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https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1515008951494094851?s=20&t=HwyAjV7ADNrU1E9-HM_-Ig The Pentagon has confirmed the Ukrainian story about the Moskva's sinking. The story, as best anyone can tell from what the Pentagon has confirmed, is that a drone distracted the Moskva's air search radar (or more likely, its operators) and two shore-launched Neptunes then hit the ship while its only radar was tracking the drone instead of the incoming missiles. The ship and its ammunition caught fire, prompting the surviving crew to abandon ship. The Russians then took the burning but still afloat ship under tow until a secondary explosion (or several) put holes below the waterline and sank the ship.
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Apr 15, 2022 18:29
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Is it worth giving any credence to the idea that maintaining NATO is an absurd provocation along the same lines as the US allowing Cuba to stage Soviet missiles? I’m having a hard time seeing Finland joining NATO as analogous (for instance, NATO operates as a defense pact and not directly as a means to assert dominance over an area) but it’s what the internet left seems to be settling on.
Tiny Timbs fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Apr 15, 2022 |
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Apr 15, 2022 18:31
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Tiny Timbs posted:Is it worth giving any credence to the idea that maintaining NATO is an absurd provocation along the same lines as the US allowing Cuba to stage Soviet missiles? I’m having a hard time seeing Finland joining NATO as analogous but it’s what the internet left seems to be settling on. No.
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Apr 15, 2022 18:31
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bulletsponge13 posted:Also, not so good at English. Or radios. No radio-more room for boom. If we need to get in touch with each other, just blow something up.
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Apr 15, 2022 18:34
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Tiny Timbs posted:Is it worth giving any credence to the idea that maintaining NATO is an absurd provocation along the same lines as the US allowing Cuba to stage Soviet missiles? I’m having a hard time seeing Finland joining NATO as analogous (for instance, NATO operates as a defense pact and not directly as a means to assert dominance over an area) but it’s what the internet left seems to be settling on. If you want to post in CSPAM, just go post there.
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Apr 15, 2022 18:34
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Tiny Timbs posted:Is it worth giving any credence to the idea that maintaining NATO is an absurd provocation along the same lines as the US allowing Cuba to stage Soviet missiles? I’m having a hard time seeing Finland joining NATO as analogous but it’s what the internet left seems to be settling on. If China attacked Russia we could always admit them and come to their aid. Seriously though, only if you believe defense treaties to be a provocation anywhere which would seem silly. Being provoked by a defense treaty....
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Apr 15, 2022 18:35
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Tiny Timbs posted:Is it worth giving any credence to the idea that maintaining NATO is an absurd provocation along the same lines as the US allowing Cuba to stage Soviet missiles? I’m having a hard time seeing Finland joining NATO as analogous (for instance, NATO operates as a defense pact and not directly as a means to assert dominance over an area) but it’s what the internet left seems to be settling on. For that argument to work, it would have to be Ukraine invading Russia. If anything, what is happening in Ukraine right now is a NATO recruitment drive, proving what NATO is capable of.
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Apr 15, 2022 18:35
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Tiny Timbs posted:Is it worth giving any credence to the idea that maintaining NATO is an absurd provocation along the same lines as the US allowing Cuba to stage Soviet missiles? I’m having a hard time seeing Finland joining NATO as analogous but it’s what the internet left seems to be settling on. No, because Poland (along with Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania) is part of NATO and while the Russians aren't happy about it, they've learned to deal with it. Finland is a *little* different because that's a whole lotta border territory Russia needs to keep a closer eye on, and Sweden has their panties in a bunch because Sweden's Navy does have the ability to interdict their access into and out of the Baltic Sea, which...they've always had the ability to do even without being NATO members, especially since Russia has a history of loving around with Sweden's territorial waters. Their "threat" to host nuclear weapons in Kaliningrad is empty as well because...they're already doing that. The moral? Don't listen to tankies. EDIT: Forgot Romania and Slovakia. BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Apr 15, 2022 |
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Apr 15, 2022 18:36
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Tiny Timbs posted:Is it worth giving any credence to the idea that maintaining NATO is an absurd provocation along the same lines as the US allowing Cuba to stage Soviet missiles? I’m having a hard time seeing Finland joining NATO as analogous (for instance, NATO operates as a defense pact and not directly as a means to assert dominance over an area) but it’s what the internet left seems to be settling on. Only if you see denying Russia the ability to arbitrarily invade people is unduly provocative to Russia. Russia has demonstrated repeatedly that if they view your territory and population as something they desire they will take it regardless of provocation or appeasement attempts. Let's not forget that Russia had previously signed treaties guaranteeing Ukrainian sovereignty so it's not like anything other than pure force is a deterrent.
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Apr 15, 2022 18:37
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CainFortea posted:If you want to post in CSPAM, just go post there. Why would I want their take? That’s one place I’ve been seeing the argument and anyone querying it just gets a gish gallop of grayzone-style nonsense. Murgos posted:Only if you see denying Russia the ability to arbitrarily invade people is unduly provocative to Russia. Yeah I think it’s interesting (and a tell for the real motivation of the argument) that Ukraine is the focus of an anti-NATO argument despite being a country that has repeatedly been told their admission to NATO was not feasible specifically because of ongoing Russian meddling. Tiny Timbs fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Apr 15, 2022 |
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Apr 15, 2022 18:37
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Tiny Timbs posted:…what the internet left seems to be settling on. *mechanic voice* yup there’s your problem. A well meaning friend falls into that echo chamber sometimes and so I hear about why it’s been decided all white people need to leave Seattle, except himself as you see… (he’s gotten better since marrying a sensible person and no longer having unlimited free time)
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Apr 15, 2022 18:38
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Tiny Timbs posted:Is it worth giving any credence to the idea that maintaining NATO is an absurd provocation along the same lines as the US allowing Cuba to stage Soviet missiles? I’m having a hard time seeing Finland joining NATO as analogous (for instance, NATO operates as a defense pact and not directly as a means to assert dominance over an area) but it’s what the internet left seems to be settling on. It is a provocation only if you believe that Russia has a moral right to invade and forcibly annex countries around it whenever it wants to, just because it's a big power and that's what big powers do. NATO is intended to stop that sort of behavior. It wouldn't exist if the countries surrounded by Russia didn't fear for their safety from it.
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Apr 15, 2022 18:39
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Tiny Timbs posted:Is it worth giving any credence to the idea that maintaining NATO is an absurd provocation along the same lines as the US allowing Cuba to stage Soviet missiles? I’m having a hard time seeing Finland joining NATO as analogous (for instance, NATO operates as a defense pact and not directly as a means to assert dominance over an area) but it’s what the internet left seems to be settling on. No. Russia is "antagonized" by an organization specifically for countering their war criming rape and murder sprees because it stops them from war criming rape and murder sprees. If they weren't war criming their way through other countries, those countries would not be banding together for mutual defense against them. gently caress anyone making this argument. It's disingenuous "stop hitting yourself" playground bully bullshit. The aggressor doesn't get to complain about their victims defending themselves.
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Apr 15, 2022 18:39
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The key point is that whenever NATO says to Russia 'okay if you have concerns about forces in Eastern Europe then lets talk about reciprocal restrictions on deployments of land-based missile forces and conduct of snap exercises' then Russia suddenly goes very quiet.
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Apr 15, 2022 18:40
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Alchenar posted:The key point is that whenever NATO says to Russia 'okay if you have concerns about forces in Eastern Europe then lets talk about reciprocal restrictions on deployments of land-based missile forces and conduct of snap exercises' then Russia suddenly goes very quiet. "Oh right, we forgot we're not China. Our mistake!"
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Apr 15, 2022 18:42
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bulletsponge13 posted:Oh poo poo. I mean I'm a mental health professional and not an explosives kind of person but it seems to me that for all of the things it is important for EOD to be good at, "using lots of explosives" would be at or near the top of the list.
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Apr 15, 2022 18:45
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BIG HEADLINE posted:"Oh right, we forgot we're not China. Our mistake!" The tankie argument gets most obviously flawed when they were flipping effortlessly at the start of the year from 'NATO enlargement is provocative to Russia' to 'Russia moving troops within its own borders is perfectly normal and anyone in the West expressing concern that they're obviously deploying for an offensive war is cynically beating war drums'.
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Apr 15, 2022 18:47
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Hyrax Attack! posted:*mechanic voice* yup there’s your problem. A well meaning friend falls into that echo chamber sometimes and so I hear about why it’s been decided all white people need to leave Seattle, except himself as you see… (he’s gotten better since marrying a sensible person and no longer having unlimited free time) LMAO I live in Seattle and haven't met anyone like that yet. I only ever see the tankie stuff on the internet.
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Apr 15, 2022 18:50
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Cythereal posted:https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1515008951494094851?s=20&t=HwyAjV7ADNrU1E9-HM_-Ig So basically they pointed at a cloud and said "look at that!" Nice job to the team that designed and built the Neptunes, though. That's got to be a real feather in their cap.
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Apr 15, 2022 18:54
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Alchenar posted:The key point is that whenever NATO says to Russia 'okay if you have concerns about forces in Eastern Europe then lets talk about reciprocal restrictions on deployments of land-based missile forces and conduct of snap exercises' then Russia suddenly goes very quiet. This is a key point. Whenever someone starts going down the line of Russia needs something, whatever that is, realize that the conversation has moved to things of value and it can be easily countered by asking "What is Russia offering in exchange for this thing that's valuable to it?" To which the answer is nothing, because the proposition is 'give it freely or we take it by force'. For example Russia doesn't want Ukraine to ever be able to join NATO. Ukraine being in NATO is a thing valuable to Ukraine, arguably, Ukraine being in NATO has some value to NATO and obviously Ukraine not being in NATO is extremely valuable to Russia. So, what did they offer as compensation for the loss of value to Ukraine and NATO?
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Apr 15, 2022 18:57
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Mustang posted:LMAO I live in Seattle and haven't met anyone like that yet. I only ever see the tankie stuff on the internet. Yeah it’s an interesting mix of folks who spend too much time online and start thinking certain non-mainstream political views outweigh reality, then run into trouble trying to put them into action. Like the same guy acting on something Chapo said so he would no longer aim to have his small business make profit beyond the bare minimum so he could work like 20 hours a week. That lasted maybe a day until his wife yelled at him for forgetting they had a baby on the way and she was working far more in a high stress job that was the reason they have health insurance. Different from another friend who thought his progressive views meant he should move to a not great part of Seattle and he was burglarized in less than a week.
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Apr 15, 2022 19:02
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cruft posted:So basically they pointed at a cloud and said "look at that!" Lol, years ago when I was in charge of writing tactical simulations for our CIC, I would always do that kind of poo poo. Drone, helicopter, small boat, then send some ASCMs from another axis.
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Apr 15, 2022 19:07
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Fearless posted:I mean I'm a mental health professional and not an explosives kind of person but it seems to me that for all of the things it is important for EOD to be good at, "using lots of explosives" would be at or near the top of the list. Some people might prefer that EOD be good at 'using the exact correct amount of explosives'
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Apr 15, 2022 19:19
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Hekk posted:Australian Army was pretty effective too. They struggle to break down into small units like we do though. Their platoon and squad structure didn’t support breaking down to the fireteam level which led to some differences in how we conducted training. This is intersting. Can you elaborate? Our Finnish infantry standard (conscript) smallest combat 'unit' is fighting pair, meaning that two soldiers cooperate and watch for eachother, coordinating reloads in combat situations etc. Then in the infantry recon / guerilla (my training) the basic smallest structure is a 3 person patrol. Basically a leader, a radio guy and one extra, often tasked with orienteering and/or carrying special gear like sniper rifles or anti-armour gear.
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Apr 15, 2022 19:59
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Murgos posted:arguably, Ukraine being in NATO has some value to NATO and obviously Ukraine not being in NATO is extremely valuable to Russia. I think Ukraine at this point has shown themselves to be a formidable addition to a potential military alliance. Along those lines, I expect their arms exports to be highly sought when this is done. If I was a smaller country wanting to deter a neighbor I'd be very willing to consider Stugna-P's and Neptunes. Way cheaper than NATO weapons, but very effective and long-ranged. Heck, are there many incidents of ASM's actually sinking a proper ship? Neptune is instantly one of the more blooded ASM's in the world. It certainly took out the biggest ship ever missile'd.
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Apr 15, 2022 20:13
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bad_fmr posted:This is intersting. Can you elaborate? It's been a few years but as I remember it an Australian Army platoon has (3) eight man maneuver sections and a twelve man support section. Their maneuver sections don't break down smaller than 8 men. Compared to a USMC platoon which has (3) thirteen man squads that can break down into (3) four man fire teams. Most of the training USMC infantry units do start at the fire team level and work their way up. Because the USMC used 4 person fire teams but our squads were 13 (three fire teams plus the squad leader), the Australian maneuver unit was smaller than our squads but bigger than our fire teams and we had to adjust our training to accommodate the differences in our structure.
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Apr 15, 2022 20:19
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Uncle Enzo posted:It certainly took out the biggest ship ever missile'd. When everything is "BREAKING NEWS" it's hard to not get caught up in the minutia, but then you have a moment and realize that a theoretical global power just had a fleet flagship sunk like it's WWII.
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Apr 15, 2022 20:19
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Deteriorata posted:It is a provocation only if you believe that Russia has a moral right to invade and forcibly annex countries around it whenever it wants to, just because it's a big power and that's what big powers do. I don't understand how NATO is any more or less a provacative force than the CSTO? Do people not know that Russia itself has a bunch of defensive alliances with former USSR states?
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Apr 15, 2022 20:20
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Defenestrategy posted:I don't understand how NATO is any more or less a provacative force than the CSTO? Do people not know that Russia itself has a bunch of defensive alliances with former USSR states? It’s not really an alliance when you’re not allowed to leave without getting invaded.
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Apr 15, 2022 20:21
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Anyone got a good writeup on the Moskva being tricked by a drone? CNN and WaPo just have brief statements from the Pentagon saying they confirmed Ukraine's version of the events. BTW Russia is saying that the crew of the Moskva was deposited back in Sevastopol. They did not comment on how many nor their present state of aliveness. psydude fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Apr 15, 2022 |
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Apr 15, 2022 20:23
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A.o.D. posted:Some people might prefer that EOD be good at 'using the exact correct amount of explosives' Yes, but aren't explosives used to blow up things and so therefore "lots" is always the correct amount?
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Apr 15, 2022 20:26
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Constituent atoms count right?
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Apr 15, 2022 20:27
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stealie72 posted:Every few days something like this comes up to remind us all just how massively Russia hosed up. Oh yeah for sure for a nation with barely any navy against an ostensible superpower built to fight the US/Royal/French/maybe also Japanese navies all at once it’s absurd.
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Apr 15, 2022 20:28
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stealie72 posted:Every few days something like this comes up to remind us all just how massively Russia hosed up. its almost like warfare is completely different when your adversary can match or exceed you on a technical level and is also backed by the entire western world
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Apr 15, 2022 20:29
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Fearless posted:Yes, but aren't explosives used to blow up things and so therefore "lots" is always the correct amount? Back when I was in mining, the mill people would often get annoyed at the blasters for making the muck too small. Then the week after the muck would be too big, it was a fun argument.
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Apr 15, 2022 20:30
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psydude posted:Anyone got a good writeup on the Moskva being tricked by a drone? CNN and WaPo just have brief statements from the Pentagon saying they confirmed Ukraine's version of the events. There aren't any hard details from an objective, non-Ukrainian non-Russian source as of yet. What is known is this: The Moskva was in the middle of an intense storm in the Black Sea, and the Ukrainians were using a drone in the area. The Ukrainians claim it was a deliberate attempt to distract the Moskva's air search radar, but there's also a real chance they were using the drone to get a fix on the Moskva's location. When the Ukrainians launched two Neptunes, the Moskva's air defense systems - which should be capable of shooting down inbound ASMs like that - failed to hit either missile. The Ukrainians are claiming that the Moskva's air search and defense systems were distracted by the drone. There's been anecdotal accounts that the Moskva may not have been fully crewed, and the personnel on board were not properly trained in operating the ship's radar and air defense systems. Other accounts claim that the ship's radar was malfunctioning due to poor maintenance, and perhaps not even installed correctly, and that the ship wasn't tracking inbound contacts properly. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Apr 15, 2022 |
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Apr 15, 2022 20:31
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https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1514941186397683715
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Apr 15, 2022 20:38
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Stultus Maximus posted:Lol, years ago when I was in charge of writing tactical simulations for our CIC, I would always do that kind of poo poo. Drone, helicopter, small boat, then send some ASCMs from another axis. Seems like classic misdirection and distraction. How'd that work out?
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Apr 15, 2022 20:55
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Owns
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Apr 15, 2022 20:59
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FrozenVent posted:Back when I was in mining, the mill people would often get annoyed at the blasters for making the muck too small. I'm in this post and I like it. Complain about my fragmentation will you? It's go time.
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Apr 15, 2022 21:02
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