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Apr 5, 2022 21:57
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Because this appears to the the culture war issue du jour that's being used as red meat to excite the bigots, I thought it would be good to have a thread to discuss this and consolidate information, misinformation, and data regarding this issue. In general, the current event relevant here is the win of swimmer Lia Thomas, a transgender woman, in the NCAA 500m Freestyle. She's an incredibly brave athlete to have competed and won during a time when many states and local areas are using scare tactics to target transgender women for discrimination and specific culture war laws. I'll expand this post as needed. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Apr 5, 2022 |
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Apr 5, 2022 21:58
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Resources: https://www.glsen.org/activity/gender-affirming-inclusive-athletics-participation https://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/policy/issues/transgender-exclusion-sports https://www.ncaa.org/news/2021/4/26/ncaa-transgender-policy-background-resources.aspx https://www.transathlete.com/policies-by-organization(list of guidelines of various organizations) Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Apr 5, 2022 |
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Apr 5, 2022 21:58
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Is there any general polls out about the issue? My default assumption is that America is hell country and the average American just being insanely cruel and stupid makes it a losing proposition electorally.
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Apr 5, 2022 22:11
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the fact that trans femme athletes do not finish overwhelmingly at the very top of their sports is enough proof to know that talk about "unfair advantages" is complete bunk.
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Apr 5, 2022 22:14
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Jaxyon posted:Because this appears to the the culture war issue du jour that's being used as red meat to excite the bigots the only workshopping happening in the institution of american conservatism is figuring out which topic between this and "people can learn about racism" is the most effective at hatebonering the base into voting booths
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Apr 5, 2022 22:17
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A big flaming stink posted:the fact that trans femme athletes do not finish overwhelmingly at the very top of their sports is enough proof to know that talk about "unfair advantages" is complete bunk. Your average cis woman tends to have a higher testosterone level, too
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Apr 5, 2022 22:20
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I'm someone who was slightly sympathetic to the argument that there need to be rules and regulations regarding where and how trans-women can compete in sports, because it seemed so obvious that people who go through male-puberty will, on a large enough scale, end up with some physical differences that could prove advantageous in sport compared to people who go through female-puberty. (please pardon me if my terminology is wrong, I acknowledge my ignorance). But that was my thought years ago, and I have since changed it to: who the gently caress cares? Here are a few things that influenced my change of mind: 1. What are the stakes? This varies hugely by individual and social group and cultural group. For me, personally, I'm not a sports guy by any means and so I really never gave any of a poo poo about the sanctity of sports rules and records and history. I can see how other people see the world much differently, though. I think it's probably widely agreed that the stakes in sports vary according to the type of event (so, say from like pee-wee middle school baseball to division 1 high school state championships to professional national leagues to the Olympics to the World Cup). But there's no objective measurement of stakes, because individuals' will hold each and every level of sport to wildly different personal standards, stakes-wise. I personally couldn't give less of a flying gently caress about who wins and loses in high school sports, it should all be in good fun as far as I care, but clearly there are people out there who take it super seriously and care about those sports more than anything else in the world. Hard to square that circle. Anyway, realizing that the stakes are low and none of it actually matters outside of people having fun really took the wind out of any sympathy I had, personally. But, that solved the issue for me and clearly it's not a solved issue societally. I've found the following argument the most persuasive the few times I've had to make it: 2. Where's the problem? Where are all the trans-women pushing women out of cis-women's sports? I certainly haven't seen this become an issue anywhere as far as I'm aware. I've found that I've made headway with some folks using this line of reasoning: Let the trans folks compete as who they are, and we can evaluate five or ten years down the line to see if it has become an issue or not. Heck, if 10 years from now we actually *did* see all the womens teams and leagues full of majority trans-women to the exclusion of cis-women then I'd honestly be sympathetic to some sort of regulation. But that's not something that's happening now, hasn't happened yet, and until and unless it does happen then it's not really a 'problem' that needs to be solved. Just some thoughts from somebody who was raised in the blood-drinking heart of Evangelicism and is trying to be a better person. e: corrected some terminology How are u fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Apr 6, 2022 |
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Apr 5, 2022 22:22
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Apr 5, 2022 22:26
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A big flaming stink posted:the fact that trans femme athletes do not finish overwhelmingly at the very top of their sports is enough proof to know that talk about "unfair advantages" is complete bunk. Lia was actually beaten in the 100 by a transgender man. He has not undergone any medical transition/affirmation and competes in the women's category.
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Apr 5, 2022 22:33
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How are u posted:2. Where's the problem? Where are all the trans-women pushing women out of women's sports? I certainly haven't seen this become an issue anywhere as far as I'm aware. I've found that I've made headway with some folks using this line of reasoning: Let the trans folks compete as who they are, and we can evaluate five or ten years down the line to see if it has become an issue or not. Heck, if 10 years from now we actually *did* see all the womens teams and leagues full of majority trans-women to the exclusion of women then I'd honestly be sympathetic to some sort of regulation. But that's not something that's happening now, hasn't happened yet, and until and unless it does happen then it's not really a 'problem' that needs to be solved. We've already allowed transgender women to compete for 10 or more years at the top levels of sport. None have dominated any sport. Much like the bathroom issue, it's non-issue that's already resolved that is being used to fire up people who don't know anything and are bigoted towards transgender people. I remember all the people who were big mad about the weight lifter in the summer Olympics who was going to beat everyone with her powerful man-bones, only to just memory hole her when she didn't win or even come close.
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Apr 6, 2022 00:55
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Apr 6, 2022 01:31
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Sports is dumb and should be left to private institutions outside of health protection, employment, gambling, and equipment regulations. I do support provisions for trans and NB athletes under health protection. The rest I think is a discussion that needs to happen between sports organizing bodies and health experts, not culture warriors with answers pre-picked. From what i have seen the difference in any given year is something like ~110 under 18 athletes that could possibly gain big by topping that years charts. The bigger difference is in athletes in their prime from 18-28, but by then all that's left are the freaks of nature who are already far above average. no one whose made it that far really needs to cheat in such a public way. And even if they did at that point its into private organizing bodies not schools. Stop letting your taxes subsidize premium cables content. Barrel Cactaur fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Apr 6, 2022 |
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Apr 6, 2022 02:04
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My husband chatted with me about this the other day when it made the rounds on TikTok as a story, and I think what we concluded is that the best argument to be made is that, if "fairness" is the concern, the real solution is to pick divisions other than sex/gender. There are plenty of sports that are divided by weight class or what-have-you, if people want competitors to be on an equal playing field it makes more sense to divide into classes based on height or wingspan or whatever other characteristic directly relates to the mechanics of the sport. Using something like hormone levels as your cutoff is asinine, because groups overlap considerably and it isn't like it is some static value across an individual's lifespan. You could maybe complain that creating too many divisions would reduce interest in the sports, but the gender divide has already screwed that up anyway, since basically every professional male sport gets an order of magnitude more viewership than the same sport played by women (at least in the US).
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Apr 6, 2022 02:13
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Correct answer, thread complete.
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Apr 6, 2022 02:25
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How are u posted:Heck, if 10 years from now we actually *did* see all the womens teams and leagues full of majority trans-women to the exclusion of women then I'd honestly be sympathetic to some sort of regulation. Why? Does this part have something to do with it? How are u posted:full of majority trans-women to the exclusion of women
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Apr 6, 2022 02:47
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I love how this issue makes chuds go full mask-off and corncob themselves 
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Apr 6, 2022 02:57
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Imagine having to tell little Suzie she wont be able to go to college, and will instead be condemned to poverty and starvation because a trans woman ran 100 meters .01 seconds faster than her. Now imagine your little Cody loses the state hockey championship, because the other team filled the entire goal with a CRISPR'd up Akira. This is the future evolutionists want. To be a little more serious, I am actually much more concerned about CRISPR than trans sports-persons, just because, in the US it will just be another way to keep a perpetual underclass.
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Apr 6, 2022 03:38
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Apr 6, 2022 05:14
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it would be "funny" if people started taking the anti-trans-in-sport argument to its logical extreme: the paralympics should only be open to athletes with congenital physical disabilities
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Apr 6, 2022 07:02
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exmarx posted:it would be "funny" if people started taking the anti-trans-in-sport argument to its logical extreme: the paralympics should only be open to athletes with congenital physical disabilities Holy false equivalencies, Batman
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Apr 6, 2022 07:30
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How are u posted:all the womens teams and leagues full of majority trans-women to the exclusion of women loving excuse me? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 6, 2022 08:19
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Please consider the opposite view:
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Apr 6, 2022 14:29
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It's never been about fairness, it's just a way for CHUDs to poo poo on another group of people while also claiming the moral high ground because they're "protecting women." If the issue is biological advantages, why does it stop at the sexes? Michael Phelps is the most decorated Olympian of all time at least in part because of several genetic abnormalities that offered him significant advantages in his sport that were above and beyond what many of his contemporaries enjoyed with their own bodies. Yet that vast biological advantage is perfectly fine because both he and his fellow competitors have dicks or some poo poo. This anti-trans poo poo makes my blood boil.
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Apr 6, 2022 14:54
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Why not have 2 categories for sport? "open" and "female"?
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Apr 6, 2022 16:08
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Or just 1?
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Apr 6, 2022 16:10
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If it's about fairness it's not I think the real issue is left-handed people in baseball. Ban those sick filth.
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Apr 6, 2022 16:15
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some plague rats posted:loving excuse me? ...sorry?
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Apr 6, 2022 16:16
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Also, as I like to point out, forcing trans women to compete as men also means forcing trans men to compete as women. Now obviously that's not going to matter to the dyed in the wool actively hateful transphobes, because a) trans men don't exist to them and b) their ultimate goal is for all trans people to stop existing. But it can be useful to convince the stupid squishy centrists who are sympathetic to trans people but "well, you know, I have some concerns about fairness". It's what convinced me to drop that poo poo, so it's worked at least once 
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Apr 6, 2022 16:17
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I've seen transphobes cite this article as proof that trans people shouldn't be allowed in sport https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577.full?ijkey=yjlCzZVZFRDZzHz&keytype=ref but it actually shows that there's no advantage in performance after just 1-2 years of treatment except for running, which declined and might further decline with time. So it seems like a pretty easy choice. Politically though it seems like it's bait for chuds and more conservative dems.
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Apr 6, 2022 16:19
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mobby_6kl posted:I've seen transphobes cite this article as proof that trans people shouldn't be allowed in sport https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577.full?ijkey=yjlCzZVZFRDZzHz&keytype=ref Yes get familiar with "12%" because that study is one of the only ones in existence that shows any sort of advantage at all and the bigots will use it as a bludgeon til the end of time. Hipster Occultist posted:It's never been about fairness, it's just a way for CHUDs to poo poo on another group of people while also claiming the moral high ground because they're "protecting women." Absolutely this. It's so NOT about fairness that if you actually try to address the fairness argument they'll just get confused and angry as to why you're talking about anything but making GBS threads on this one group. It's also why they have zero issues with transgender men.
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Apr 6, 2022 17:27
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How are u posted:...sorry? love to casually post in D&D, the serious forum, that transwomen aren't women
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Apr 6, 2022 17:34
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How are u posted:...sorry? Transgender women are women.
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Apr 6, 2022 17:38
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Jaxyon posted:Transgender women are women. Yes, I agree.
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Apr 6, 2022 17:44
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How are u posted:Yes, I agree. If 10 years from now the majority of women's sports teams were filled by transwomen, would you be sympathetic to some sort of anti-transwomen regulation?
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Apr 6, 2022 17:53
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Bear Enthusiast posted:If it's about fairness it's not I think the real issue is left-handed people in baseball. Ban those sick filth. That touches on a relevant point: Sports, particularly at the higher levels, plain aren't fair. There are dozens if not hundreds of external and internal factors that will give one competitor an advantage over another. Wealth is a big obvious one, for a start. A wealthy athlete will have more time to devote to their training, with better facilities and trainers, and that's often reflected in the backgrounds of many top athletes. Physiological factors naturally also play into it, of course. Height, width, hypermobility, overall proportions, hormone levels, and so on can all make a major difference depending on your discipline. Michael Phelps is a common example in this case, as he's basically a walking set of ideal genetic factors for swimming fast. The thing is that when you look at top athletes in the Olympics or whatever, they aren't just there because they trained the hardest and devoted themselves the most. They're also there because they have the right background to even have a shot at it in the first place. For every gold medalist, there are thousands of people who never ever had a chance to get anywhere near the top because they weren't born in the right conditions. Society has just sort of accepted this degree of unfairness as "natural", but it's an arbitrary line, as is the separation by gender. To ban trans athletes is just saying "All this unfairness is fine, but that (likely fairly insignificant and possibly nonexistent) unfairness isn't!", which makes it very clear that this whole thing is entirely about attacking trans people, and not about fairness. As if it weren't already.
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Apr 6, 2022 18:00
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Verus posted:If 10 years from now the majority of women's sports teams were filled by transwomen, would you be sympathetic to some sort of anti-transwomen regulation? I'd be sympathetic to taking a look at why that is, yeah. I can't imagine its something that would happen, it certainly doesn't seem to be happening, but if, say for example, sometime in the future 90% of the players in the NWSL were trans then it would be something worth looking at. Probably looking at re-categorizing the way we separate sports divisions rather than denying people who they are.
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Apr 6, 2022 18:02
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We know this is a serious issue because of the hundreds of gold medals won by transgender athletes. Wait, I’m now hearing that this isn’t actually a thing that happens, and that anyone complaining about this is just using this as a pulpit for their bigoted views??? Huh imagine that!!
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Apr 6, 2022 18:05
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How are u posted:Yes, I agree. It doesn't seem like you do, considering you just specified "trans women" and "women" as two separate categories that can be in conflict with each other?
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Apr 6, 2022 18:32
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some plague rats posted:It doesn't seem like you do, considering you just specified "trans women" and "women" as two separate categories that can be in conflict with each other? I apologize for the confusion. I should probably be saying "cis-women", right? My mistake.
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Apr 6, 2022 18:45
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