paw patrol
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Apr 8, 2022 17:24
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Slow News Day posted:- Shaming others for not having a positive attitude (e.g. calling people "doomers") How are u posted:I definitely don't want to ever shame anybody for not having a positive attitude. What I do try to gently and politely push back on is people who say "nothing can be done, we're doomed". Slow News Day posted:- Minimizing other people's feelings because they make you uncomfortable How are u posted:This is, I think, kind of an interesting one to read. If by 'minimizing' you mean telling people who say "we're doomed" that "no, we're not doomed", well, I don't do that because I'm feeling uncomfortable. I do it because it isn't true. Slow News Day posted:- Being dishonest about how you really feel How are u posted:Now this one I can't get behind. This is entirely a judgement on your part about how other people "really" feel. You can't just tell people that you know how they really feel, and that they're tricking themselves about how they think they feel. That's just ridiculous on its face. I don't want to make this too much about you, HRU. I think you're a fine person. But the trajectory you've followed over the past couple of years is a perfect example of toxic optimism. Two and a half years ago, in this very thread, you posted this:  Seven months later:  You went from feeling depressed, to forcing yourself to be an optimist because you got "tired of being a doomer". That's the opposite of "working through your emotions with thoughtfulness and intentionality", as you put it, and the very definition of toxic positivity. It's the belief that one can simply flip a switch and start feeling differently, and as you may know, is an extremely unhealthy way of dealing with depression, or really, any negative emotion. The attitude also takes other forms, such as "happiness is a choice!" or "you may not be able to control what happens, but you can control how you respond to it!" And it's just... bad. It's bad when you force it on yourself, and it's bad when you shove it upon others. It's what I meant in my last bullet point about being dishonest about how you really feel. Specifically, it is being dishonest to yourself. Knowing your posting history, it is clear to me that your gentle and pushbacks on people who post bad climate news are just a facade. The only reason I don't call it gaslighting is because I don't think you do it intentionally. But it still aggravates people.
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Apr 8, 2022 17:28
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Failed Imagineer posted:More likely you'd just get on with things tbh. As my partner and I have debated having a kid of our own over the past few years, I have definitely come to understand that the people I know who do have kids do indeed "just get on with things". The kid isn't going away or won't stop needing your full and complete support as a parent, no matter what happens in the world. It's kind of wild to me that I'm actually on the fence about having a kid these days compared to a decade ago where it was 100% absolutely not, never in this hell-world-doom-future. I think that says a lot about how the global and national urgency around climate change and willingness to do things have improved over that time. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 8, 2022 17:31
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Slow News Day posted:You went from feeling depressed, to forcing yourself to be an optimist because you got "tired of being a doomer". That's the opposite of "working through your emotions with thoughtfulness and intentionality", as you put it, and the very definition of toxic positivity. It's the belief that one can simply flip a switch and start feeling differently, and as you may know, is an extremely unhealthy way of dealing with depression, or really, any negative emotion. The attitude also takes other forms, such as "happiness is a choice!" or "you may not be able to control what happens, but you can control how you respond to it!" And it's just... bad. It's bad when you force it on yourself, and it's bad when you shove it upon others. Disagree. Choosing to allow myself some hope was the key to confronting the awful depression and doom, and to work through those feelings. I haven't bottled them up, I have moved through them. They still exist, but I can handle them much, much better than I used to. My life has improved immensely since those posts. Therapy has also been a big part of that. Please don't tell people you know how they really feel. You don't, and you cannot.
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Apr 8, 2022 17:36
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CommieGIR posted:Y'know what? No. You either debate and discuss this on the merits or you stop pretending you have anything to actually discuss or debate. Handwaving away discussion as "Toxic Optimism" or even on the other hand "Toxic Doomerism" isn't helpful. I've already debated and discussed plenty here. You can click the ? icon by my name to find out more. If you read through the posts you'll probably see why I quit responding to the "merits" of posters like Crosby B. Alfred; I can only put up with this exercise in the bullshit asymmetry principle for so long. Under your ruling, I'll get tired of responding eventually and they'll get to spew their bullshit unchecked. That's why this thread sits mostly idle now, punctuated by an occasional article post with followup by soothsayers claiming that cornpone polling results about climate change attitudes indicate that there's still hope. I'd probably let this go otherwise, but you're up this page calling someone a nihilist, questioning their mental health, and calling their acceptance of grief a "Joker-ification" after posting this mod warning. Should we quit pretending there's any debate going on here and close this thread forever? At least it'll be one less avenue of bullshit that way.
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Apr 8, 2022 17:44
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How are u posted:Disagree. Choosing to allow myself some hope was the key to confronting the awful depression and doom, and to work through those feelings. I haven't bottled them up, I have moved through them. They still exist, but I can handle them much, much better than I used to. My life has improved immensely since those posts. Therapy has also been a big part of that. I'm not "telling you how you really feel", I'm merely going by what you yourself posted. Glad to hear you've resolved your issues! But I stand by what I said: optimism is not a choice. Telling people they should stop feeling hopeless, especially in the face of terrible events of enormous scope and magnitude that are fully outside their control, is toxic. Telling people that feeling hopeless leads to giving up is also toxic. You may have good intentions when you say those kinds of things, but you're only causing damage. I'm merely saying you (the royal you) should stop doing it.
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Apr 8, 2022 17:49
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I think it can be true that "There are things that can be done", and also that they are not being done, likely won't, and we have almost 0 power to do make them happen. Even climate scientists are taking to chaining themselves to things and getting arrested. Saying "yeah we're hosed gently caress it" is something I hear from people who don't really care all that much anyway and certainly don't earnestly research the issue. I challenge them (and everybody) to be strong enough to sincerely accept how grim things are, and never stop advocating for a different world. This system effectively captures all of us and makes us complicit, but it does need us. If everybody stood up, as difficult/unlikely as that sounds, we could change it.
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Apr 8, 2022 18:03
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It's hard to talk about climate optimism because it's ultimately a fight between people who have not yet realized that our entrenched capital interests absolutely will not yield ground on any basis that is suboptimally profitable, and people who have seen climate science and concern for the climate disaster get abused and shut down in lieu of optimization for capital structures time and time and time and time and time and again. It's ultimately a fight between people who don't see it yet and those who do.
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Apr 8, 2022 18:26
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Climate scientists aren't wrong when they say that the solutions are all political. I think that a very frustrating thing with blind climate optimism is that they expect the discussion to take place with the same scientific rigor as climate science itself. It isn't a scientific topic. It's political, and overoptimists often expect the discussion to occupy a clean scientific space rather than a much dirtier political space that fundamentally must include scary ideas like "unfettered late capitalism is definitionally incapable of saving your children." It's tough to tell someone who expected a clean discussion that it's actually messy as hell, and that things are going to fundamentally change whether we like it or not.
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Apr 8, 2022 18:33
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How are u posted:I think that says a lot about how the global and national urgency around climate change and willingness to do things have improved over that time. You seem to be suggesting that changes to your personal feelings about having kids prove that the world is taking climate change more seriously. Is that right? This doesn't seem persuasive, it's more likely caused by your shift to optimism. Which you haven't presented much in the way of evidence to support. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Apr 8, 2022 |
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Apr 8, 2022 18:41
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Strong disagree. This is a nothing post. “Difficult problem to solve that will take decades”. That’s a way of just kicking the can down so we can keep doing all the poo poo we shouldn’t” and not address changing stuff (which we won’t and also can’t). It just reads like a Tesla owner who doesn’t want to admit they bought a lovely overpriced car and hope musk will save the day instead of realizing what he’s actually doing is making everything much much worse.
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Apr 8, 2022 18:53
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BRJurgis posted:Saying "yeah we're hosed gently caress it" is something I hear from people who don't really care all that much anyway and certainly don't earnestly research the issue. I challenge them (and everybody) to be strong enough to sincerely accept how grim things are, and never stop advocating for a different world. This system effectively captures all of us and makes us complicit, but it does need us. If everybody stood up, as difficult/unlikely as that sounds, we could change it. Absolutely, full agree. We could, we can, and I think we will. I'm certainly not going to give up.
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Apr 8, 2022 19:00
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LionArcher posted:This is a nothing post. “Difficult problem to solve that will take decades”. That’s a way of just kicking the can down so we can keep doing all the poo poo we shouldn’t” and not address changing stuff (which we won’t and also can’t). “A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit.” The idea that you should just give up and embrace the end feels like the opposite of recognizing the crisis. Its more pretending the crisis is unsolvable, which its not. Is it a fight against a corrupt capitalist system that is not capable of recognizing such? Yes. But that's hardly a reason to give up.
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Apr 8, 2022 19:05
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CommieGIR posted:“A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit.” Okay but the person who posted it is not actually recognizing it as a fight against a corrupt capitalist system they didn't actually make an argument at all they just hand-waved away the argument presented by the climate scientist. It's not that you are wrong and lionarcher is right, but in the context of the post they are responding to lion Archer is right because that post is fluffy nonsense. Hence the complaints about asymmetry from mods. See also the other obvious bigots who did not get in trouble for failing to back up their posts in the trans thread because they did not also harass people via pm.
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Apr 8, 2022 19:07
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CommieGIR posted:“A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit.” At no point did the poster say anything about giving up. They're talking about ceasing to grant credulity to options that have repeatedly let us down because they are not designed to solve this problem. Stop confusing the two.
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Apr 8, 2022 19:10
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Poster A: "This is worse than you might expect, our options that are politically acceptable to our ruling class have not worked, do not work, and will not work." Poster B: "Stop saying we need to give up! You're playing into the hands of the denialists." Poster A: 
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Apr 8, 2022 19:13
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Potato Salad posted:Poster A: "This is worse than you might expect, our options that are politically acceptable to our ruling class have not worked, do not work, and will not work." Yeah, the posters where they are telling people they are glad they don't have kids and are concerned for their nephews/nieces? That's very much reeks of nihilism. And we've had multiple posts where they basically summarize it as "Sitting back and watching the world burn". These are not people searching for solutions or fighting.
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Apr 8, 2022 19:16
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The only people putting words in others' mouths are the people conflating scepticism over policies and false-start platitudes with a history of failing to adequately address climate change with "just give up." No  doomer in this thread has said anything about giving up. They generally actually really loving care and are willing to endure radical social change to make a proper fix happen.
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Apr 8, 2022 19:17
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Poster A: check out this climate scientist. He's really upset because climate scientists are taking a big action seeking to highlight how our systems are failing us and the media is ignoring the action. Poster B: I disagree, the media talks about climate change all the time. Mods: please be nicer to poster B
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Apr 8, 2022 19:17
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