|
PeterCat posted:The US Air Force's physical fitness test consists of 2 minutes of push-ups, 2 minutes of sit-ups, and a 1.5 mile run. A US Air Force study of transitioning servicemembers showed that post transition, the servicemembers performed more or less equally with their new cohort, with the exceptions that MTF Airmen did 12% better on the run than cis-gendered women, while FTM Airmen scored slightly better on sit-ups than their counterparts. No? It's not a competition, it's "can you operate above this completely arbitrary baseline", so what does it matter?
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 02:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 14:24 |
|
|
One notable observation I have come across is that there are no guidelines about natural testosterone levels in competitive men's sports. As long as the man isn't doping, no one cares if he naturally has a lot more testosterone than other men.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 02:16
|
|
|
some plague rats posted:No? It's not a competition, it's "can you operate above this completely arbitrary baseline", so what does it matter? It is a competition. Your PT score adds to your promotion points. More promotions points means you get promoted ahead of other people competing for the same promotion. If you have 2 people who are otherwise equal in schools and performance and one has a higher score on the PT test, they are going to get promoted first.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 02:17
|
|
|
PeterCat posted:The US Air Force's physical fitness test consists of 2 minutes of push-ups, 2 minutes of sit-ups, and a 1.5 mile run. A US Air Force study of transitioning servicemembers showed that post transition, the servicemembers performed more or less equally with their new cohort, with the exceptions that MTF Airmen did 12% better on the run than cis-gendered women, while FTM Airmen scored slightly better on sit-ups than their counterparts. well first off, lmao chair force. on a more serious note, that would depend what is the intended goal of this fitness test. My intuition would be that it establishes a base level of physical fitness that the military can assume to be present in every service member of its branch. Under that respect I don't see why it would be necessary to fine-tune the results to the capabilities of a subgroup, be it trans individuals or any other distinct demographic. e: PeterCat posted:It is a competition. Your PT score adds to your promotion points. More promotions points means you get promoted ahead of other people competing for the same promotion. If you have 2 people who are otherwise equal in schools and performance and one has a higher score on the PT test, they are going to get promoted first. ohhhhhh. okay that makes more sense. i guess my retort would be has the military shown interest in "leveling the playing field," so to speak, for any other physically distinct demophraphic? if they haven't, then I see no reason why they would change their approach for trans soldiers, and if they have, well throw it to the actuaries and let them go nuts! A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Apr 10, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 02:17
|
|
|
PeterCat posted:It is a competition. Your PT score adds to your promotion points. More promotions points means you get promoted ahead of other people competing for the same promotion. If you have 2 people who are otherwise equal in schools and performance and one has a higher score on the PT test, they are going to get promoted first. It does not add to your promotion points, at least not in the USAF. If you pass your Physical Fitness Test, you pass. That's it. Sometimes they give you little rewards for getting a particularly high score like a day off or something, but as long as you pass the DOD doesn't give a gently caress. Now, if you fail your PFT, they will prevent you from promoting if you are eligible for it. The PFT is just a checkbox. Source: Me, an Ex-USAF veteran. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Apr 10, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 02:18
|
|
|
ram dass in hell posted:I mean realistically the current title always meant this, lol. It's not a debate with two reasonable sides, it's an oppressed group trying to fuckin' live and harassment from freaks who are obsessed with other people's genitals and/or who thrive on the attention and endorphins they get from taking their own personal issues out on a class of people a lot of people in society feel they have a green light to verbally bully, physically assault, and so on. There's no middle ground and there's no way to convince me that the transphobes have a point.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 02:19
|
|
|
BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:This thread is doing a good job of demonstrating the central thesis that emerged on the first page: essentially all criticism of transgender athletes in sport is motivated by hate/politics rather than anything to do with equity or fairness in sport. Shame mods aren't faster on the draw, but is anyone surprised the bigots are throwing themselves at this thread? It also proves trying to "debate" bigots only embolden them
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 02:20
|
|
|
PeterCat posted:It is a competition. Your PT score adds to your promotion points. More promotions points means you get promoted ahead of other people competing for the same promotion. If you have 2 people who are otherwise equal in schools and performance and one has a higher score on the PT test, they are going to get promoted first. That would be useful context to add to the post! In that case: still no, for a couple reasons: 1. the variation on average is barely there and trans people are such a vanishingly small part of the military it doesn't even seem necessary, 2. being trans in the military comes with so many inherent disadvantages I don't see the need to single people out more, 3. nobody cares, work harder e: I forgot 4. gently caress the army and the cops even if they're trans some plague rats fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Apr 10, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 02:21
|
|
|
Shageletic posted:It also proves trying to "debate" bigots only embolden them It also derails the thread pretty hard, making people with actual, earnest questions have a harder time getting a decent discussion because the loud bigot in the room sucks up all the energy in the space.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 02:24
|
|
|
cat botherer posted:Fuuuck offff. 24 hr probe probe is bitchmade poo poo. As CAT INTERCEPTOR pointed out, a 24-hour probe is the most we can hand out without admin approval, bans or longer probes take some time as there is usually some brief discussion and then an admin has to push approval buttons. Also, re: speed of mod response, if something bad is going down that you think warrants faster action, pinging mods on Discord is probably the quickest way to get our attention. Personally I'm usually not very active on the forums during daytime US time, but if you message me on Discord I'll get a notification on my phone. Can't speak for the rest of the mod crew. edit: in the interest of transparency, the 1-day I issued for Trollologist is more for  Stirring poo poo and then telling posters to log off or post elsewhere.The actual content of their posts is under discussion with mods and admins, as is the general state of the thread. Personally I'd agree with ram dass in hell posted:I mean realistically the current title always meant this, lol. It's not a debate with two reasonable sides, it's an oppressed group trying to fuckin' live and harassment from freaks who are obsessed with other people's genitals and/or who thrive on the attention and endorphins they get from taking their own personal issues out on a class of people a lot of people in society feel they have a green light to verbally bully, physically assault, and so on. There's no middle ground and there's no way to convince me that the transphobes have a point. Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Apr 10, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 02:25
|
|
|
A big flaming stink posted:well first off, lmao chair force. on a more serious note, that would depend what is the intended goal of this fitness test. My intuition would be that it establishes a base level of physical fitness that the military can assume to be present in every service member of its branch. Under that respect I don't see why it would be necessary to fine-tune the results to the capabilities of a subgroup, be it trans individuals or any other distinct demographic. Your intuition is not quite right. There should be tests to determine if a servicemember can meet the physical demands of their job and a test to determine their overall level of fitness. Unfortunately, those 2 somewhat contradictory goals get mashed into one mediocre test that is then used to determine your worth as a servicemember, or at least it's one of the things that goes into how quickly and if you get promoted. Take the Army's latest boondoggle, the Army Combat Fitness Test. Briefly, a study was done of the tasks required of a Soldier in a combat environment, those tasks were broken down into various movements, which were translated into exercises that could could be baselined and measured. Except that the test group used were fit young people at an infantry base, and when they tried the test on the broader force it was found that one of the exercises, the leg tuck which consists of hanging from a pull-up bar and then bringing your thighs up to your elbow for reps, was extremely hard for older women and women who had had children to do, so it was dropped in favor of planking for time. In addition, the test was originally going to have one standard for men and women, with no allowance for age. It sounds good to measure everyone against the same standard, but it put older Soldiers and women of all ages at a disadvantage since it wasn't a measure of the ability of them to do their job, it was a measure of overall fitness which manifests itself differently based on age and gender. A fit 20 year old can physically perform better than a fit 40 year old, all things being equal, but the test didn't reflect that. It has since been amended to a scale broken out by age and gender. Since the Air Force, in the case of the study, is already scoring people differently based on age and gender, should it be broken out further to take account of the advantage that MTF Airmen have in the run and FTM Airmen have in the sit up event?
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 02:33
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:It does not add to your promotion points, at least not in the USAF. If you pass your Physical Fitness Test, you pass. That's it. Sometimes they give you little rewards for getting a particularly high score like a day off or something, but as long as you pass the DOD doesn't give a gently caress. Now, if you fail your PFT, they will prevent you from promoting if you are eligible for it. The Air Force might not, but the Army does, unless my information is outdated, which, I admit it could be with the new test.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 02:36
|
|
|
Fritz the Horse posted:As CAT INTERCEPTOR pointed out, a 24-hour probe is the most we can hand out without admin approval, bans or longer probes take some time as there is usually some brief discussion and then an admin has to push approval buttons. Likewise, if a QCS thread spawns from this thread, the mods should seriously consider taking the forums private for its duration to mitigate offsite transphobic backlash.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 03:19
|
|
|
Rob Filter posted:I don't think anyone else has said this yet, but Trollologist absolutely needs to be permabanned here for their repeated transphobia. Are they a bully who gets their rocks off harassing strangers using transphobia as a tool, or are they a transphobe who genuinely believes the hateful things they say? Either way, they are a vile transphobe. Either way, they have actively incited violence against trans people, and when called out escalated their transphobic harassment. I'll forward that. If you or other posters feel strongly about a perma or other action I'd suggest PM'ing one of the admins as they're the ones that ultimately make that call. I'd suggest sebmojo, Hand Knit, or Pragmatica.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 04:04
|
|
|
That's also obviously someone's alt troll account, couldn't really be any more obvious. I don't think someone like that should be posting here on any account.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 04:20
|
|
|
PeterCat posted:I'm going to ask an adjacent question. Should there be a separate scale to score trans servicemembers when they take their annual physical fitness tests? I think those differences are so minimal that it's not any sort of real bar. Outside of that the military is going to adjust fights requirements based on how wide they want to recruit.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 05:10
|
|
|
Thoughts on rebooting this thread or at least renaming it to be more of a general discussion on trans and LGBTQ+ issues? We (queer folks broadly) are unfortunately a main focus of right-wing reactionaries in the US and elsewhere and with US midterm elections coming up there's going to be a lot of awful bills, statements from politicians etc. I don't think the OP's intention was ever for this to be an actual debate thread. As pointed out, there is really only one answer and by setting it up as a yes/no debate we invite bigots to poo poo up the thread. Having it just be a discussion thread would still allow and encourage people engaging in good faith who want to learn about issues--LionArcher would be a good example.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 05:47
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:I think those differences are so minimal that it's not any sort of real bar. Outside of that the military is going to adjust fights requirements based on how wide they want to recruit. It would be some edge cases, and probably not worth the effort. Seemed like a more real world problem, if you want to call it that, than sporting events. As far as everything else goes, we've been briefed that the servicemember will be treated as whatever gender is listed in their records. Once they officially are changed in the system, that's what they're supposed to be treated as.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 05:52
|
|
|
PeterCat posted:It is a competition. Your PT score adds to your promotion points. More promotions points means you get promoted ahead of other people competing for the same promotion. If you have 2 people who are otherwise equal in schools and performance and one has a higher score on the PT test, they are going to get promoted first. The test maxes out though, so it's not really a competition in the sense that the word commonly implies because the promotion doesn't go to the fastest person. A woman who scores a 100 on the run for her sex and age is not going to be disadvantaged for promotion even if she's up against The Flash who can run 2 miles in 1 second because they will both get 100 points on the run, so it's not like all the transwomen will get promoted past all the cis women. If it's between two people who aren't fast enough to max the run, and the promotion turns on the difference between a 90 and a 95 okay I guess, but in that case shouldn't we be concerned about other genetic factors that also give people inherent advantages at running why only this. E: Getting a 100% on the run is also not particularly onerous and just takes some dedication to training for it, so it's not really a competition so much as a test of your determination. When I was in, a perfect score for an 18-year-old MAN was a 13 minute 2-mile (and that's still true) College track teams for WOMEN have higher standards than that. Arguably the whole thing doesn't make sense and it's kind of silly so if we are criticizing anything it should be having the PT test count for promotion in the first place, but if we aren't questioning that, then at the end of the day if you're not wanting to put in the effort to max the run why are you complaining that somebody else did better. The only thing stopping someone in good health from getting a perfect score is themselves, no one else is stealing it from them. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 07:08 on Apr 10, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 06:08
|
|
|
Fritz the Horse posted:I don't think the OP's intention was ever for this to be an actual debate thread. As pointed out, there is really only one answer and by setting it up as a yes/no debate we invite bigots to poo poo up the thread. Having it just be a discussion thread would still allow and encourage people engaging in good faith who want to learn about issues--LionArcher would be a good example. You're right, this isn't a debate. I have a bunch of citations that I was prepared to bust out if needed, but literally nobody ever got even close to that level. I already stated earlier in the thread what my intention was: Jaxyon posted:My hope was that this thread would involve people making misguided but at least vaguely logical arguments against, and then getting disproven with the science. I also hoped that a couple of transphobes would out themselves, and then get instantly nuked from orbit for that bullshit. However what actually happened was a failure of moderation on a scale that I never imagined and is honestly embarrassing and disturbing. Any other decent forum on the internet this transphobic poo poo is a permaban or as other places call it "an IP ban" because nobody does temporary bans on bigots but this place. And so help me if I get a probation for posting a thread that turned into a honeypot while the bigots get to come back and post I will lose my poo poo. "black people are bred for athletics" and the guy gets 3 days for "discussion practices". THREE DAYS. DISCUSSION PRACTICES. Get your loving poo poo together mod team. gently caress
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 07:08
|
|
|
oh i just looked at trollogist's rap sheet what in the actual gently caress is wrong with this forum
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 07:11
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:I also hoped that a couple of transphobes would out themselves, and then get instantly nuked from orbit for that bullshit. This aint my forum to look over and I dont want to step on the D&D mod team toes but I'll say this particular incident is being discussed, 3 days is not the end of it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 07:28
|
|
|
CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:This aint my forum to look over and I dont want to step on the D&D mod team toes but I'll say this particular incident is being discussed, 3 days is not the end of it. We're all very proud of you, and we're looking forward to a very lengthy evaluation period that results in their re-regs being back in a week.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 07:34
|
|
|
Fritz the Horse posted:Thoughts on rebooting this thread or at least renaming it to be more of a general discussion on trans and LGBTQ+ issues? We (queer folks broadly) are unfortunately a main focus of right-wing reactionaries in the US and elsewhere and with US midterm elections coming up there's going to be a lot of awful bills, statements from politicians etc. Instead of doing any of this just permaban the transphobes please
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 07:56
|
|
|
Booourns posted:Instead of doing any of this just permaban the transphobes please 
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 07:58
|
|
|
Booourns posted:Instead of doing any of this just permaban the transphobes please PM an admin of your choice or Jeff, permabans are decided at the admin level. Mods can offer recommendations and I suggest you reach out to admins and do the same. There's not really anything else I or other mods can do at this point other than chain probe if it takes longer than 24h to hear back from the admin team.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 08:10
|
|
|
Booourns posted:Instead of doing any of this just permaban the transphobes please
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 08:26
|
|
|
fluffdaddy pushed the button, rest in piss edit: as it says in the probe reason, they were also being a shithead via PMs so I'm glad that went through quickly Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 08:43 on Apr 10, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 08:38
|
|
|
While I think people shouldn't be permad or even banned for having bad or even somewhat vile opinions, the threshold is when you think it's acceptable to debate about a minority groups right to exist. There is nothing to debate and there is no nuance there. I question why this thread exist in this sub to begin with.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 09:02
|
|
|
Fluffdaddy posted:While I think people shouldn't be permad or even banned for having bad or even somewhat vile opinions, the threshold is when you think it's acceptable to debate about a minority groups right to exist. There is nothing to debate and there is no nuance there. Uh fluff this thread clearly shows that people in this subforum do in fact think that whether or not trans individuals have unfair advantages in athletic competitions is something that has nuance or is up for debate. Hell, it's not just bigoted shitheads that think that sort of thing! Like I would love if every person in dnd considered such a matter an open and shut case, but that ain't how it is. What choice do we have but to have threads like this? That's not the sort of problem that fixes itself!
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 09:47
|
|
|
why the gently caress are there checks and balances on permabanning transphobes
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 10:00
|
|
|
Like I confess I'm somewhat taken aback by that statement. Do you mind elaborating why you think this sort of thread should not exist in dnd?
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 10:01
|
|
|
I'll cop to being ignorant but threads like this are good bc reading more knowledgeable posters helps me understand the logic behind letting trans folks compete without restrictions. It's nice to hear some of the rebuttals to the common arguments from transphobe crowds.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 10:39
|
|
|
Fluffdaddy posted:While I think people shouldn't be permad or even banned for having bad or even somewhat vile opinions, the threshold is when you think it's acceptable to debate about a minority groups right to exist. There is nothing to debate and there is no nuance there. That grace has to end when someone is engaging in bigotry AND harassing people who are pushing back against their bigotry, especially when they deploy bigotry as part of their harassment toolkit. I'd like to requote one of the PM's Aginor's sent: Aginor posted:
With the transphobia? Accusing a trans person of been trans so they can avoid sexual assault charges? This isn't just vile harassment, its a violent physical threat. It's saying "I am going to go away from here and incite real world people to street violence, I am going to go away from here and help organize systemic violence against, because I'm an angry transphobe and how dare you talk like this to me. I know the lies to deploy to get other people to attack you on my behalf." It's a seriously scary threat, and its a seriously legitimate violent threat. You need to permaban this poster as well. Rob Filter fucked around with this message at 12:20 on Apr 10, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 11:02
|
|
|
Internaut! posted:Biological males have no business competing athletically against biological females in any sport where the indisputable physical advantages of males is a factor, for example sprinting versus curling. Internaut! posted:Males in general are significantly stronger and faster than females, there is no debate about this in any serious circle. This does not even address transgender athletics much less make a statement about them. Whether they are a bully who targets vulnerable people because bigoted harassment is the most effective way to distress people, or they are a bigot who bullies vulnerable people with bigoted harassment because they want to hurt the targets of their hate doesn't matter for the purposes of moderation. Their effect on the forums is the same. They need to be permabanned, or they will do this exact same thing on their main when it gets off probation cooldown. I understand that trolling is a neutral literary device, and that SA as a comedy site has people troll for jokes. Not all trolling is unethical. For example, me coming into a python thread to concern troll about how the posters should actually be using visual basic and cobol to code operating systems. However, when trolls deploy bigotry to harass the targets of that bigotry, they aren't engaging in comedy and failing, they are engaging in hate and succeeding. Trolling + been boring = sixer. Trolling + bigotry + the trolling is specifically targeting the people attacked by that bigotry = permaban.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 11:59
|
|
|
A big flaming stink posted:Like I confess I'm somewhat taken aback by that statement. Do you mind elaborating why you think this sort of thread should not exist in dnd? Because trans men are men and trans women are women. There is really no debate to be had. Sports being used as a metric of "what is fair or not fair" is a smoke screen for transphobia, even if the person is sincerely having doubts.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 12:38
|
|
|
Rob Filter posted:I have sympathy for ignorant people who accidentally get taught harmful and dangerous myths by dangerous bigots, and then propagate it. Like, they are a vector for the myth, they are doing real harm and need to stop, but fundamentally the intervention they need is a paragraph of text explaining how they got duped into doing bigotry by willful bigots. That person was permabanned yesterday? What are you talking about?
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 12:41
|
|
|
Fluffdaddy posted:That person was permabanned yesterday? What are you talking about? edit: https://forums.somethingawful.com/banlist.php?userid=82303 <- this is Aginor's probation sheet, it doesn't show a permaban. You may have confused the abusive PM's Aginor sent for been something Trollologist sent. Or trollologist ALSO sent abusive PM's; worth checking who did what on the backend. Rob Filter fucked around with this message at 12:50 on Apr 10, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 12:43
|
|
|
A big flaming stink posted:Like I confess I'm somewhat taken aback by that statement. Do you mind elaborating why you think this sort of thread should not exist in dnd? Change the subject to something like "should black athletes be allowed to compete?" and there isn't really anything to discuss. The answer is yes of course. All the concerns are usually just a way to be racist. Yes there are people in good faith that will be accidentally transphobic but usually it's obvious and then the thread no longer becomes a debate and more of just educating the people who genuinely think "trans women are women" means "trans women are women*"
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 12:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 14:24 |
|
|
Rob Filter posted:Ah, apologies, I was confused by the bug that shows their avatar as probated for 28 days instead of perma'd. Actually my apologies, the perma wasn't sent yet. I will fix that as soon as I get on my computer
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 12:46
|
|