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woozy pawsies posted:Hmmmm this seems familiar. Let’s whip ourselves into a frenzy and round up a posse. gently caress off with this. Just need a couple IKs
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Apr 16, 2022 16:31
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Asking to define what a women is in a thread about sports which has “men” and “women” divisions is probably a good question to ask. It’s even talked about in the bbm article. It’s colloquial definition and classification is assumed in the studies posted. “Women are women” is a meaningless statement that doesn’t help clear anything up or add to the discussion. But go ahead and assume malice and hate for anyone that could possibly disagree with you on a topic, even if the disagreement is loving semantics.
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Apr 16, 2022 16:35
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woozy pawsies posted:Asking to define what a women is in a thread about sports which has “men” and “women” divisions is probably a good question to ask. It’s even talked about in the bbm article. It’s colloquial definition and classification is assumed in the studies posted. “Women are women” is a meaningless statement that doesn’t help clear anything up or add to the discussion. But go ahead and assume malice and hate for anyone that could possibly disagree with you on a topic, even if the disagreement is loving semantics. Surely this time it's in good faith.
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Apr 16, 2022 16:37
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woozy pawsies posted:Asking to define what a women is in a thread about sports which has “men” and “women” divisions is probably a good question to ask. It’s even talked about in the bbm article. It’s colloquial definition and classification is assumed in the studies posted. “Women are women” is a meaningless statement that doesn’t help clear anything up or add to the discussion. But go ahead and assume malice and hate for anyone that could possibly disagree with you on a topic, even if the disagreement is loving semantics. Cool so are trans women women or not? Or are you gonna tap dance and default to asking "what is a woman?"
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Apr 16, 2022 16:41
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Ash Crimson posted:Cool so are trans women women or not? Or are you gonna tap dance and default to asking "what is a woman?" Trans women are women, they should be allowed in sports, puberty blockers are fine, etc etc. When should they be allowed in sports though? As soon as they come out? Why wait until after HRT?
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Apr 16, 2022 16:44
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because im an idiot who cant keep his mouth shut my positions are that trans people should be treated the same as cis people, anyone should have mostly unfettered access to transitional care regardless of their reasoning for wanting to transition (not to imply that any particular reason would be necessarily invalid) and that my instinctual answer to the thread question at hand is Yes. the line of questioning i went into last night was just to clear things up because in internet trans discourse people like to throw around catchphrases without really thinking critically about what they actually mean which leads to the subject being the most polarized and nuance-resistant topic of discussion in the history of ever. in retrospect it was pretty off topic and i regret getting into it
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Apr 16, 2022 16:45
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woozy pawsies posted:Trans women are women, they should be allowed in sports, puberty blockers are fine, etc etc. When should they be allowed in sports though? As soon as they come out? Why wait until after HRT? Appreciate you answering it. The issue with basing it on hormone levels is that inevitably cis and intersex women will be caught up in the crossfire, but that seems to be the way it's going
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Apr 16, 2022 16:47
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mycophobia posted:because im an idiot who cant keep his mouth shut my positions are that trans people should be treated the same as cis people, anyone should have mostly unfettered access to transitional care regardless of their reasoning for wanting to transition (not to imply that any particular reason would be necessarily invalid) and that my instinctual answer to the thread question at hand is Yes. Fair enough Part of the reason this topic is so heated is that unfortunately it is being used as a wedge issue to harm trans people and cis people's whole reference to trans people in general is so far removed from how trans people view or talk about themselves or their experiences that you're gonna run into them being automatically defensive
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Apr 16, 2022 16:50
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woozy pawsies posted:Asking to define what a women is in a thread about sports which has “men” and “women” divisions is probably a good question to ask. It’s even talked about in the bbm article. It’s colloquial definition and classification is assumed in the studies posted. “Women are women” is a meaningless statement that doesn’t help clear anything up or add to the discussion. But go ahead and assume malice and hate for anyone that could possibly disagree with you on a topic, even if the disagreement is loving semantics. the question has been answered very simply and does not need further discussion. A woman is a person who considers themselves to be a woman. A man is someone who considers themselves to be a man. If you cannot accept those definitions then you should not be discussing this topic with people who do. Not accepting those definitions is the baseline, the core of what it is to be a transphobe. It's not 'assuming malice', it's calling a spade a spade.
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Apr 16, 2022 16:53
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Ash Crimson posted:Appreciate you answering it. There’s absolutely limitations to it and many misconceptions, seemingly so even within the governing bodies of the sports (and especially the general public), but right now, due to the paucity of data and research on trans athletes (because there are so few, especially at the level where it matters), it looks like no one else has come up with a better approach. I side on the side of inclusion while the science and time settle things. While I’m a bit ambivalent, part of me thinking the performance gap between the sexes stems from talent pool/socioeconomic climate, I’m still not fully convinced that on average males do not have some sort of physiological advantage regarding strength.
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Apr 16, 2022 16:59
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woozy pawsies posted:There’s absolutely limitations to it and many misconceptions, seemingly so even within the governing bodies of the sports (and especially the general public), but right now, due to the paucity of data and research on trans athletes (because there are so few, especially at the level where it matters), it looks like no one else has come up with a better approach. I side on the side of inclusion while the science and time settle things. While I’m a bit ambivalent, part of me thinking the performance gap between the sexes stems from talent pool/socioeconomic climate, I’m still not fully convinced that on average males do not have some sort of physiological advantage regarding strength. that's fair enough, trans athletes are a minority of a minority and i also think that socioeconomic climate has a greater impact than other factors
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Apr 16, 2022 17:04
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empty whippet box posted:the question has been answered very simply and does not need further discussion. A woman is a person who considers themselves to be a woman. A man is someone who considers themselves to be a man. If you cannot accept those definitions then you should not be discussing this topic with people who do. Not accepting those definitions is the baseline, the core of what it is to be a transphobe. It's not 'assuming malice', it's calling a spade a spade. I’m being serious here with this line of questioning, I know it’s thrown around by assholes with bad intentions, but I am very curious what you think. I am a man who has enjoyed all the socioeconomic benefits of being perceived as one my whole life, and I have enjoyed (if they exist) the physiological benefits of training as one in powerlifting. If there was a powerlifting competition today that had “men” and “women” divisions, and I started to consider myself a woman today, would it be fair competitors for me to compete in the “women” division?
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Apr 16, 2022 17:05
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If a sport is going to be segregated by performance capacity it should be done purely on that metric. Trying to use an abstract label like gender as an analog is simply a mistake. Anyhow if you're going to focus on ability focus on ability, not as some relative difference in average ability between two arbitrarily defined subgroups.
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Apr 16, 2022 17:07
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woozy pawsies posted:I’m being serious here with this line of questioning, I know it’s thrown around by assholes with bad intentions, but I am very curious what you think. I am a man who has enjoyed all the socioeconomic benefits of being perceived as one my whole life, and I have enjoyed (if they exist) the physiological benefits of training as one in powerlifting. If there was a powerlifting competition today that had “men” and “women” divisions, and I started to consider myself a woman today, would it be fair competitors for me to compete in the “women” division? It's the "today" part that sounds like a bit of a red flag to me, realising you are trans, coming out and transitioning (if you can) is a long process, it's not done on a whim
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Apr 16, 2022 17:11
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woozy pawsies posted:I’m being serious here with this line of questioning, I know it’s thrown around by assholes with bad intentions, but I am very curious what you think. I am a man who has enjoyed all the socioeconomic benefits of being perceived as one my whole life, and I have enjoyed (if they exist) the physiological benefits of training as one in powerlifting. If there was a powerlifting competition today that had “men” and “women” divisions, and I started to consider myself a woman today, would it be fair competitors for me to compete in the “women” division? Questions like these are offensive because they act like this is a reasonable scenario which could potentially happen with a real trans person. It's not. This is the text equivalent of dropping that image from south park that guy did earlier in the thread, and it's equally offensive.
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Apr 16, 2022 17:19
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woozy pawsies posted:I’m being serious here with this line of questioning, I know it’s thrown around by assholes with bad intentions, but I am very curious what you think. I am a man who has enjoyed all the socioeconomic benefits of being perceived as one my whole life, and I have enjoyed (if they exist) the physiological benefits of training as one in powerlifting. If there was a powerlifting competition today that had “men” and “women” divisions, and I started to consider myself a woman today, would it be fair competitors for me to compete in the “women” division? Simply changing your legal gender is a long process and requires a doctor's statement in many, if not all countries.
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Apr 16, 2022 17:22
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Ash Crimson posted:It's the "today" part that sounds like a bit of a red flag to me, realising you are trans, coming out and transitioning (if you can) is a long process, it's not done on a whim Yeah I get that, I was going to put an asterisks there but hypotheticals get dumbed down when you start throwing in way too many qualifiers. Like yeah I’ve seen the arguments (I think by Serrano??) that talk about how the socioeconomic benefits are reduced and the mental stress accumulates even if a person presents and is perceived as male but is a women etc, but I wanted to keep this as simple as possible.
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Apr 16, 2022 17:22
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woozy pawsies posted:I’m being serious here with this line of questioning, I know it’s thrown around by assholes with bad intentions, but I am very curious what you think. I am a man who has enjoyed all the socioeconomic benefits of being perceived as one my whole life, and I have enjoyed (if they exist) the physiological benefits of training as one in powerlifting. If there was a powerlifting competition today that had “men” and “women” divisions, and I started to consider myself a woman today, would it be fair competitors for me to compete in the “women” division? My answer is: Who knows? Because I don’t think we understand enough about the complex mix of biology and social construction to know what would have changed about you in this hypothetical. If this hypothetical is “everything up until now about my biology and internal life is the same but ‘click’ oh I just decide that I’m a woman” that doesn’t really match most experiences I’ve encountered about what it feels like to be in denial about being transgender and kind of reproduces the transphobic fable about why MTF people are trying to compete in women’s divisions “they just want a leg up and they couldn’t cut it as a real man.” If this hypothetical is “I’m me but actually trans and I lived in deep denial about that and my weightlifting career has been profoundly shaped by unacknowledged gender dysphoria that pushed me to reach for a hyper masculine body shape and now I’m confronting decades of denial and my sense of self is crashing down around me but I paid the registration fee so I guess I’ll still compete” then it gets a lot more complicated about what your performance to this point might have been and how you’d handle the competition itself. What I’m trying to gently point out is that these hypotheticals are impossible to litigate because we don’t really understand enough about what it is to be transgender to accurately model in our minds the kind of alternate world that seems like an easy question. Like, no one’s intuitions are tuned for this.
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Apr 16, 2022 17:23
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woozy pawsies posted:I’m being serious here with this line of questioning, I know it’s thrown around by assholes with bad intentions, but I am very curious what you think. I am a man who has enjoyed all the socioeconomic benefits of being perceived as one my whole life, and I have enjoyed (if they exist) the physiological benefits of training as one in powerlifting. If there was a powerlifting competition today that had “men” and “women” divisions, and I started to consider myself a woman today, would it be fair competitors for me to compete in the “women” division? Probably not but that wouldn't happen, hasn't happened, and is a weird hypothetical compared to the real world situation so like, who gives a gently caress? Why do people constantly need to debate stupid insane hypotheticals that don't happen when they have real world events about the real laws people are attempting to pass?
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Apr 16, 2022 17:25
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Gumball Gumption posted:Probably not but that wouldn't happen, hasn't happened, and is a weird hypothetical compared to the real world situation so like, who gives a gently caress? Why do people constantly need to debate stupid insane hypotheticals that don't happen when they have real world events about the real laws people are attempting to pass? The question people are really asking is when they do this is, "but aren't my bigoted attitudes towards these people a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittle justified? hmm? a bit? a wee bit?" and it deserves the same response that we'd give if it was a guy 'just asking questions' about whether a nonwhite person has a soul or something like that.
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Apr 16, 2022 17:28
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woozy pawsies posted:If there was a powerlifting competition today that had “men” and “women” divisions, and I started to consider myself a woman today, would it be fair competitors for me to compete in the “women” division? Yes
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Apr 16, 2022 17:28
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empty whippet box posted:Questions like these are offensive because they act like this is a reasonable scenario which could potentially happen with a real trans person. It's not. This is the text equivalent of dropping that image from south park that guy did earlier in the thread, and it's equally offensive. So part of the reason I asked this is because I used your definition of "A woman is a person who considers themselves to be a woman." by saying " I started to consider myself a woman" and everyone has shown backlash to that. If things were so simple, it would be an easy hypothetical to answer. The other part is this is a similar situation (yes, she dealt with not being out for years and it was much, much, much more complex) that Janae Marie Kroc found herself in https://profilesinpride.com/janae-marie-kroc-on-being-transgender-athlete-in-the-spotlight/ quote:Due to her significant muscle mass and unique situation, she felt it would be unfair to compete as a female, and she didn’t want to make things more difficult for other transgender athletes. She feared that due to her physique and high level of success, she would be used as an argument against trans women competing in the female division. To prevent this, she decided if she does return, it would be in the male category, which fueled false rumors that she was detransitioning.
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Apr 16, 2022 17:30
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woozy pawsies posted:So part of the reason I asked this is because I used your definition of "A woman is a person who considers themselves to be a woman." by saying " I started to consider myself a woman" and everyone has shown backlash to that. If things were so simple, it would be an easy hypothetical to answer. Why don't you just go try it and report back what happens? Then it's not a dumb hypothetical and an actual thing for people to discuss.
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Apr 16, 2022 17:31
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woozy pawsies posted:So part of the reason I asked this is because I used your definition of "A woman is a person who considers themselves to be a woman." by saying " I started to consider myself a woman" and everyone has shown backlash to that. If things were so simple, it would be an easy hypothetical to answer. no it isn't? quote:
This isn't like your scenario of "what if the night before a competition someone decided they're a girl" at all. However the last sentence here talks about her being afraid of people like you, using her story in exactly the way you have here.
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Apr 16, 2022 17:34
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Monglo posted:Yes I'd be 2nd place in the world.
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Apr 16, 2022 17:36
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empty whippet box posted:no it isn't? I think trans people should compete in sports in the division of their choosing. Also keep reading, she competed well after privately coming out.
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Apr 16, 2022 17:42
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woozy pawsies posted:I think trans people should compete in sports in the division of their choosing. Also keep reading, she competed well after privately coming out. okay? congratulations to her. That doesn't change the fact that her story is absolutely nothing like your scenario of "what if someone decided they are a woman the day before competition". It's nothing like it at all. There is no equivalence, absolutely no parallel to be drawn whatsoever and it's not right for you to have said that there was a similarity.
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Apr 16, 2022 17:44
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empty whippet box posted:Questions like these are offensive because they act like this is a reasonable scenario which could potentially happen with a real trans person. It's not. This is the text equivalent of dropping that image from south park that guy did earlier in the thread, and it's equally offensive. bringing that up in a context that isn't specifically a discussion thread called 'should transgender athletes be allowed to compete? (yes)' might be offensive, but in this specific context it's literally the precise subject of the thread and I'd emphasize that woozy has posted from a perspective that is about as far on the permissive end of the question as it is possible to be. Currently the biggest questions from actual sporting organizations in nearly all cases is not 'should trans people be able to compete' but rather, 'how long into the transition process should they be allowed to compete.' I want to emphasize here that this question is one trans athletes themselves are discussing and, in some organizations, are themselves involved in establishing the rules. As an aside, imo let people actually participate/compete at any stage of transitioning with their preferred gender, but follow whatever reasonable rules are agreed upon by given federations or organizations for eligibility for placement or taking records. For youth sports, let trans kids participate in whichever gender they choose. Most significantly there are two wildly different questions here: one is a question about trans kids in amateur sports and the other is a question about serious/professional/elite athletes and how to balance competing interests of inclusion and fairness, insofar as that is even possible in sporting events.
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Apr 16, 2022 17:45
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Woozy isn't a transphobe, they're just doing psudo-intellectual bs about weird hypotheticals because that's how you post in D&D. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 16, 2022 17:47
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Herstory Begins Now posted:bringing that up in a context that isn't specifically a discussion thread called 'should transgender athletes be allowed to compete? (yes)' might be offensive, but in this specific context it's literally the precise subject of the thread and I'd emphasize that woozy has posted from a perspective that is about as far on the permissive end of the question as it is possible to be. Currently the biggest questions from actual sporting organizations in nearly all cases is not 'should trans people be able to compete' but rather, 'how long into the transition process should they be allowed to compete.' I want to emphasize here that this question is one trans athletes themselves are discussing and, in some organizations, are themselves involved in establishing the rules. Is there somewhere I can read about trans athletes themselves discussing the question of "what if someone decides they are female the night before a competition"? Specifically, trans athletes discussing this in the context of deciding rules for organizations?
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Apr 16, 2022 17:50
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yall really, really should look at some of the links woozy has posted in here and specifically on that noteempty whippet box posted:Is there somewhere I can read about trans athletes themselves discussing the question of "what if someone decides they are female the night before a competition"? Specifically, trans athletes discussing this in the context of deciding rules for organizations? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35jKmAdwaV8 It's also covered at considerable length in here https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gender-and-fairness-in-sport/
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Apr 16, 2022 17:52
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Gumball Gumption posted:Woozy isn't a transphobe, they're just doing psudo-intellectual bs about weird hypotheticals because that's how you post in D&D. we are all goons, afterall empty whippet box posted:Is there somewhere I can read about trans athletes themselves discussing the question of "what if someone decides they are female the night before a competition"? Specifically, trans athletes discussing this in the context of deciding rules for organizations? to be more blunt, the point of the hypothetical was to use your definition in a way that showed it was meaningless in the context of sports inclusion. Everyone here argued that poo poo is much more complex, and I agree. Gotcha. Herstory Begins Now posted:bringing that up in a context that isn't specifically a discussion thread called 'should transgender athletes be allowed to compete? (yes)' might be offensive, but in this specific context it's literally the precise subject of the thread and I'd emphasize that woozy has posted from a perspective that is about as far on the permissive end of the question as it is possible to be. Currently the biggest questions from actual sporting organizations in nearly all cases is not 'should trans people be able to compete' but rather, 'how long into the transition process should they be allowed to compete.' I want to emphasize here that this question is one trans athletes themselves are discussing and, in some organizations, are themselves involved in establishing the rules. yeah this is how i feel.
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Apr 16, 2022 17:54
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The point of the hypothetical seems to be asking the question "At what point, if any, do we decide that someone's physiological advantages disqualify them from participating in a category of sports supposedly created to protect the competitive integrity of a group of people incapable of competing fairly with people who have those physiological advantages?"
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Apr 16, 2022 17:54
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I think the unspoken assumption here is that there's people who would "transition" not because of a legitimate belief that they are trans, but to gain some sort of advantage in sport. And, sorry: I just don't see it. People are cis for the same reason that people are trans: because that's their gender identity. No one's going to give up their gender identity just to compete in some sport with some advantage. Look at all the bigotry and poo poo that trans people have to put up with just because they're trans, and yet: many still decide to go ahead with transition in whatever way they feel is right for them. That's the power/importance of gender identity; it's one of the fundamental ways people -- cis and trans alike -- define themselves and act in the world. If you're willing to put yourself through that and live a continuously inauthentic life that doesn't match your gender identity, just to win some sports for a while? That's mental illness concerning the importance you place on winning things.
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Apr 16, 2022 17:54
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Gonna spend a year medically transitioning and living my life as a gender I don't feel I am to get the epic own of coming in 8th place against cisgender women when I was 8th place before.
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Apr 16, 2022 18:00
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Kroc is also an extremely relevant person in this discussion and she received an insane amount of blowback when she transitioned/was outed, albeit she in many respects trailblazed the way for trans people in strength sports. I don't believe for a second that she wouldn't have wanted to continue competing because that has literally been a huge thing for her her entire adult life but the sheer intensity of the blowback was intense and strength sports as a whole were still pretty fuckin balls deep in some unbelievably toxic masculinity bullshit in the early 2010s. They kind of still are, but the culture has come a long ways, too.
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Apr 16, 2022 18:06
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woozy pawsies posted:I'd be 2nd place in the world. Not if you are competing against other trans women.
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Apr 16, 2022 18:19
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Do people think it would be a problem if, down the road at some point, trans women were disproportionally represented in elite level women's sports? I don't know if it'll end up being the case, it seems like the preliminary data is starting to point that direction, but it's hardly conclusive yet. But I think it's a realistic enough possibility to be worth talking about now.
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Apr 16, 2022 18:39
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What preliminary data is this? Could you provide it?
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Apr 16, 2022 18:51
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Miss Broccoli posted:Mycophobia beleives in the blanchard typology and wrongly asserts that ist has not been debunked. Mycophobia is a rusted on hard out transphobe. Mycophobia was advocating that idea because a trans woman whom he's friends with convinced him of it. It's not evidence of malice toward trans people, nor have I found any context or contradictions that would indicate he has not been posting in good faith in this thread. This is why we have the rule about reporting suspected bad faith rather than trying to call it out in threads, because it can cause discussion to turn to an individual poster instead of an interesting subject, and sows mistrust. If you would like to discuss the matter further, please PM me, or if you would like to talk about the policy in public, there will be a D&D feedback thread on Friday.
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Apr 16, 2022 18:53
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