|
Sedisp posted:Change the subject to something like "should black athletes be allowed to compete?" and there isn't really anything to discuss. The answer is yes of course. All the concerns are usually just a way to be racist. Yes there are people in good faith that will be accidentally transphobic but usually it's obvious and then the thread no longer becomes a debate and more of just educating the people who genuinely think "trans women are women" means "trans women are women*" oh yeah i get that, im more refering to the fact that the response to this thread clearly shows why it is necessary for it to exist. Like I said, it would be great if everyone was of one mind on this but that is not the world we live in
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 12:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 16:55 |
|
|
A big flaming stink posted:oh yeah i get that, im more refering to the fact that the response to this thread clearly shows why it is necessary for it to exist. Like I said, it would be great if everyone was of one mind on this but that is not the world we live in I guess I come from the mindset that minorities are not here to educate their oppressors. That's a lot of unfair emotional labor.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 12:50
|
|
|
Fluffdaddy posted:Actually my apologies, the perma wasn't sent yet. I will fix that as soon as I get on my computer All good. Just in case you didn't see my final edit: You may have confused the abusive PM's Aginor sent for something Trollologist sent. Or trollologist ALSO sent abusive PM's; might be worth talking with other mods to check what happened exactly on the backend.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 12:53
|
|
|
Rob Filter posted:All good. They both did. It's been a Rollercoaster of horrible people sending horrible PMs these last few days.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 12:54
|
|
|
Fluffdaddy posted:I guess I come from the mindset that minorities are not hear to educate their oppressors. That's a lot of unfair emotional labor. Agreed cis people unfortunately give very little fucks about us and our entire population in the country is slightly smaller than the city of boston so we're not getting to be a Democrats favorite minority anytime soon. Like Joe Biden is unironically the most trans friendly president in... history? And it's not close. If we don't do it nobody else will. A big flaming stink posted:oh yeah i get that, im more refering to the fact that the response to this thread clearly shows why it is necessary for it to exist. Like I said, it would be great if everyone was of one mind on this but that is not the world we live in Yeah that's fair. Still more of a fan of making it a general discussion ask your questions here are answers. That's both useful in educating the curious and honeypotting the transphobes!
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 12:55
|
|
|
Fluffdaddy posted:They both did. It's been a Rollercoaster of horrible people sending horrible PMs these last few days. Well drat.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 12:55
|
|
|
When I taught debating to high schoolers, a principle for how we picked topics was “reasonable people can reasonably disagree.” I am ‘new’ to D&D culture but “I wanted to make a honeypot for transphobes” seems like a bad basis for a debate or discussion thread.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 13:08
|
|
|
A trans or LGBT thread like fritz said that's focused on the absolute horrid poo poo that the gop is pushing through to attack, and basically destroy lives for LGBT and specifically trans people would be beneficial, there's so much poo poo that is happening that is drowned out in the current trashheap of US current events. Just the absolute child abuse of the Texas CPS, and the other state that just made it a criminal felony to give trans kids puberty blockers alone is worth having a thread for to provide updates and things that need to be shared. Saying that this is up for debate is ignoring that this is meant to be a subforum that provides information and more indepth discussion on things, and DnD has not always been about debating things, many times its for providing actual facts and research much like this thread started out as. before every dumbfuck decided that this is the best place to come show their rear end (as a honeypot its worked wonders but goddamn no one deserves to be attacked by them) And honestly, I agree with fritz, an actual thread dedicated to LGBT issues right now and how badly they are being attacked by craven assholes would be better then trying to find updates or new attacks between the newest relitigation of whatever US current events is
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 13:14
|
|
|
Fluffdaddy posted:I guess I come from the mindset that minorities are not here to educate their oppressors. That's a lot of unfair emotional labor. hey its not like im going to have to stop having to explain how i identify in exacting detail for the rest of my life, lol.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 13:16
|
|
|
Known malefactors need to be banned on sight. And honestly goons are good at spitting out facts about why someone is wrong after they get probated. If something like that should happen, mods need to be really on their toes and allow it to be a space run by LGBT folk instead of people looking for a debate coliseum.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 13:28
|
|
|
Shageletic posted:Known malefactors need to be banned on sight. And honestly goons are good at spitting out facts about why someone is wrong after they get probated. If something like that should happen, mods need to be really on their toes and allow it to be a space run by LGBT folk instead of people looking for a debate coliseum. transphobes should be banned on sight, theres no difference from them to anyone else that says a minority doesnt deserve to exist or deserves to be treated like poo poo. This isn't a soft line, its something that literally has been a huge cultural change on this forum for the last half a decade with many goons transitioning and coming out as who they are. Irregardless of anything else with this forum, there's no fine line, there's no compromise, this shouldn't debate in any part of the forum and any goon, mod, or admin that thinks so needs to be removed. Again, the op made an amazing first post that could have been an excellent starting point to talk about the issues currently facing trans athletes, and we actively had numerous people posting some of their experiences especially their experience with how hormones made many of the claims by the moral outrage idiots false. The major issue here was that there apparently an idea that its ok to have both sides poo poo at all, instead of having the mods stamp it down hard from the get go because there's this harebrained idea that DND is all about debate when in fact its not. DnD is not just about debate, theres ample threads here that arent that. Hell one of the best threads for a long time was the presidential thread which literally is a massive book sized project with so much info. There is absolutely no reason this thread can't exist here except for the dumb idea that everything has to allow both sides bullshit like cable news.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 13:38
|
|
|
Honestly I didn't know that the competitive money leagues in any sport religiously test hormone levels and poo poo so at least I got something out of this shitshow.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 13:51
|
|
|
Fluffdaddy posted:Because trans men are men and trans women are women. There is really no debate to be had. Sports being used as a metric of "what is fair or not fair" is a smoke screen for transphobia, even if the person is sincerely having doubts. Fluffdaddy posted:I guess I come from the mindset that minorities are not here to educate their oppressors. That's a lot of unfair emotional labor. Thank you, yes, these sort of unequivocal statements and actions are good, I appreciate you.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 14:47
|
|
|
While minorities are not here to educate their oppressors, I think this is a better space for those questions than the trans thread for trans posters to post in. And that it is a good to have a space. They are going to be asked somewhere and it is good to have a place where people feel safe to ask and can receive correction about their misconceptions while not allowing bigots to answer their questions with lies. If no trans people feel comfortable addressing errors made by good faith explanations from cis people we should shut it down, but so far it seems things are going well im that regard. I'd like tie that idea back to the critique of the "if x happens then we will need to reevaluate" where x is any thing that will never happen because it's not how things work. Here of course that thing, that will never happen, is trans women taking all or a large disproportion of spots in women's sports and cis women feeling like they have no space as a result. That will not happen, but if it somehow did it would be a cause for concern. It is good to acknowledge a falsifiable hypothetical. I think I understand the perceived danger, we present this hypothetical that won't happen and some lying bigot kramers in to shout that it is already happening. But it's not happening or one of the lying bigots would have found statistical evidence to support it. Defining this hypothetical condition under which the principal (not of trans women being women, but competitive advantage of trans women in sport and a theoretical unfairness to cis women) can be proven is useful, because bigots are always dressing their arguments up as science but it's very easy to show that the science doesn't support their view because we've defined evidence where science might minimally support their presented "I'm just concerned about cis women" and they can't show it does. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Apr 10, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 15:43
|
|
Shageletic posted:Known malefactors need to be banned on sight. And honestly goons are good at spitting out facts about why someone is wrong after they get probated. If something like that should happen, mods need to be really on their toes and allow it to be a space run by LGBT folk instead of people looking for a debate coliseum. ofc everyone talks about the malefactors, but never about the femalefactors smh Also getting too lost in the woods in the pedantry of 'how much debating must there be to justify existing in this subforum' is pointless and dumb. You can absolutely discuss the common arguments used against LGBT rights and how to counter them and show they are stupid and bad. People are allowed to ask questions about it if they don't fully understand or know something.
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 16:12
|
|
|
BougieBitch posted:My husband chatted with me about this the other day when it made the rounds on TikTok as a story, and I think what we concluded is that the best argument to be made is that, if "fairness" is the concern, the real solution is to pick divisions other than sex/gender. There are plenty of sports that are divided by weight class or what-have-you, if people want competitors to be on an equal playing field it makes more sense to divide into classes based on height or wingspan or whatever other characteristic directly relates to the mechanics of the sport. Using something like hormone levels as your cutoff is asinine, because groups overlap considerably and it isn't like it is some static value across an individual's lifespan. Yeah. If anyone actually cared about any sports at all a solution could be to create divisions based on factors such as bone-density etc, if that's what chuds keep complaining about. Having a gender divide has always felt weird to me, and sometimes it exists in stuff like Chess which is pretty funny. Yet another solution is no divisions whatsoever, just one huge pool of participants. But honestly the solutions are silly because nobody actually cares about any of this, myself included. It's just more of the outrage machine and the opinion machine. Both tools of oppression and control. Nearly identical situation as bathroom outrage but even less relatable. thehandtruck fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Apr 10, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 16:14
|
|
|
thehandtruck posted:Yeah. If anyone actually cared about any sports at all a solution could be to create divisions based on factors such as bone-density etc, if that's what chuds keep complaining about. Having a gender divide has always felt weird to me, and sometimes it exists in stuff like Chess which is pretty funny. Yet another solution is no divisions whatsoever, just one huge pool of participants. Its the same, tired story: Nearly all gender divisions in sports is about "We can't have A GIRL showing up our top male athletes/chess players/shooters/etc." Its almost entirely misogyny wrapped up in statistical gamesmanship about "Natural advantages"
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 16:20
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Its the same, tired story: Nearly all gender divisions in sports is about "We can't have A GIRL showing up our top male athletes/chess players/shooters/etc." That's not really true. For skill sports, I'm sure there's a bunch of additional nonsense. In many sports elite women just straight-up can not compete for the podium with elite men, so the gender division provides a competitive field. The women's world record marathon is 2:14:04, and that time was 23nd overall in the race in which it was set.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 16:38
|
|
|
BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:That's not really true. For skill sports, I'm sure there's a bunch of additional nonsense. In many sports elite women just straight-up can not compete for the podium with elite men, so the gender division provides a competitive field. The women's world record marathon is 2:14:04, and that time was 23nd overall in the race in which it was set. Maybe for some fields, but chess? And to be fair: that doesn't mean women should not be allowed to compete on the level, the idea that the gender boundaries are requirements rather than suggestions makes it clear its about more than leveling the playing field. If women wish to compete in those fields, they should be allowed to.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 16:41
|
|
|
LGBTQ rights are an important issue and there should be a thread about it. The specific rules regarding this or that sport should maybe be discussed in the sport's thread or the chess thread or whatever. It muddies the waters and frankly at this point I personally could care less about the international chess association's bylaws than the ongoing attempts to destroy trans people in the United States.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 16:51
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:
In all sports? What about combat sports? Should a heavyweight woman be allowed to compete against say a heavyweight man in UFC? Or boxing? Nice on paper that women should be allowed to compete where they want but I don't think this works for certain sports that involve combat or contact. But yes in other sports sure, certain sports like the 100m etc they'd never qualify but they should be able to attempt with the men.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 17:18
|
|
|
Just Chamber posted:In all sports? What about combat sports? Should a heavyweight woman be allowed to compete against say a heavyweight man in UFC? Or boxing? See what I mean? This belongs in the combat sports thread.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 17:20
|
|
|
Just Chamber posted:In all sports? What about combat sports? Should a heavyweight woman be allowed to compete against say a heavyweight man in UFC? Or boxing? If they want to: Let them! Are you seriously arguing that the decision should be made for them because "A man might beat up a woman"? This reeks of "That weak woman might get beat up by a strong man" and that's straight up misogyny.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 17:21
|
|
|
Sharkie posted:See what I mean? This belongs in the combat sports thread. Why not this thread? Seems weird. Regarding allowing things, people should be able to engage in certain consensual activities within reasonable bounds. If it's not reasonable to have smaller people fight bigger people, that's fine. But strict gender division is not automatically reasonable.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 17:28
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:If they want to: Let them! Are you seriously arguing that the decision should be made for them because "A man might beat up a woman"? Divisions exist in combat sports mainly for weight because it is a safety issue to have 250 lb anybody fighting a 150 lb anybody. There are probably women who can compete against men at the same weight class but I think testosterone plays a huge part in muscle development the heavier you get. Which is why it'd put a trans athlete at a huge disadvantage if they were force to compete against their pre transistion gender.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 17:33
|
|
|
Harold Fjord posted:Why not this thread? Seems weird. Well it's just my opinion but it seems way way down on the list of Important Things compared to things like what's going on in Alabama and so on. It's a focus on what's really a pretty niche topic - the first post in this thread should have been the end of it, but now it's not even about trans athletes, it's about.... should women athletes be in the same categories as men, which is a whole other issue. edit: a whole other issue than trans rights. Basically missing the forest for the trees Sharkie fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Apr 10, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 17:36
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:If they want to: Let them! Are you seriously arguing that the decision should be made for them because "A man might beat up a woman"? If you want to put the strongest world heavyweight man, say 6'7 117kg Tyson Fury against a female boxer, if you can find one that is similar weight and height and he's allowed to punch her with all of his incredible strength I'm sure that will go well and her punches and strength will be at all equal to his (they won't) . It just doesn't work. It's quite probable a 5 ft something male boxer will punch an awful lot harder than a 6 ft something female boxer, how do you account for this? The whole point of combat sports organised into gender divisions is that roughly a 6ft tall male boxer will be more or less equal in strength to a similar boxer of his height, weight and gender allowing the other boxer to not get absolutely destroyed and possibly given brain damage just like if Tyson fury went up against a 5ft5 male boxer who was likely half his weight also. But yes that's just misogyny... Just Chamber fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Apr 10, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 17:36
|
|
|
Just Chamber posted:If you want to put the strongest world heavyweight man, say 6'7 Tyson Fury against a female boxer, if you can find one that is similar weight and height and he's allowed to punch her with all of his incredible strength I'm sure that will go well and her punches and strength will be at all equal to his (they won't) . It just doesn't work. It's quite probable a 5 ft something male boxer will punch an awful lot harder than a 6 ft something female boxer, how do you account for this? The whole point of combat sports organised into gender divisions is that roughly a 6ft tall male boxer will be more or less equal in strength to a similar boxer of his height and weight allowing the other boxer to not get absolutely destroyed and possibly given brain damage just like if Tyson fury went up against a 5ft5 male boxer who was likely half his weight also. Who decides that? The competitor or the competition? If a trans or female competitor decides they wish to try their hand, why are we to stop them? You openly compete in a sport where bodily harm is possible, pretending that were trying to prevent such by placing artificial barriers isn't helpful. Its placing some air of 'responsibility' in a sport that already breeds and flourishes in irresponsibility. Frankly, I don't think Combat sports are legit sports anyways, but I also don't think its their right to create some crappy gender boundaries. And don't pretend there isn't some misogyny involved in this. I am 100% willing to bet you ask any of these guys if they would fight against a non-gendered or opposite gendered player, we'd get quite an earful.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 17:41
|
|
|
thehandtruck posted:Yeah. If anyone actually cared about any sports at all a solution could be to create divisions based on factors such as bone-density etc, if that's what chuds keep complaining about. Having a gender divide has always felt weird to me, and sometimes it exists in stuff like Chess which is pretty funny. Yet another solution is no divisions whatsoever, just one huge pool of participants. My first reaction to this was "Wait, what? Chess is segregated by gender?" After looking into it for all of thirty seconds - I'm not really that interested in chess - my conclusion is that chess is only partly segregated. Maybe chess used to be different, but today the biggest professional tournaments are open to both genders. It's just that very few women compete in these tournaments, and the ones who do almost never earn a high rank. Meanwhile, there are some smaller, women-only professional chess tournaments. This article is from 2018 but it does go in depth on the issue, with fascinating stories about high-level female chess players. https://www.si.com/more-sports/2018/12/17/lisa-lane-hou-yifan-womens-chess-gender-inequality-world-championships
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 17:47
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Who decides that? The competitor or the competition? If a trans or female competitor decides they wish to try their hand, why are we to stop them? You openly compete in a sport where bodily harm is possible, pretending that were trying to prevent such by placing artificial barriers isn't helpful. I can't believe we're having this debate seeing as there is a matter of people's safety involved for one but sure yes the completion decides it, years of you know, having fighters pitted against each other for centurys and probably discovering that it's really not a match if you pit a 5'6 guy against a 6'5 guy and more than likely the 6'5 guy doesn't want to face an opponent he not only can likely beat with one hand behind his back, but also will very likely cause long term serious harm if he went full out which is the whole point of competition,you go your hardest to win. Or would you advocate that it's fair that a person with dwarfism should if they want be allowed to fight in a heavyweight ufc fight against someone who's 6ft 5 and 115kg if they like even if there's a high chance that if this ufc fighter doesn't hold back they'd probably be killed? Does the crowd want to see someone get brain damage? Does the fighter want to give that to them? No. So these rules exist for a good reason. And yes they compete in a sport where bodily harm is possible. But the rules with gender, and body weight divisions are put in place to protect those in the ring as much as possible. This doesn't always work but on the whole it's very successful on stopping people getting life long injuries or dying. Just Chamber fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Apr 10, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 17:51
|
|
|
Just Chamber posted:I can't believe we're having this debate seeing as there is a matter of people's safety involved for one but sure yes the completion decides it, years of you know, having fighters pitted against each other for century's and probably discovering that it's really not a match if you pit a 5'6 guy against a 6'5 guy and more than likely the 6'5 guy doesn't want to face an opponent he not only can likely beat with one hand behind his back, but also will very likely caused long term serious harm if he went full out which is the whole point of competition,you go your hardest to win. Body weight? Sure, that makes some sense. Gender? Bullshit. And again, I don't think highly of UFC / Combat sports anyways, but the idea that two equally bodyweighted different gendered fighters need to be protected from one another I can absolutely guarantee is founded in misogyny and optics rather than any sort of scientific method to 'protect' them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 17:53
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Body weight? Sure, that makes some sense. I don't care what you think highly of. Especially with your opinions of this so far. And jesus christ. Men on average have 40-50% stronger upper body strength than women. A 6ft 7 Tyson Fury vs a 6ft7 woman of equal weight, will have so much more strength it will be just completely one sided and actually dangerous to have them fight. Plus this doesn't account for the fact that a 117kg woman will have that weight distubuted differently, muscles, fat, the weight of their skeleton even, you cant just match the weight and call that fair. Men and women are just built differently and these gender divisions can't just say oh you're 75kg and you're 75kg? Have at it this will be safe.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 18:00
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Body weight? Sure, that makes some sense. I can assure you that it has nothing to do with misogyny, especially the higher you go in weight. The ability to build muscle density is directly tied to hormones, which is why trans athletes should compete with the correct gender in the first place. A transwoman should not be fighting CIS men in the same weight class.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 18:00
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Body weight? Sure, that makes some sense. Do you have actual science to back up the arguments you're making about sports you've admitted you don't understand and don't think highly of? Like, some of it is misogyny but I also don't know any women in combat sports who have really been asking to fight with men. No one really has a problem with the gender divisions, just that people can actually fight in the divisions that are appropriate for them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 18:01
|
|
|
Gonna disagree with both of you, that's straight up  . If we're going to say "Well in this case biotruths are okay" then why is it unacceptable to be used as an attack against trans people? Why do we draw the line at saying biotruths are okay in sports? I think its unacceptable everywhere, but I'll drop it for now.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 18:01
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Gonna disagree with both of you, that's straight up It isn't at all. Your line of thinking is what leads to transphobia in athletics in the first place. Transitioning is a complete change in body chemistry and physiologically speaking a transwoman is a woman and has the hormone change to prove it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 18:05
|
|
|
The pituitary gland and hormones do exist and are not biotruths. Part of transitioning is changing those hormones in your body and we're talking one of the situations where it will actually matter and those sports are figuring out ways to figure out those divisions. Proposing ideas where punching power or other factors were measured and used to build divisions would be interesting and actual solutions to what you want but you're just showing that you're ignorant of the sport.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 18:08
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Gonna disagree with both of you, that's straight up One example of hundreds: The men's world record for deadlift is 1,104-pounds, the women's is 636-pound, what does that tell you? I mean if you want to ignore the fact that men and women's bodies are built differently, something that no scientist, doctor etc in the world would disagree with, you do you and enjoy those blinders you're wearing. Keep shouting misogyny or biotruths, whatever helps you deal with losing the argument.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 18:16
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:The pituitary gland and hormones do exist and are not biotruths. Part of transitioning is changing those hormones in your body and we're talking one of the situations where it will actually matter and those sports are figuring out ways to figure out those divisions. Punching power seems as though it would be impossible to measure, since it would be up to the athletes to demonstrate it and they would of course pull their punches to qualify for a lower class.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 18:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 16:55 |
|
|
Koos Group posted:Punching power seems as though it would be impossible to measure, since it would be up to the athletes to demonstrate it and they would of course pull their punches to qualify for a lower class. Weight limits divided by gender is basically the best we can do but even weight is manipulated heavily by fighters.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 18:19
|
|