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Killer robot posted:Don't need to add the qualifier. Revolutions can be undone under any system. That's what often gets left out by people who insist that others should fight a revolution for them, it will be easy and never have any drawbacks. Who are these people who insist that others should fight a revolution on their behalf? Do you have any citations or links for this contention, or would you like to expand on your unsourced claim?
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Apr 9, 2022 15:39
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Willa Rogers posted:Who are these people who insist that others should fight a revolution on their behalf? Do you have any citations or links for this contention, or would you like to expand on your unsourced claim? Pretty sure revolution was implied by VBC as a requirement for any true progress. virtualboyCOLOR posted:Yeah? And? Show me where in American history it’s wrong?
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Apr 9, 2022 15:43
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I am trying to explain to you why being able to have a correct gender marker on a passport was a big deal. For me. Personally. To me, the gender change thing doesn't seem like something that's praiseworthy. It's among the lowest possible bars to clear for politicians that claim to be on the side of human rights. It can still be meaningful and a big deal but I don't see why they deserve praise--or even acknowledgement--for doing it when so much more still needs to be done. And looking it up, it seems like it was the Supreme Court that enforced transgender employment protections in Bostock v Clayton County. So not even something the Democrats had a hand in, much like w gay marriage. 
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Apr 9, 2022 15:44
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'Dems fighting any harder than they do is an illegal coup' is a much hotter take than any of the ones you made up and attributed to thread leftists. As is the implication that the public wants the Dems to roll over.
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Apr 9, 2022 15:45
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^^^^ Well said!Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Pretty sure revolution was implied by VBC as a requirement for any true progress. Killer robot posted:How would you categorize "use a narrow majority at some levels of government to invalidate the courts, jail the opposition, and force drastic changes in the letter and spirit of government, which even if all are good are wildly different in popularity?" I guess it's really more a coup than a revolution, but speaking of things that are really easy to undo if the public doesn't really strongly have your backs on not only what you're doing but how you''re doing it.. Heck Yes! Loam! posted:VBC and others have the low bar of 'full communist revolution now where I get to put people I don't like against a wall and shoot them.' Yes these are all words I said and definitely not: virtualboyCOLOR posted:Dems can fix the issue legally right now by stacking the courts, jailing members of congress for supporting the Jan 6 nonsense, sending out the national guard in states where human rights are being violated, and, above all, dropping the loving decorum worship. Let’s get back to the actual current event at hand: https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-politics-and-policy/alabama-governor-signs-bill-criminalizing-transgender-health-care-mino-rcna23674 posted:
So what the hell is Biden and the Democratic Party going to do about this clear loving injustice?
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Apr 9, 2022 15:51
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Harold Fjord posted:'Dems fighting any harder than they do is an illegal coup' is a much hotter take than any of the ones you made up and attributed to thread leftists. Good thing no one said that then, isn't it? Unless the only way for dems to fight any harder than they are specifically requires jailing opposition, invalidating the courts on principle, and remaking society and government without the shackles of "legislation." In which case, I guess that is still an illegal coup. Personally I can think of degrees between that the current state of the Democratic party, so I'm explicitly not claiming that.
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Apr 9, 2022 15:53
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You keep framing jailing those who supported a coup as a coup itself. Fascinating. Also perfectly aligned with that sole conservative proposition of "it's not illegal when WE do it"
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Apr 9, 2022 15:55
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:^^^^ Well said! They're not doing anything, because they don't care enough to.
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Apr 9, 2022 15:56
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:
This comes back to your talk about how tenuous progress is. Personally I'm for stacking the courts but seeing as that got massive blowback even against FDR's overwhelming majority and hurt other parts of his policy agenda, how do you think Dems can, not just do better with razor-thin control of Congress, but make sure it's well-received by a public that's pretty heavily divided and where most of the people endorsing sudden drastic action are opposite the Dems?
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Apr 9, 2022 15:59
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So lets say Biden arrested republican congressmen, trashed the supreme court and sent the military to take control of Texas, Florida, Alabama etc tomorrow. Do you think: 1) That would make things better in the US overall? 2) Provide a better life for the trans people in those states 3) End in anything other than large scale war and death?
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Apr 9, 2022 15:59
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:To me, the gender change thing doesn't seem like something that's praiseworthy. It's among the lowest possible bars to clear for politicians that claim to be on the side of human rights. It can still be meaningful and a big deal but I don't see why they deserve praise--or even acknowledgement--for doing it when so much more still needs to be done. Ok. The person I was responding to said it was meaningless, and tantamount to verbal abuse when Republicans are doing physical abuse, so that's what I was responding to. The narrative that Democrats have done literally nothing annoys me, because what has been done has been very meaningful for me. Having a piece of federal ID with the correct gender let me fix it on a ton of other places very easily, and travel with far less issue. Try going through immigration in a Gulf country with a passport that doesn't match your presentation. I have. It was absolutely horrific. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 16:00
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:You thought it was over last week, but only now it is truly over. So it turns out neoliberalism isn’t a bulwark against fascism?
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Apr 9, 2022 16:03
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Nucleic Acids posted:So it turns out neoliberalism isn’t a bulwark against fascism? Especially not in France.
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Apr 9, 2022 16:04
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Nucleic Acids posted:So it turns out neoliberalism isn’t a bulwark against fascism? LOL neoliberalism is the gateway to fascism
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Apr 9, 2022 16:05
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Trevorrrrrrrrrrrrr posted:So lets say Biden arrested republican congressmen, trashed the supreme court and sent the military to take control of Texas, Florida, Alabama etc tomorrow. Do you think: 1) That would make things better in the US overall? 2) Provide a better life for the trans people in those states 3) End in anything other than large scale war and death? I would love for Biden to deploy the military to give me a better life lol. Also "trashed" the supreme court, what does that even mean lol. Aside from the fact that ship has sailed, it is trashed already, unless you want to look at the supreme court as it is right now and tell me it's cool and good.
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Apr 9, 2022 16:05
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Killer robot posted:This comes back to your talk about how tenuous progress is. Personally I'm for stacking the courts but seeing as that got massive blowback even against FDR's overwhelming majority and hurt other parts of his policy agenda, how do you think Dems can, not just do better with razor-thin control of Congress, but make sure it's well-received by a public that's pretty heavily divided and where most of the people endorsing sudden drastic action are opposite the Dems? Probably could have passed some actual legislation they promised to build up good will based on why they were loving elected in the first place. But Dems gotta be Dems and Dem supporters and liberals gotta make excuses. Trevorrrrrrrrrrrrr posted:So lets say Biden arrested republican congressmen, trashed the supreme court and sent the military to take control of Texas, Florida, Alabama etc tomorrow. Do you think: 1) That would make things better in the US overall? 2) Provide a better life for the trans people in those states 3) End in anything other than large scale war and death? I’ll answer your question with a question: what in your mind is the appropriate Democratic response to human rights violations and a soon to be in power party that is itching to do more damage to the already disenfranchised?
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Apr 9, 2022 16:07
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Trevorrrrrrrrrrrrr posted:So lets say Biden arrested republican congressmen, trashed the supreme court and sent the military to take control of Texas, Florida, Alabama etc tomorrow. Do you think: 1) That would make things better in the US overall? 2) Provide a better life for the trans people in those states 3) End in anything other than large scale war and death? How this world worse than doing fuckall just like he is right now?
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Apr 9, 2022 16:10
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:Probably could have passed some actual legislation they promised to build up good will based on why they were loving elected in the first place. You already said legislation wasn't enough and that incremental steps were akin to abuse. Now you think they would be good? Which is it. virtualboyCOLOR posted:
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Apr 9, 2022 16:11
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Trevorrrrrrrrrrrrr posted:So lets say Biden arrested republican congressmen, trashed the supreme court and sent the military to take control of Texas, Florida, Alabama etc tomorrow. Do you think: 1) That would make things better in the US overall? 2) Provide a better life for the trans people in those states 3) End in anything other than large scale war and death? Excising a cancerous tumor usually does involve carving through a lot of flesh that will take time to heal and leave the patient in a lot of pain, Yes. We're not there yet, but the options for pushing back against the GOP as they march towards genocide for LGBTQ/minority people are becoming slimmer and more extreme by the day. So tell me what up to what amount of pain and suffering for LGBTQ/Minority you're willing to accept? Taking them away from non-abusive parents who want them to be happy to be reeducated in "camps" to be good "christians"? Russia style "don't admit you exist or else you'll be arrested" laws? Or is anything and everything ok up until we have actual extermination camps (and you can't semantically shy away from admitting them exist by claiming they're something technically different)?
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Apr 9, 2022 16:12
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:You already said legislation wasn't enough and that incremental steps were akin to abuse. Now you think they would be good? Which is it. Not surprising for Dem sympathizers and leftist bashers to not understand context. I was responding to this quote. You should see it since you quoted the post. Killer robot posted:how do you think Dems can, not just do better with razor-thin control of Congress, but make sure it's well-received by a public Legislation is not enough but actually delivering on legislation that was promised during the election would have built good will with the public. This would have allow for additional actions to be well received.
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Apr 9, 2022 16:15
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Nucleic Acids posted:So it turns out neoliberalism isn’t a bulwark against fascism? Neoliberalism is the most popular candidate in France. The left-wing parties, socialist parties, and center right parties have all collapsed. The left-wing parties died in 2017 and still haven't recovered. Even Le Pen, who has benefited from the other right-wing parties collapsing and consolidating around her, is still only pulling about 27% in the first round. Politics in France basically collapsed into just a weird French version of neoliberalism and diet fascism in 2017 and has never really changed. The left-wing, center left (outside of Macron, who is just one guy and not even a real party), and the center right have all been electorally dead for half a decade and don't seem to be recovering anytime soon. Le Pen got her rise by running against the Socialist party in power in 2016 and consolidating the support of the far right parties and stealing some of the voters from the center right party. Macron rose to power after all the left-wing parties in France fell to single digits. It's a weird political stasis. You'd think after nearly a decade that the left wing or center right would be able to regroup and do something to change the dynamic, but they have been frozen in place. The party that literally held the Presidency for most of the last 30 years is polling at 1% in the current election, the mainstream conservative party is polling around 12%, and every left-wing party combined is polling lower than just Marine Le Pen or just Macron. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 16:17
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Harold Fjord posted:You keep framing jailing those who supported a coup as a coup itself. Fascinating it's the strangest thing about the way democrats handled 1/6: they've talked about it like a coup attempt, and acted as if it was a few bad apples getting rowdy I get that it's easier to just use it as a fundraising tool than actually take any steps to prevent it (see also: current transphobia push by republicans) but you'd think that they'd understand the value of a response beyond 'acquiesce, but whinily' one is tempted, given the camps on the border and this new trans hate push by Republicans, to claim that dems are just looking out for themselves, but their 1/6 response demonstrates its deeper than that. the capital police can let a mob of qanon nutcases in to do whatever they'd like to them, and they'll refuse to lift a a finger to protect themselves either. what a grotesque yin and yang we've put together, a party associated with the idea government should do nothing pursuing its empowerment with hateful vigor, and a party associated with the idea government should protect its citizens wisely dozing off at the wheel, for fear that if they took actions to fend off their opponent someone might call them tyrannical.
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Apr 9, 2022 16:21
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:it's the strangest thing about the way democrats handled 1/6: they've talked about it like a coup attempt, and acted as if it was a few bad apples getting rowdy Democrats literally impeached Trump for incitement of insurrection over it.
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Apr 9, 2022 16:25
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Wait I thought Jan 6 wasn't anything, and now you support jailing republicans over it? I feel like there may be some bad faith arguments just whizzing by here. virtualboyCOLOR posted:Not surprising for Dem sympathizers and leftist bashers to not understand context. Why do I feel like Satre when arguing with you? You play with words and twist them for your argument with little regard for truth or meaning.
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Apr 9, 2022 16:26
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Democrats literally impeached Trump for incitement of insurrection over it. And yet we still seem to need a Strong Republican Party.
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Apr 9, 2022 16:27
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Nucleic Acids posted:And yet we still seem to need a Strong Republican Party. I certainly don't think so.
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Apr 9, 2022 16:28
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Sharkie posted:I would love for Biden to deploy the military to give me a better life lol. Also "trashed" the supreme court, what does that even mean lol. Aside from the fact that ship has sailed, it is trashed already, unless you want to look at the supreme court as it is right now and tell me it's cool and good. So you think he could just order the military to take over red states and that process would go smooth, without any violence? Something tells me living in those war zone states would not be an improvement Crain posted:Excising a cancerous tumor usually does involve carving through a lot of flesh that will take time to heal and leave the patient in a lot of pain, Yes. Genocide against LGBTQ and Minorities? You seriously need a grip on reality. The worst bill I've seen is just waiting to be 18 for trans kids to undergo surgery. Like come on man, it really sucks for them and I don't like seeing those laws but Genocide??? Nucleic Acids posted:How this world worse than doing fuckall just like he is right now? Likely results in civil war so millions of dead, tens of millions starving and the collapse of the country, so extreme wide spread suffering. Personally that sounds awful and much worse!
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Apr 9, 2022 16:29
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Democrats literally impeached Trump for incitement of insurrection over it. Yes, and that literally did nothing.
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Apr 9, 2022 16:30
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I certainly don't think so. Yet the Democratic Party clearly does.
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Apr 9, 2022 16:30
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Fister Roboto posted:Yes, and that literally did nothing. Not because of Democrats.
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Apr 9, 2022 16:31
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Trevorrrrrrrrrrrrr posted:So lets say Biden arrested republican congressmen, trashed the supreme court and sent the military to take control of Texas, Florida, Alabama etc tomorrow. Do you think: 1) That would make things better in the US overall? 2) Provide a better life for the trans people in those states 3) End in anything other than large scale war and death? Yes, and yes. Republicans are already chomping at the bit for the latter in the probably correct assumption it'll work out well for them. Point a gun at them, and they will obey. Point guns at the people who want to torture trans people into suicide, and they might stop. Point guns at the people who are literally asking Trump 'When are we going to shoot these people?" It's literally the only way to prevent large scale war and death. DeadlyMuffin posted:Not because of Democrats. Does that matter?
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Apr 9, 2022 16:31
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Democrats literally impeached Trump for incitement of insurrection over it. would have made a fine opening salvo! and instead of following up on it with... anything, the issue is now happily consigned to the realm of fundraising emails. the dems aren't willing to even try to protect themselves from what their PR blasts assure us was a murderous coup attempt, what leads you to believe they're going to treat a threat to any of the little people any more seriously.
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Apr 9, 2022 16:31
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:Probably could have passed some actual legislation they promised to build up good will based on why they were loving elected in the first place. How does this fit in with your assertion that legislation, and in fact civil war, were "incremental changes" that did nothing and should be disregarded? It feels like your position is just "rage" and even when that's relatable it's hard to satisfy with real-world actions or advice. Personally I think the Dems need to fix things not top down as you've suggested but bottom up. They routinely fail at messaging, allowing right-wing framing of topics to dominate national discussion, letting state and local parties languish, and getting the guy on the street to say "Yeah, let them fight I'm not on either extreme" or "can't they just work together instead of fighting over who has the chair?" They need to be more aggressive with appointments, details of legislation, and making sure people know that good policies can change lives (as just pointed out in this thread) and how that's not a victory lap but a tightening of the ratchet against the enemies of human rights. That's slow and unpleasant and frustrating, but even sudden progress in government historically comes after incremental change in public support. Exceptions include throwing the dice on violent revolution with limited public support leading to materially better outcome and, in US history, having a SCOTUS that's left of the American public on important issues, and both feel equally likely in the short term.
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Apr 9, 2022 16:33
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Trevorrrrrrrrrrrrr posted:So you think he could just order the military to take over red states and that process would go smooth, without any violence? Something tells me living in those war zone states would not be an improvement Sending in the 101st Airborn for the Little Rock Nine didn't result in millions dead. Also those bills are going to cause death by violence and suicide but thank you for suggesting I'm insane for caring.
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Apr 9, 2022 16:34
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Wait I thought Jan 6 wasn't anything, and now you support jailing republicans over it? I feel like there may be some bad faith arguments just whizzing by here.  I'm pretty sure YMB was pointing out that the Capitol police need to be held to account for their acquiesence; just the other day two people were found to be not guilty for their actions on Jan. 6 because evidence showed the Capitol police willingly allowing them in.The same Capitol police to whom Congress gave more money afterward. What would be bad faith is broadly alleging that YMB doesn't "think Jan. 6 is anything" without a direct quote that proves you correct.
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Apr 9, 2022 16:34
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:would have made a fine opening salvo! and instead of following up on it with... anything, the issue is now happily consigned to the realm of fundraising emails. If I recall at the time you thought the impeachment was not the correct course of action. This seems inconsistent and probably not an argument made in good faith. I personally doubt the January 6th committee will result in any criminal charges to DJT or his inner circle, I am not sure you can say nothing is being done.
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Apr 9, 2022 16:37
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Nucleic Acids posted:And yet we still seem to need a Strong Republican Party. Do you not actually know what they meant or are you just white noise posting this? Just in case you don't, she was saying that, in a democracy, one party won't be in power forever. So, the fact that the Republican party is so weak that a group of crazies led by one specific crazy can dominate the party so entirely and so quickly is bad for the country. The Republican party has been losing its grip to crazies since the 80's, started speeding up dramatically in 1994, and sped up even further in 2016. When one party controlling the government means that basic things like passing a budget, managing a pandemic, or manage the existing government programs and offices can't get done, then that hurts everyone in the country regardless. The explicit example she used was that Eisenhower disagreed with congress, but never shutdown the government, denied basic science, ignored subpoenas, or tried to overthrow election results. The basic functions and services of the government still operated despite Eisenhower having a very different opinion and ideology than Harry Truman. She wasn't saying that the Republican party as it exists now is a good thing that needs to be supported. She was saying the literal opposite. Whether you think that is a good point or not is up for debate, but you have to actually know what she said to argue for or against it. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 16:37
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Do you not actually know what they meant or are you just white noise posting this? No, I understand, she’s just a geriatric dumbass and so is Biden (who said the same loving thing!) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Nucleic Acids fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 16:40
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Do you not actually know what they meant or are you just white noise posting this? The republican party is bad and wants to do bad things and hurt people. So no actually, anyone who wants them to be strong is stupid and or evil.
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Apr 9, 2022 16:41
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Do you not actually know what they meant or are you just white noise posting this? I’m pretty sure that post was referencing Biden actually: https://youtu.be/WDK5-7slPVE Which, no, we don’t need a Republican Party that is principled and strong given their principles. Edit: Looks like I may have been wrong. Mea Culpa. Nucleic Acids posted:No, I understand, she’s just a geriatric dumbass and so is Biden (who said the same loving thing!) Sharkie posted:The republican party is bad and wants to do bad things and hurt people. So no actually, anyone who wants them to be strong is stupid and or evil. This is true and every day Dems and their defenders support the status quo it seems to apply to the Democratic Party as well. virtualboyCOLOR fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 16:42
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