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Hey I get it there's not a lot to discuss. (not really but I'll go with this) but also idk cis people. You will get really fired up about Desantis dont say gay bill and tell me in the same breath that it's okay to restrict puberty blockers and HRT till 18. So while i appreciate that there isn't a lot to do besides decry it and offer solidarity, (well and actually signal boost people who are trying to fight this) that is something most trans people are not getting from people that call themselves allies offline. So sometimes it's nice to hear that a greater amount of people actually give a gently caress beyond trans people cause we have to.
Sedisp fucked around with this message at 13:28 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 13:25
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Sedisp posted:Hey I get it there's not a lot to discuss. (not really but I'll go with this) but also idk cis people. You will get really fired up about Desantis dont say gay bill and tell me in the same breath that it's okay to restrict puberty blockers and HRT till 18. So why i appreciate that there isn't a lot to do besides decry it and offer solidarity, that is something most trans people are not getting from people that call themselves allies offline. So sometimes it's nice to hear that a greater amount of people actually give a gently caress beyond trans people cause we have to. I don't read this thread much anymore so forgive me if I've missed it, but has anyone in here actually "You will get really fired up about Desantis dont say gay bill and tell me in the same breath that it's okay to restrict puberty blockers and HRT till 18"? I don't think I've ever seen anything even remotely close to that posted, like, anywhere on SA, much less here and I would be exceedingly shocked to see people posting that here.
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Apr 9, 2022 13:29
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Lib and let die posted:I mean at least one mod has made this thread pretty unwelcoming to at least one openly trans poster so it's not surprising there's a lack of trans voices. I have been pretty happy with how quickly mods have stepped in on transphobia on the forums. It used to be incredibly common and now there seems to be no tolerance for it. Edit: here's an article I found about Alabama. It seems to be trying to replicate and build on what Texas and Florida are doing: https://www.npr.org/2022/04/07/1091510026/alabama-gender-affirming-care-trans-transgender DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 13:31 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 13:29
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Herstory Begins Now posted:I don't read this thread much anymore so forgive me if I've missed it, but has anyone in here actually "You will get really fired up about Desantis dont say gay bill and tell me in the same breath that it's okay to restrict puberty blockers and HRT till 18"? I don't think I've ever seen anything even remotely close to that posted, like, anywhere on SA, much less here and I would be exceedingly shocked to see people posting that here. I don't mean itt i mean in general sorry if that wasn't clear
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Apr 9, 2022 13:30
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Ah my bad, you started off by calling out the thread so I just assumed you were continuing that, that's on me for assuming, apologies. Tbh I don't think the average person even knows wtf puberty blockers are or realizes how actually critical they are other than the conservatives who have figured out that they're a target that will cause maximum misery to trans kids.
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Apr 9, 2022 13:33
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Between the sweeping trans bans and the abortion issues, I don't feel like much is being done by the democrats to prevent any of this. I don't think the Dems are allies.
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Apr 9, 2022 13:34
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Ah my bad, you started off by calling out the thread so I just assumed you were continuing that, that's on me for assuming, apologies. If there's been any indication by the vast amount of newly minted weird looks and amount of people talking about kids getting surgery and hormones when they really need counseling I have to disagree. Like yeah it's a complete and total misunderstanding of how puberty blockers work but they definitely know they are being prescribed.
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Apr 9, 2022 13:36
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Those are being done by republicans in republican controlled courts and legislatures so I don't really followSedisp posted:If there's been any indication by the vast amount of newly minted weird looks and amount of people talking about kids getting surgery and hormones when they really need counseling I have to disagree. yeah I mean that random not-actively-transphobic people aren't too aware of them. transphobes absolutely 100% seemed to have keyed in on them somewhat recently as one of the better targets for inflicting misery on trans kids. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 13:39 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 13:37
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Those are being done by republicans in republican controlled courts and legislatures so I don't really follow There's a pretty heavy news regurgitation about trans stuff as of late and not really any defense by dems, media or allies to actually explain what puberty blockers are. Leaving the totality of work to less than 1% of the population that is currently being actively targeted seems like a less than stellar situation. Herstory Begins Now posted:yeah I mean that random not-actively-transphobic people aren't too aware of them. transphobes absolutely 100% seemed to have keyed in on them somewhat recently as one of the better targets for inflicting misery on trans kids. Ive definitely talked to more than one well meaning person that has no problem with trans people but they should wait till 18 and really doesn't see why that's controversial.
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Apr 9, 2022 13:40
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Codifying the right to an abortion in legislature is a thing they could have done if they really wanted to establish reproductive rights for women. I'm no fancy lawmaker but I'd imagine they could think of something similar for trans rights--if it was important to them. The Dems sitting on their hands while these injustices are carried out by the republicans isn't acceptable to me.
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Apr 9, 2022 13:41
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:Between the sweeping trans bans and the abortion issues, I don't feel like much is being done by the democrats to prevent any of this. I don't think the Dems are allies. Look at who has improved the rules for changing gender on government ID, and provided employment protection for transgender people. It has been Democratic administrations (including Hillary Clinton as secretary of state, interestingly enough) and Democratic state governments. I don't think Democrat=Automatic trans ally, it's a big tent, but Democrats have been the ones I've seen pushing these things. BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:Codifying the right to an abortion in legislature is a thing they could have done if they really wanted to establish reproductive rights for women. I'm no fancy lawmaker but I'd imagine they could think of something similar for trans rights--if it was important to them. Not sure where abortion gets into the trans discussion. I'd love to see the Congress put a law in place outlawing these kinds of state laws. I'm pessimistic enough to think it'd probably cost the Democrats a significant number of votes, but I'd like to see it anyway because it's the right thing to do. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 13:48 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 13:44
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Sedisp posted:There's a pretty heavy news regurgitation about trans stuff as of late and not really any defense by dems, media or allies to actually explain what puberty blockers are. Leaving the totality of work to less than 1% of the population that is currently being actively targeted seems like a less than stellar situation. It appears to have been a significant part of the white houses' press briefing on 4/7 quote:At the beginning of Thursday's press briefing, White House press secretary Jen Psaki accused Republicans of "engaging in a disturbing, cynical trend of attacking vulnerable transgender kids for purely partisan, political reasons. That said, there's currently a huge push by right wing/christian media to demonize puberty blockers that makes up like 95% of the reporting on the subject in the last couple of weeks and god drat is it bleak to see
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Apr 9, 2022 13:49
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Look at who has improved the rules for changing gender on government ID, and provided employment protection for transgender people. It has been Democratic administrations (including Hillary Clinton as secretary of state, interestingly enough) and Democratic state governments. I just include abortion as a good example of them failing to live up to their stated claims. Regarding trans rights, every little victory matters but the stuff these states are pushing is horrific and demands immediate intervention. And it will only grow and snowball from this point until the republicans outlaw LGBTQ in a few years while the democrats politely clap. Democrats were too cowardly to legislate gay marriage and waited for the supreme court to bail them out, I don't think we'll see bold decisive action from them on this issue either
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Apr 9, 2022 14:00
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:Between the sweeping trans bans and the abortion issues, I don't feel like much is being done by the democrats to prevent any of this. I don't think the Dems are allies. That’s because Dems and liberals are just conservatives who value decorum as their religion. DeadlyMuffin posted:Look at who has improved the rules for changing gender on government ID, and provided employment protection for transgender people. It has been Democratic administrations (including Hillary Clinton as secretary of state, interestingly enough) and Democratic state governments. Nah. You don’t, under any circumstances, have to hand it to Dems for scraping the bottom of bare minimum. Doubly so with the Clintons. This is like praising the parent that only verbally abuses a kid because the other parent beats the poo poo out of the kid every night. Demand more. Advocate for a better world and denounce those that actively seek to minimize those efforts (alt right, republicans, democrats, neo libs, etc).
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Apr 9, 2022 14:07
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:And it will only grow and snowball from this point until the republicans outlaw LGBTQ in a few years while the democrats politely clap. We're in agreement that the Democratic party should've done more, and should do more now, but in this statement you're arguing that Democrats support what Republicans are doing. That's counterfactual. They certainly aren't opposing it as much as they should. virtualboyCOLOR posted:That’s because Dems and liberals are just conservatives who value decorum as their religion. I'm not handing anything to anyone, I'm acknowledging a fact. Hillary Clinton, as Secretary of State, made it easier for transgender people to get the correct gender marker on passports. That was a big deal for me. I can disagree with her on every other issue and still acknowledge that. How is that abuse, in your analogy? DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 14:10
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DeadlyMuffin posted:We're in agreement that the Democratic party should've done more, and should do more now, but in this statement you're arguing that Democrats support what Republicans are doing. That's counterfactual. Actually it’s not wrong because a party is judged by its meaningful actions not by it’s polite words and token gestures. The Dems have done poo poo for legislation to protect human rights (trans, women, races, etc) and have done arguably more to advertise that their a good party following the rules and are held back because they need “just a few more votes”. Compliance is acceptance. Demand more.
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Apr 9, 2022 14:15
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:Actually it’s not wrong because a party is judged by its meaningful actions not by it’s polite words and token gestures. I am trying to explain to you why being able to have a correct gender marker on a passport was a big deal. For me. Personally. It wasn't a token gesture, it wasn't equivalent to "verbal abuse" and I've said over and over that it isn't sufficient, and Democrats need to do more. Don't tell me nothing meaningful has been done. It simply isn't true.
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Apr 9, 2022 14:17
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I feel like acknowledging that at least the babysitter managed to keep the kid alive is a little silly.
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Apr 9, 2022 14:21
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Given that these hateful anti-rights laws are being passed at the state level, that's where Dem political action is needed. A couple days ago Andy Beshear, the Dem governor of Kentucky, vetoed the girl's-sports bill that was passed by the legislature; electing Dems at the state level is the strongest action voters can take to protect & expand trans rights. Which is why it's so frustrating to many people that the state Dem parties are such a mess, and have a hard time recruiting good candidates. For all the yapping yesterday about DevilSantis, we never pointed out how the Dems are only half-heartedly running against him this year. Granted, the national Dems are being more agnostic when it comes to primary races (and that's a good thing), but which Dems at the national level (or among the notoriously horrible FL Dem party) thought it was a great idea to run Crist against DeSantis? The most recent poll, from Feb., shows DeSantis with a 21-pt lead--and that's leaving aside that Crist is giving up his U.S. House seat in a fairly red district. Fried is even further behind vs. DeSantis, at -23 pts.
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Apr 9, 2022 14:23
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I am trying to explain to you why being able to have a correct gender marker on a passport was a big deal. For me. Personally. That’s great I guess but I don’t feel it is worthy of praise in the least. “Thank you Dems for recognizing humans are humans in this instance.” We are taking about the party in power here pretending that the mean ol’ republicans won’t let them do more and performing token gestures that can be immediately reversed once republicans are in control. Dems can eat poo poo. Sedisp posted:I feel like acknowledging that at least the babysitter managed to keep the kid alive is a little silly. Exactly. vvvvvv that’s great that is feels meaningful to you. But ask yourself: how long do you feel that change will last? Do you still have anxiety that any gains for human rights can be easily swept away once republicans gain power? If so, the Dems did Jack poo poo. virtualboyCOLOR fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 14:24
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Sedisp posted:I feel like acknowledging that at least the babysitter managed to keep the kid alive is a little silly. I feel like arguing that something that was incredibly meaningful and helpful to me, and others like me, is actually meaningless is pretty silly, but here we are. virtualboyCOLOR posted:That’s great I guess but I don’t feel it is worthy of praise in the least. I do, and it greatly affected me. Have you ever had to chance your gender marker on a passport? It was a significant positive step. It wasn't nothing, and it wasn't a step in the opposite direction. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 14:24
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Willa Rogers posted:Given that these hateful anti-rights laws are being passed at the state level, that's where Dem political action is needed. A couple days ago Andy Beshear, the Dem governor of Kentucky, vetoed the girl's-sports bill that was passed by the legislature; electing Dems at the state level is the strongest action voters can take to protect & expand trans rights. Crist isn't even getting media coverage down here. He's so bland an unappealing that not even the local news (at least not my local FOX affiliate that runs as close to the liberal-left that any local news affiliate can) has mentioned his campaign. No doorknob fliers, no on the ground effort (you'd think they'd be out here in deep blue Broward county shoring up their base but  ), hell, I've gotten more texts I never wanted (thanks, Bernie!) from that piece of poo poo cop Val Demmings than I have Crist's campaign. Everything I've seen as a Florida resident indicates that the party is deeply unserious about winning on the state level here.
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Apr 9, 2022 14:32
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How does the florida democratic party even get unfucked?
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Apr 9, 2022 14:34
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:vvvvvv that’s great that is feels meaningful to you. But ask yourself: how long do you feel that change will last? Do you still have anxiety that any gains for human rights can be easily swept away once republicans gain power? If so, the Dems did Jack poo poo. I don't need your condescension. Your argument could be used to argue that all civil rights legislation is meaningless because it could be taken away. FWIW, in 4 years of Trump the passport rules did not revert. So, so far it's lasted at least 12 years. Willa Rogers posted:Given that these hateful anti-rights laws are being passed at the state level, that's where Dem political action is needed. A couple days ago Andy Beshear, the Dem governor of Kentucky, vetoed the girl's-sports bill that was passed by the legislature; electing Dems at the state level is the strongest action voters can take to protect & expand trans rights. Agreed completely. I'm not familiar with Florida politics (opposite coast), is there someone in particular that you think they should be running?
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Apr 9, 2022 14:34
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Herstory Begins Now posted:How does the florida democratic party even get unfucked? Dealing with a democrat party that's dependant on an open spigot of corporate cash is no different than dealing with an addict - It has to want to change first. Change can't be forced upon it.
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Apr 9, 2022 14:36
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I mean I get that that's the status quo and has been for decades, but I'm legitimately curious, in tangible terms, at what level pressure would even have to be applied to start weakening the death grip of the absolute incompetents that are currently in charge of the Dem party of florida. Because it's been a huge clusterfuck for much of my adult life and it's usually talked about as those it's literally impossible to change.
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Apr 9, 2022 14:42
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Your argument could be used to argue that all civil rights legislation is meaningless because it could be taken away. Yeah? And? Show me where in American history it’s wrong? Slavery still exists. Black codes still exist. Voting rights have been eroded. Women’s rights are being eroded. There are attempts to erode same sex marriage happening now. And trans rights are being eroded. Legislation isn’t enough.
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Apr 9, 2022 14:46
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Herstory Begins Now posted:How does the florida democratic party even get unfucked? Best case scenario that comes to mind is like Nevada where leftists just take over the entire apparatus and all the establishment staff flounce off into irrelevant grift.
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Apr 9, 2022 14:50
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Agreed completely. I'm not familiar enough with the state's pols; I only know of stories about the embarrassing state party. Maybe L&LD or other Floridians have suggestions. But it's as if the Dems have told themselves they'll never win against DeSantis, so why try? It echoes their default pre-emptive losses across the country in which they let seats go entirely unchallenged by Republicans. When you let the state party rot over decades from corruption & grift, when you make personal wealth & self-funded campaigns a criteria for candidates, when you field (or tacitly support) candidates who are polling 20+ points It's a really bad look, and psychologically destructive to Dem voters, to field opposition candidates so half-heartedly. Also recall that the last time Crist ran for governor, as an independent, a lot of high-profile Dems backed him over the winner of the Dem primary. "Vote blue no matter who" is a situational directive. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 14:51
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The only way I see it happening is direct ballot initiatives to detangle the real estate industry, big sugar, and tourism from local politics. The one thing the party is really good at down here is crushing opposition from its left. eta: and even those aren't tamper-proof; we passed medical marijuana and restoring the vote to returning citizens via direct ballot measure and the governor's office interfered (and continues to interfere) with both of those issues. I don't think Crist would hesitate for a second to make sure that Nestlé maintains rights to the water in lake Okeechobee even if voters overwhelmingly voted to revoke the permits or whatever. Lib and let die fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 14:51
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:Yeah? And? Show me where in American history it’s wrong? Your argument is that there has been literally no improvement in racial discrimination, gender discrimination, or trans rights in American history. It is nonsensical. virtualboyCOLOR posted:Legislation isn’t enough. I never said *anything* was enough. I just said it wasn't "meaningless" or "verbal abuse instead of physical abuse"
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Apr 9, 2022 15:01
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Your argument is that there has been literally no improvement in racial discrimination, gender discrimination, or trans rights in American history. It is nonsensical. It’s the only logical conclusion. Incremental change that never addresses the root cause (the US does not guarantee or value human rights) isn’t meaningful change and the effective outcome is still one where self appointed elites rule over of the disenfranchised. I will not congratulate a party that upholds a system built to support oppression. You do you though. vvvvv it’s because the Dems sympathize with/support the Republican party or, at the very least, enjoy having them around to ensure they can’t enact any meaningful change and fundraise forever. virtualboyCOLOR fucked around with this message at 15:11 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 15:07
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Willa Rogers posted:But it's as if the Dems have told themselves they'll never win against DeSantis, so why try? It echoes their default pre-emptive losses across the country in which they let seats go entirely unchallenged by Republicans. This part has always been particularly galling to me since yeah, there are plenty of counties where a dem challenger has almost no hope at all. But by constantly going without a challenger it's just conditioning voters in those areas to accept it's always gonna be a seat held by the gop. I get that it's not a particularly appealing prospect to be the sacrificial lamb for one of those elections but it comes off as shooting themselves in the foot for the long term if they're not even gonna *try*.
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Apr 9, 2022 15:07
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:It’s the only logical reaction. I'll just point out that literally anything short of a revolution is reversible in our system. Laws, even constitutional amendments. You're using this as a basis to attack Democrats but this applies to literally anyone or any group working within the system. If that's your stance, then... Okay I guess but it wouldn've been easier to lead with "literally any legislation or constitutional amendment is meaningless".
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Apr 9, 2022 15:16
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I'll just point out that literally anything short of a revolution is reversible in our system. Laws, even constitutional amendments. Doesn’t have to. It takes people to not vote for a terrible party or give them credit for doing so incredibly little while the party allows human rights to be eroded. Dems can fix the issue legally right now by stacking the courts, jailing members of congress for supporting the Jan 6 nonsense, sending out the national guard in states where human rights are being violated, and, above all, dropping the loving decorum worship. Effective outcomes matter more than platitudes, even if those platitudes feel temporarily nice.
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Apr 9, 2022 15:23
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I'll just point out that literally anything short of a revolution is reversible in our system. Laws, even constitutional amendments. Don't need to add the qualifier. Revolutions can be undone under any system. That's what often gets left out by people who insist that others should fight a revolution for them, it will be easy and never have any drawbacks.
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Apr 9, 2022 15:29
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All those people who say that all the time. Like....?
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Apr 9, 2022 15:31
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In a strange twist, seemingly due to the cruelty directed at them in red states I'm seeing more support for Trans folks amongst those who previously would only acknowledge them as a punchline or meme. Just amongst people where I live, but that's valid enough information given the insanity of poll results I read in this thread*. Frame it as these red states that supposedly strive for individual freedom and liberty now restricting personal medical care (regarding both trans or abortion), and punishing or separating families for seeking it. More and more people have a family member or distant acquaintance who is non binary or Trans, and its becoming hard for anybody but the most openly hateful fuckwads to dehumanizing them (at least round these parts, or maybe just within earshot of me the loud angry hippy leftist). Of course, as soon as some RWM boosted story about a Trans person winning at sports or committing a crime comes out many will trip over their dicks rushing to the supposed middle with "well that's just too far drat democrats!" *polling on all matters not just trans rights, and certainly not an attack on the posters supplying them. Just the conflicting insanity of some polling that I can only interpret as "people who are polled have no loving clue what's going on" The two party system and the culture war are so hosed, and a lot of low information people consider themselves bold free thinkers for striving to be "in the middle" of completely bogus parameters handed down to them. It's beyond frustrating, they let the powers that be determine the playing field then give themselves an award for not being "sheeple" or whatever.
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Apr 9, 2022 15:33
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I'll just point out that literally anything short of a revolution is reversible in our system. Laws, even constitutional amendments. VBC and others have the low bar of 'full communist revolution now where I get to put people I don't like against a wall and shoot them.' Probably not the best metric to use for success on trans issues considering how trans people have been historically treated in many communist countries.
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Apr 9, 2022 15:36
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Harold Fjord posted:All those people who say that all the time. Like....? How would you categorize "use a narrow majority at some levels of government to invalidate the courts, jail the opposition, and force drastic changes in the letter and spirit of government, which even if all are good are wildly different in popularity?" I guess it's really more a coup than a revolution, but speaking of things that are really easy to undo if the public doesn't really strongly have your backs on not only what you're doing but how you''re doing it..
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Apr 9, 2022 15:38
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