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Mr. Crow posted:Many of the most celebrated RPGs of all time require you to go out of your way and grind for hours to progress because of literal mechanical road blocks, and your arguing these games are better because sometimes (never) you might have to spend 10 minutes grinding to recover lost souls??? but also I cannot think of a well regarded game that requires grinding anyways, unless you use an excessively broad definition of "grinding"
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Apr 10, 2022 21:33
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How do people ever lose the souls you get from bosses? You can put them into levels immediately after you fight them. What else do you need 450,000 for?
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Apr 10, 2022 21:34
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Wellwinds posted:I think it's more along the lines of some kind of tension is necessary just because completely pure mechanical practice can get boring Nah, the tension is if you learn the thing for me, and that involves mechanical practice. It’s how I beat Orphan of Kos. It’s why I think Sekiro is the best game they’ve made. Sekiro is all mechanical competency and knowledge of the game and systems. There is nothing in that game to obfuscate or modify that it is a game solely about learning and mastering it, and an didn’t. I have not yet done the boss rushes, and that’s okay. Sekiro is an amazing and perfect experience, and I did not complete parts of it and that’s okay. Elden Ring is very different from Sekiro, it’s so much wider in possibilities, but I have the exact same feeling from it as I did for Sekiro and Bloodborne. A game that wanted to be learned, to be mastered, to be conquered.
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Apr 10, 2022 21:35
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You guys are right that Souls are not an important part of the "punishment for failure". The thing that sets you back in souls games is either having to defeat gauntlets of enemies again to reach a physical point in the game (which becomes obsolete once you decide to run past most things), or having to start a boss fight over cause you died.
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Apr 10, 2022 21:35
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stev posted:How do people ever lose the souls you get from bosses? You can put them into levels immediately after you fight them. What else do you need 450,000 for? I'm just the worst when it comes to spending souls, I get obsessed with seeing numbers go up so I tend to wander around after multiple bosses holding off on using the resources until it reaches the next nice round number.
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Apr 10, 2022 21:36
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khwarezm posted:I'm just the worst when it comes to spending souls, I get obsessed with seeing numbers go up so I tend to wander around with after multiple bosses holding off on using the resources until it reaches the next nice round number. 
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Apr 10, 2022 21:37
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dropping souls is not actually an important part of the punishment for dying, but for many players it feels like it is. player psych is usually not going to be very rational so stuff like this can still be effective emotionally
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Apr 10, 2022 21:37
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SHISHKABOB posted:You guys are right that Souls are not an important part of the "punishment for failure". The thing that sets you back in souls games is either having to defeat gauntlets of enemies again to reach a physical point in the game (which becomes obsolete once you decide to run past most things), or having to start a boss fight over cause you died. Those give me time to think and practice and consider what I did wrong, they are not punishments either. Nothing in these games is painful or punishing for me, and I would not play a game I found painful. Challenge does not require pain, it requires enjoyable difficulty.
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Apr 10, 2022 21:37
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Vermain posted:the bloodstain mechanic is a really clever bit of psychological design because it makes you think you've lost an enormous amount of progress when, in reality, the lion's share of your soul gains are going to be from boss kills and consumables, both of which you're going to be spending immediately while right next to a bonfire There was something to this in Mohg's Palace, where I started from the Palace Approach and murdered my way through the Lake of Blood and I was carrying over 100k souls when I ran into the devil birds. Even though I literally respawned in a location where I could farm 100k souls in five minutes, I was stressed out thinking about "losing" that many souls. (Part of it, too, is that those souls feel "earned" and usable for level-ups, whereas I try to only use soul-farming tricks when I need cash for weapon upgrades or buying items.)
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Apr 10, 2022 21:37
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khwarezm posted:I'm just the worst when it comes to spending souls, I get obsessed with seeing numbers go up so I tend to wander around after multiple bosses holding off on using the resources until it reaches the next nice round number. This stresses me out.
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Apr 10, 2022 21:44
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Hey did you know Giant Rat ashes cost nothing to upgrade, and they increase in number as you upgrade them to a total of five at +10? And they are free to cast!
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Apr 10, 2022 21:49
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Yorkshire Pudding posted:This stresses me out. Imagine how I feel! On a related note, the Twiggy Cracked Tear physick is incredibly useful for somebody like me, its like an endlessly reusable sacrificial twig.
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Apr 10, 2022 21:49
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IronicDongz posted:if a game literally required you to grind to progress then the solution is making it so there's not a mechanical roadblock that requires grinding, but instead just playing the game normally getting you enough xp/gold/whatever Basically every JRPG? Also I can't imagine beating e.g. Pillars of Eternity without doing hours of the side quests. I'm not arguing that its indicative of a bad game either, I'm arguing that losing half a level or a couple levels of runes is meaningful or truly different or "more punishing" than any other RPG. I guess if your that one insane guy just hoarding runes across multiple bosses then sure but ugh Mr. Crow fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Apr 10, 2022 |
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Apr 10, 2022 21:50
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Mr. Crow posted:Basically every JRPG? in particular many many playthroughs of ffv, and have never done grinding in that game Mr. Crow posted:Also I can't imagine beating e.g. Pillars of Eternity without doing hours of the side quests. Grinding is you sit yourself down in one location and just repeatedly murder the same enemies for xp/gold/drops, without doing any actual 'content' so to speak. Just repeating random encounters or fights that you've already done many times over.
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Apr 10, 2022 21:54
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IronicDongz posted:Doing sidequests isn't grinding. Tell that to FF7 Remake
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Apr 10, 2022 21:55
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Like grinding is established enough in the Souls games that we already have memes about that crow in Mohgwyn Palace.
khwarezm fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Apr 10, 2022 |
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Apr 10, 2022 21:55
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Mr. Crow posted:Basically every JRPG? Also I can't imagine beating e.g. Pillars of Eternity without doing hours of the side quests. you can definitely beat PoE1 and 2 through the MSQ alone, but that's admittedly dependent on having a good amount of game knowledge and building your party appropriately PoE2 especially has, like, one truly required fight (the rival faction fight in ukaizo), with the rest of them being able to be evaded through good uses of stealth and items
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Apr 10, 2022 21:55
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Imagine a playthrough of a version of Souls in which you don’t drop bloodstains when you die, your souls are just gone forever. Now, imagine a Souls playthrough in which the player never dies once. These two playthroughs… would earn the exact same amount of souls! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=If3SXJeZzMQ
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Apr 10, 2022 22:02
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khwarezm posted:Like grinding is established enough in the Souls games that we already have memes about that crow in Mohgwyn Palace. also see: the people falling for those "BUY 1 MILLION RUNES CHEAP" scams
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Apr 10, 2022 22:02
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I understand a lot of the game is kinda optional, I got two big runes, one from Godrick and the other from the moon wizard lady, Ramona or whatever, and got the two talisman halves to get to Namco Bandai plateau. I did so and the maiden girl is all like hey I'm saying vague things that imply you're about to reach the endgame. Am I about to reach the endgame? I haven't fought the horse guy, the foreskin duo, the naked poison lady, the creepy marionette guy, met the blue witch and many many things I've read about in this thread
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Apr 10, 2022 22:16
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:PvP Stuff I think that, going forward, they should probably just make the PvP an opt-in thing entirely with some neat rewards tucked behind it if you're willing to deal with it to tempt people into it. Also, y'know, balance it better than the mess that Elden Ring turned out to be. They really need to get things sorted out in regards to splitting out PvE and PvP behavior of stuff so they can tweak PvP damage, etc. without it suddenly affecting it's PvE performance.
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Apr 10, 2022 22:18
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Calaveron posted:I understand a lot of the game is kinda optional, I got two big runes, one from Godrick and the other from the moon wizard lady, Ramona or whatever, and got the two talisman halves to get to Namco Bandai plateau. I did so and the maiden girl is all like hey I'm saying vague things that imply you're about to reach the endgame. Am I about to reach the endgame? I haven't fought the horse guy, the foreskin duo, the naked poison lady, the creepy marionette guy, met the blue witch and many many things I've read about in this thread You're about a third of the way through. Maybe close to half.
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Apr 10, 2022 22:19
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As someone who hates PvP in general, Elden Ring has been an awful co-op experience with my new-to-the-genre girlfriend. Us getting invaded is essentially “okay if I can 1v1 him we’ll keep going, if not I’ll put my sign down next to the Grace point we started at 30 seconds ago”
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Apr 10, 2022 22:24
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Calaveron posted:I understand a lot of the game is kinda optional, I got two big runes, one from Godrick and the other from the moon wizard lady, Ramona or whatever, and got the two talisman halves to get to Namco Bandai plateau. I did so and the maiden girl is all like hey I'm saying vague things that imply you're about to reach the endgame. Am I about to reach the endgame? I haven't fought the horse guy, the foreskin duo, the naked poison lady, the creepy marionette guy, met the blue witch and many many things I've read about in this thread Foreskin duo is pretty late game and not optional so don’t worry. I can’t actually tell who the other bosses are or where you are in the game lol.
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Apr 10, 2022 22:25
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Yorkshire Pudding posted:As someone who hates PvP in general, Elden Ring has been an awful co-op experience with my new-to-the-genre girlfriend. Us getting invaded is essentially “okay if I can 1v1 him we’ll keep going, if not I’ll put my sign down next to the Grace point we started at 30 seconds ago” I will say it's especially frustrating for low level players. I've tried to coop a little with a friend in the same boat, it's their first Souls game, but low level starting stuff is always catnip for shitlords that get their kicks by twinking themselves out and stomping new players. I think she actually got better help from me watching her stream and giving helpful advice.
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Apr 10, 2022 22:40
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Beat the game last night. Cheesed Melania with bloodhound step and tiche, idgaf. I want dlc to chloroform Hewg and get him and Roderika out of the Roundtable before it burns up. Now to uninstall and never touch again because I forgot how depressing the settings of the Souls games are. Only one that gets a fairly happy ending is Nephali Loux. Ah well I'll get burned on the next one too.
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Apr 10, 2022 22:51
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fromsoft's continuing inability to come up with a solution to low level twinking invasions is probably the greatest failure of their multiplayer design, honestly like, my absolute very first experience with invasions was playing dark souls: prepare to die edition in undead burg and being invaded by someone with full havel's who took 12 damage from my swings and then effortlessly cut me down in like two hits after letting me plink on him a while and it made me shut off the multiplayer completely until dark souls 2 came around. that kind of first impression completely soured me on it, and i doubt i'm alone in this
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Apr 10, 2022 22:52
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Does anyone else chuckle when Shabriri says his own name? I don't know what's up with the direction, but the voice actor almost sounds like he's saying "Shabwiwi" and I get massive UwU vibes off his reading.  Finishing up my second playthrough, and respec'd to Fth/Arc from pure Arc, and went with dual Peelers, blood infused. The blender is loving real with those things.  I like them better than Eleonora's pole blade, but I'll still switch to her if I need to fire-stagger something.
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Apr 10, 2022 22:53
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Vermain posted:fromsoft's continuing inability to come up with a solution to low level twinking invasions is probably the greatest failure of their multiplayer design, honestly I'm not quite sure how you would solve twinking stuff tbh. There's plenty of stuff you can just run and grab at low level even without trading/dupes, especially in Elden Ring with its open world and very few things being progress gated. Maybe some kind of weapon "tiers" beyond upgrades but it seems like it'd be a nightmare to implement something like that. I'd be curious to see how folks in here would "solve" this particular problem because I really can't think of anything satisfactory. e: It kinda feels like Soul Memory in DS2 was some sort of attempt at balancing multiplayer stuff but that was a pretty bad system and clearly FROM thought so too since it doesn't exist in SotFS (is it still in vanilla DS2 or did it get patched out)? Professor Beetus fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Apr 10, 2022 |
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Apr 10, 2022 22:56
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Professor Beetus posted:I'm not quite sure how you would solve twinking stuff tbh. better balance, doing away with as many of the RPG stats as possible, and front-loading alternate weapons can't have twinking if you don't have pointless vertical scaling in the first place
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Apr 10, 2022 22:58
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Professor Beetus posted:I'm not quite sure how you would solve twinking stuff tbh. There's plenty of stuff you can just run and grab at low level even without trading/dupes, especially in Elden Ring with its open world and very few things being progress gated. Maybe some kind of weapon "tiers" beyond upgrades but it seems like it'd be a nightmare to implement something like that. I'd be curious to see how folks in here would "solve" this particular problem because I really can't think of anything satisfactory. aside from actually balancing everything out, my personal solution would be to give items and spells an "invasion ilvl" that would dynamically modify the level and weapon brackets you can invade depending on what you've got equipped, so having something like rivers of blood equipped would shift your valid invasion brackets up by +20 effective levels or whatever. this would make it easier to patch out specific problem items from low level invasions without directly nerfing them this would require a level of transparency in from's design that they've never been willing to do, however, so i doubt we'll ever see it or anything close to it
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Apr 10, 2022 23:01
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Professor Beetus posted:I'm not quite sure how you would solve twinking stuff tbh. There's plenty of stuff you can just run and grab at low level even without trading/dupes, especially in Elden Ring with its open world and very few things being progress gated. Maybe some kind of weapon "tiers" beyond upgrades but it seems like it'd be a nightmare to implement something like that. I'd be curious to see how folks in here would "solve" this particular problem because I really can't think of anything satisfactory. Soul memory wasn’t removed or patched out of any version of DS2. They just added (in SOTFS) a ring that blocks all soul gain, letting you get around it to some extent.
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Apr 10, 2022 23:02
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While I guess it would need some level of actual anticheat to go with it, just making it so you can't drop weapons for people would be nice. Make invaders actually earn those RL 20 Limgrave Rivers of Blood.
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Apr 10, 2022 23:04
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skasion posted:Soul memory wasn’t removed or patched out of any version of DS2. They just added (in SOTFS) a ring that blocks all soul gain, letting you get around it to some extent. Oh what lol? I had no idea. I guess it wasn't as bad as I thought!
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Apr 10, 2022 23:05
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Snake Maze posted:While I guess it would need some level of actual anticheat to go with it, just making it so you can't drop weapons for people would be nice. Make invaders actually earn those RL 20 Limgrave Rivers of Blood. here's the secret: anything that makes it harder to find a match is a bad solution regardless of whether it's technically feasible or not you want more eligible targets, not fewer. literally nothing kills multiplayer faster than long queues and once it starts it's a vicious cycle
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Apr 10, 2022 23:05
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In retrospect the whole game should have been Limgrave. Limgrave north would have snow. Best zone by a mile.
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Apr 10, 2022 23:07
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so malenia has had two prior bloomings to the game, are they marked with red flowers like her last blooming is?. there is a red flower near her boss room so it makes me wonder if she first bloomed in the haligtree or something
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Apr 10, 2022 23:17
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juggalo baby coffin posted:so malenia has had two prior bloomings to the game, are they marked with red flowers like her last blooming is?. there is a red flower near her boss room so it makes me wonder if she first bloomed in the haligtree or something i think the one we see is the second one. the item that describes it can't exist until after the fact, after all the first one is in the opening cinematic and is, well, Caelid e: also there isn't a flower in Caelid because she's still in the flower under the Haligtree, it's basically her body. that's why you can stick the golden needle into it as one of the potential ends of that questline Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Apr 10, 2022 |
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Apr 10, 2022 23:19
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There's one of those sword graveyards with the inscriptions that I literally just ran into while traveling to get the Meteorite staff that reads "The Battle of Aeonia Radahn and Malenia locked in stalemate Then, the scarlet rot blooms" which sort of implies that her first blooming was in the swamp of Aeonia.
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Apr 10, 2022 23:24
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:i think the one we see is the second one. the item that describes it can't exist until after the fact, after all There's one in a side room outside her boss arena, and one inside her boss arena after the fight. If we assume the bloom in Caelid from the trailer is canon, that's 3 blooms.
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Apr 10, 2022 23:25
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